BJean

Thanks katklaws for the info.

I agree Larraine. Greed made the hit list of the Seven Deadly Sins for a darned good reason!

I take issue with the characterization that Social Security and Medicare are socialism. We have a say in these issues. We elect representatives and a president who do the work that we want done. It is why the government was structured the way it is - to give the people a say in what our government does. And the majority of people elected the politicians who have worked on this bill and caused it to be passed. They're doing what we asked them to do. They didn't lie about it. They didn't hide the educational part of it. If you are not aware of what is in a bill, it is incumbent upon you to find out what is. Then you need to make your ideas and wishes known to the your representatives in congress as well as to inform your president. If they do not do what you want, you will get an opportunity to vote them out. Unless of course YOU are in the minority and the candidate you like does not get elected by the majority. It's how this country rolls...

I think big ole' AMEN is to Cleo's... And I concur!

jre1964: "I only hope there is a True Conservative that runs in 2012. If there is a true conservative out there who runs, they will win because the American people are tired of this crap." Too bad there are so many ill-informed Americans today who are stressed that this bill passed the House! And you're wrong. The reason we have the congress and president we have today is because Americans were sick to death of the Republican-Conservative shennanigans of the past 8 years!! Now stand back and let the people who are willing to fix what is wrong with America do their jobs!

phil: "I wonder how many of our beloved Republican "friends" such as John Boehner, Mitch McConnell, Eric Cantor, Alexander Lamar,and a host of other Right Wing politicians, oh, lets not forget Jim DeMint, rammed down our throat through "reconciliation" the Tax Cuts for the Rich with a simple up and down vote that passed with a 51 vote majority in the Senate. No cry of fowl then without a 60 vote mandate! Where was the chant then by the Democrats , lets start over with a (clean piece of paper). Health Care Reform was going to be Obamas "Waterloo". Go back to your rat hole Mr DeMint. Now that your eating huge slices of (Crow Pie) with your Southern Sweet Tea, you can now refocus on your true love, God, Gays, Guns, and Fetus worship!" Much better, phil. Good points! If more of us hammered back with language more like theirs, maybe we would make some inroads with the nutheads that listen to that group. Nah, it would probably only put us on their level which is lower than low.

Being able to actually rant and rave is what makes this forum fun. But getting personal really is more like the right wingers than the left. But we can get riled enough to say things that are off-base too. It's always been amazing to me what the Rush Limbaughs, Ann Coulters and Glenn Becks can say and get away with. If we responded in kind, they would lock and load and start firing. Take Rachael Maddow for instance. She gets her point across but doesn't get personal or spew lies. She sticks with the issues and points out the fallacies. And so far, I haven't seen her bawl and stamp her feet, call anyone names. We should take debate lessons from her.

You know patty, anger and resentment and distrust isn't just reserved for Republicans. There are Democrats who are just as angry and distrusting. Because they put up with 8 years of the Bush administration selling 'we the people" down the river. He took away many of the freedoms we hold dear. He took us into a war that put us in enormous debt. He subsidized some of the most profitable corporations in the world. He cut spending on programs that regular Americans expect from their government - programs that made this country great. His presidency cost the country and individual Americans dearly. And he did most of it behind the scenes without regular Americans' knowledge. And the stuff he did out in the open was rigged. Just like the anti-health care change movement has been. And Republicans today have the unmitigated gall to accuse the majority in congress of "ramming" this bill through? After the Democrats gave in to Republicans in so many ways on the health care bill. What fools! Republicans need to be taken out back and given a good whipping. They need to sit in the corner and think about their behavior. They need to repent and work for the people - not just for themselves. They need to stop talking trash and bashing anyone who disagrees with them. They need to argue merits and philosophy in the debates instead of the childish name-calling and fear mongering they've become famous for. The Republicans and right wing extremists need to step back and see themselves for what they've become. And maybe public flogging isn't too off base. Or short of that, maybe the left wing progressives need to stand up to the creeps and push back when they push us in a fight. This is definitely an empowering moment - even if the media continues to fuel the fire.

Chris of NJ, why don't you go look up socialism? What the congress has done is not socialism. But keep telling yourself that if it makes you feel smart.

They are still screaming this morning that this is not what Americans want. They are assuming that because they didn't want it, the majority of Americans didn't want it. The Rush Limbaughs, Glenn Becks, Ann Coulters and all the maniacs on the internet who are helping to incite hatred have done a job on a lot of Americans, but I do not think that they have convinced the MAJORITY of Americans that we didn't need a drastic change in our health care system. The thing that they've accomplished is to put fear in Americans, fear and distrust of the government. They have gone so far as to incite someone to throw money at a man disabled with Parkinsons, call Barney Frank a faggot, spit on a congressman and yell nigger at black people. And these are only the few incidents that were recorded on video. No telling what all really went on out of camera range. Unfortunately by inciting this kind of anger, it is going to take a long time for Americans to sort out their feelings on this. It may effect the upcoming elections, but in the long run I hope that people will endorse a party that is willing to work on the very difficult problems that we have in America. The Republicans refused to take care of them when they were the majority party. They took us into a war that was unfounded and cost thousands of our own Americans' deaths. They believe in keeping everything deregulated in business - including the health insurance industry. Our health care system is broken for millions and millions of Americans. It has failed them. They have either not been able to get the kind of health care they need or they have (after paying premiums) paid out of their own pocket for treatments and in many cases that caused them to lose their homes and other things that they worked long and hard to get. The Republicans let us down. The Republicans endorse corporate greed and making middle and low income Americans pay a higher price for everything they get. They have put themselves in this situation and the MAJORITY of Americans finally get it. That's why we threw the bums out and if the MAJORITY of Americans vote them back in, then they will be ignoramuses that get what they deserve. It seems to me that Americans have taken enough of a beating that they will not make that same mistake again. Unless of course, the Republicans pull the same crap they pulled in the 2000 election and rig the vote and it doesn't matter how the MAJORITY of Americans vote anyway.

Alex, I'm still wondering if you'll tell us what specifically you were talking about, above.

I just heard that jackass John Cornyn say that Americans don't want this and he threatened retaliation of sorts. What is wrong with these mean-spirited, vicious people? People don't want greed to rule anymore. People want fairness in government. They're sick to death of the tea baggers, deathers, birthers and racist hate mongers!! Congratulations Cleo's. I know you've worked for this and I am proud of you and the others who did their part in helping Americans get a fair shake with their health care system.

Alex, please enlighten us with the specifics.

I would love to say that there are Republicans that are better than the worst Democrats in congress, but right now I can't think of one. The regular people don't matter to the Republicans and they have done a job on vulnerable Americans who have fallen for the hype. It has made no difference at all to the Republicans that every argument they have made has been repudiated soundly. On a far far smaller scale, it is the same here at LBT with the people who are drinking the Republican kool-aide. No matter how much logic or relevant material has been posted that would influence an unbiased voter, certain people just keep repeating the same revolting nonsense and regurgitating the Reagenisms ad nauseum. As for the tea baggers who have totally lost it and are insulting a man who has Parkinsons and people who disagree with them and using bigoted language against those of a different race, they better cool off or this thing is going to wind up with such a backlash at the polls that it will make their heads swim.

Leisha, great to know that I'm not a lone wolf in this incredibly conservative state. It is cool to know that not only are you here but you actually make a lot of good points when you post. Way cool. High five!

Coloradobanding, are you trying to tell me I don't have a life? :-) The great thing about going to rants and raves is that you're probably not having any problems with your band or you'd be spending all your time in the forum section asking others if they have experienced whatever it is that's troubling you. So seeing you here is a good thing! And besides I really like what you had to say.

patty unless you've been introduced to phil in person, he doesn't know you personally. He only knows what you post. And he obviously very strongly dislikes the things you post. He isn't alone. He just says how he feels. Most of us try to hold back a little. You've been provoked from time to time and said things that you've had to apologize for. So you, of all people, should understand how phil could get so angry or disgusted that he says things that are very harsh. Again, they're directed at your posts and if you choose to take them personally, that's up to you. But if you can't stand the heat....

"...you are dillusional." sez patty. Nice, real nice.

[quote name='pattygreen; Ins. companies don't drop people who get sick. They must pay for your care as long as you continue to make your premium payments on time and in full. If you lapse at all' date=' then they don't have to cover you.[/color'] On another note, Ins. companies try to invest in people who are healthy. That makes sense for them in the business. This is why they don't want to cover people with pre-existing conditions. What planet have you been living on patty? You seem to have this pollyanna vision of what the insurance companies are to Americans in this country. They are the evildoers. They are the ones who have caused the health care system breakdown. They have done it with high powered lawyers, high powered lobbyists and they've been able to to it because they make billions in profit every year. If you haven't been screwed by the insurance industry, then lucky you. But most Americans have in one way or another. Too bad you are unable to understand what universal health care really is and what it would mean to this country. Too bad you believe all the hype and lies that the insurance companies have flooded the country with. Sucker.

I too have noticed that patty doesn't seem to get a reprimand when she hurls personal insults, but when someone hurls them back, we get called on the carpet. I am crying foul! I agree that the mods seem afraid of her. It's probably because they figure she'll lash out at them and tell them they're going to hell. Unfair! This is rants and raves and everyone should be able to speak their mind. If someone can't handle it then they are the ones who should quietly get back off the thread. There have been times in the past when I was completely outnumbered on a thread and terrible things, personal things, were said to me. I didn't whine to the mods. I just opted off the thread. Several others pm'd me and told me that I was in the right, but they weren't willing to say it in the open forum because they didn't want to be singled out like I had been. You need to be tough to play here. You need to be able to not take things personally. Afterall, we all know that none of us REALLY knows each other. We only know what we've posted. So when someone hurls an insult, it is because of something you've said that provoked it not because the poster actually dislikes you personally.

Leigha, good point. But it is obvious that logic and common sense do not work with patty and those like her. They are just against health care reform and that's that. They can't be swayed by the facts or common sense. We do need to reduce the deficit. We do need to keep down government spending. But not in an area that costs Americans' lives. There are any number of areas where cuts can be made. But when it comes to having health care vs. Americans not having health care or having lousy health care, that's not where the cuts need to be made. We need a better health care system. We need better schools and teachers. We need to rebuild the infrastructure of the U.S. We need to address environmental issues. We need to take care of the business of all Americans that were woefully neglected during the Bush years. We need to get out of Iraq and Afghanistan - that would be a start in cutting back. And then we need to do an across the board assessment of programs where cuts can be made. And we probably need to raise taxes. But before that, the subsidies of wealthy corporations needs to stop and the tax breaks to the wealthy must cease. Start with those things and you'd be surprised how quickly the deficit gets back under control. Clinton figured out how to do it after the lousy stinking Reagan years. Now this president has to get busy and pull us out of the mire. But people who are against health care reform are whistling in the wind. The insurance industry went too far and this is all on them.

I just read your last post. Barbaric is not too strong a word for your attitude in the health care debate.

patty: " barbarism? Oh brother! "This is where you are wrong. We do support HC reform. Just not the reform the president wants, which, ultimately in the long run, leads to government run HC for everyone or at least one more step closer to it." How can you claim I am wrong? We've debated the very issues I'm referring to and you support capital punishment and you believe that wars are necessary. You've even tried to justify the war in Iraq for a very long time after even Bush's cronies admitted that they were wrong. Barbarism is not a stretch. And for you to defend the insurance companies right to gouge us is barbaric in light of the current health care conditions in this country and how it affects so many people. You say you aren't against health care reform but from the very beginning of this debate, you have been dead set against it and the arguments that you put forth have never presented one iota of proof that you are serious about coming up with a better plan. The Republicans are full of bull$hite on this and I do not respect your previous post one bit because you do not take responsibility for supporting them in this fight. You say you want change. What a joke. You only want change if it means that the insurance companies can continue to be in charge of my health care and only if it doesn't cost you personally one red cent. You don't want change. You've already said that you do not believe that people have a right to health care in America. You're all for the status quo. Especially if that means that the president fails in his attempt to make things better for mainstream America. You are just full of it. __________________

One of the most heartbreaking things about the Republicans saying that no one has a right to health care, is to know that they are the ones who chose to spend billions and billions of dollars to kill people in the streets of Iraq. They totally support war. The say that the collateral damage is just a necessary component of war. They say they support our troops, but how is insuring that thousands die in an unjust war, supporting them? They support barbarism. But they do not support changing a health care system that is not working for anyone but the wealthy in America and the health care providers and insurance companies who are killing us with their greed.

patty: "I could dig up just as many videos and pictures of liberals doing similar crap at rallys when Bush was President. If I did, you would just tell me that a small minority of people in your party don't speak for the majority of you. That's all I can say when you relentlessly bring about videos of conservatives protesting. There are a very small minority of jerks in every party. Why don't you try to show us here on LBT that you're not a jerk like that? Why don't you try to be more mature in your hatred for those who don't take your side? Why do you feel the incessive need to belittle those who don't agree with you? So what? Some guy was being a jerk at a protest. I bet if you looked at other videos from that day you could find a liberal at that same protest being a jerk too." patty, nothing about what you've said, above in quotes, excuses those people's behavior. If you can find someone behaving as badly on the Democratic side, please, I challenge you, bring it here and we can discuss it. __________________