BJean

It is very stupid to write people off as mentally insane just because you do not agree with them or because you think that they are too extreme in their beliefs and the way they choose to act on their beliefs. By the way, the word christianity can be looked up in the Bible. You didn't invent the word and your definition is not the strict definition of the word.

Ah if only it were true, patty. Then we wouldn't have to argue about capital punishment. We don't put mentally ill people to death. That's why they have the "not guilty by reason of insanity" defense. Everyone who kills isn't insane. And everyone who invokes passages from the Bible to justify their deeds aren't mentally ill either. We may not always understand their motivation for doing those things but many are just very selfish, self-important and very misguided people.

Yay Cleo's. Once again you bring relevant data to the discussion. I wish some of the news media were as diligent about including relevant historical data when they're writing controversial stories to report. A few do, but a very few. Probably too much work and of course, not as shocking.

Well that's true Leigha. But I also believe that they are disengenuous in their stupid sloganeering. (I'm pretty sure I made that word up. Hmmm, it seems to describe what they've been doing though.)

Some of patty's links and photos remind me of this quote by Lane. "He [she] uses statistics as a drunken man uses lamp-posts... for support rather than illumination." - Andrew Lang (1844-1912)

Listening to the tea baggers is like listening to the losing team after a big loss - "we were robbed" "the umpire sucked" "those guys cheated" "no fair!!" When there's a bunch of bad sports bellyaching after a loss, you don't hear them take responsibility for the loss. It's always everybody elses fault and the winners cheated. Why didn't the tea baggers work as hard on winning and seeing to it that their representatives worked at fixing the health care system instead of just saying "no" and whining about what awful people the winning players were?

The hyprocrisy in the Catholic Church has always been a problem. Now that the Pope himself has been shown to have put the church before its' parishoners health and well being is almost unthinkable! If any of these priests had been teachers in a public school, the uproar and anger would have been played out in the news media and in our communities to the point that Americans would be calling for public lynchings. There's nothing much worse than for someone who has influence over a child, for them to sexually abuse those children. Children look to adults for guidance. They consider adults the ones who are there to teach them to do the right thing in all ways. We have a friend whose son attended a Baptist Church elementary school in Tampa, Florida. They didn't find out about their son's sexual abuse by one of the male teachers until after he was grown and had been in the Army (in a bomb disposal unit) for several years. He came home from the desert a wreck. It took many nights of drinking alcohol, hand wringing and support by his parents before he could unburden himself of the horrific things that happened to him when he was a child at the hands of that teacher. Can you imagine that scenario? Can imagine that happening to your child? They did their research and learned that the same teacher who abused their son was still a teacher at that school. How many years did that vile human being commit disgusting acts on boys who relied on him? How many other parents learned what that man did to their own sons over the years? Anyone who didn't report it and anyone who swept it under the rug is just as culpable as the pedophile himself as far as I'm concerned. John is still in therapy - too many years after his first discussion with his parents about the sexual assault against him when he was a child. The Pope and everyone involved need to be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. Otherwise when will it ever cease?

I just finished typing a post on another thread about this. Why do Americans feel safe from foreign terrorists when the terrorists we should fear the most are right next door to us?

Now everybody can't be absolutely right, can they? What is needed is faith, personal commitment and trust. When someone speaks in absolutes whether they are protestant, Catholic, Muslim or any other faith, they must remember that they are only believing what THEY feel comfortable with and what makes sense to them. That's one reason why there are so many faiths. If the Bible were actually written by the hand of God, as some believe, then we wouldn't need to have all the religious debates and we probably wouldn't have so many non-believers. Because if the Bible had actually been written by God, we would have proof and not have to rely on faith alone. So everyone must choose for him or her self. And there are many choices and ways to interpretet the Bible and other religious books, ad infinatim. But what every person of faith must understand (and there are so many, many fanatics who do not understand this) YOU do not have all the answers. YOU offer no proof whatsoever - you only have what you believe to sustain you and to guide you. And you must never declare that your way is the only way! You must respect other faiths because they represent real people's beliefs. And although you may not believe that they are right with all your heart, their faith is, in fact, just as valid as your own. Now I know you look at other religions around the world and you can't understand how in the world a person could embrace their very strange "good book" as the true way, truth and light. But that is not for you to say. You are not annointed as the prophet sent from heaven to convert all souls to your faith. If you had been sent from God, you would be perfect and sinless and none of us is. So we must allow each other our various beliefs and we must respect each other and treat each other as God's children, no matter what we believe. There are people who believe that the Bible is simply a literary work, filled with parables and fascinating stories to give it the kind of merit one would need to adopt faith in God and the Bible. Those people too, deserve our respect and their intellect and education may serve them well in this life. They may in fact, be much better people than some religious extremists who are hell bent on destruction of those who do not agree with their beliefs. So it is up to us to become aware, to qestion everything and resolve in our own mind and soul, just exactly what we believe and which God we follow - or if we follow no God. Religion has been one of the reasons that countries go to war. And it has been one of the reasons that terrorists are motivated to kill other human beings. So it's not surprising that we might disagree here and try to verbally duke it out. It's healthy to discuss our differences but what we always must remember is to respect one another in the debate. Otherwise, we are in jeapordy of becoming an extremist who eventually, in frustration, finds ourselves disliking people of other faiths so much that eventually we even wish to harm those of other faiths. And my most important message is for religion to be kept out of our government. With these kinds of differences in our very basic, very basic, beliefs there is a good chance that we too could become as crazed and angry as some of the terrorists around the world. And if that happened, our country too could become a killing field. Reading this morning about some of the events that were planned by a number of Americans in this country only goes to show that religious zealots exist here, just like they exist in the middle east. So you know I am right about learning tolerance and respect. Those zealots did not start out just reading the Bible. It was a journey that brought them to this point. And along the way they lost respect for not only people from other churches but also anyone who specifically does not agree with their very rigid personal beliefs.

And btw, Sarah Palin should be crowned the queen of the tea baggers! She is definitely the source of some of their slogans, bitterness and anger.

Don't be so quick to say that Americans won't vote for craziness. Those wackos (very wealthy wackos) managed to get John Kerry defeated by calling him everything but the war hero he was. If they are capable of pulling that off, I sure don't put anything past them. You should look back at the elections over the past 40 years, including the primaries, and you will see what dastardly deeds the Republicans are capable of and willing to do to stay in power. Do not under estimate people who are willing to do anything for money and power, no matter how dishonest or illegal it might be.

Churches have become bastions of all things political. Church members are told how and why and for whom to vote. Ministers rail against any candidate or policy that goes against their own belief system. And the Pope tells everybody in the Catholic church exactly what they are expected do politically. As long as politics are conducted from the pulpits in America, then they should not be tax free entities.

patty if you want to find out how things get done in Washington, on the hill, I suggest you get hold of some biographies or even autobiographies written about various historical political figures. In fact, there have even been some made for TV movies to that effect. To suggest that anything that happened during the process of getting the healthcare reform legislation passed is unique to this congress or president is simply ignorant. Ignorant of the facts.

Two thumbs up!

eek indeed!

Sharon, what you said! I notice patty didn't read my church rant or she would have known that I said most churches survive because they keep their congregations, parishoners, et. al., burdened with guilt. I was not speaking of a church that I attend today. The only reason I said not all churches are heavily invested in guilt peddling is because I know of a Unitarian church that doesn't preach guilt and negativity. But after having been to lots and lots of different churches (including Pentacostal) they generally keep their members feeling guilty. That's how it's done. That's how it works. That's how they keep the money in the coffers. And it's how they keep people coming back every week. And all you have to do is listen to people discuss religion on television and/or people throughout your own community to know that it is a widespread practice and not just one church. And some of the people who rant about religion here at LBT reveal just how endoctrinated and guilty they truly are.

The President doesn't look at Americans - any Americans - as his enemies. He looks at them as his fellow citizens. The fact that some folks disagree with him on certain issues is to be expected. But for governors of states to act like they have a case, when they know it is a bogus and illegal claim, is expected to generate some kind of response from the president. When he said bring it on, he meant that there is no way that a lawsuit like that has any merit in fact and if it is filed, he will welcome the chance to show the lunacy and political prejudice of it.

Leigha the basic lack of knowledge and brain power of the individual who wrote that is stunning. It also shows how ignorant people are about the illegal alien problem in our country. The Republicans got everyone all up in arms about it when they needed something to take the heat off another of their dirty deeds. At the time you would have thought that the problem just sprung up in the past couple of years.

And tea bag demonstrators are lumped in together because they march and demonstrate together. The fact that the Republicans and Limbaugh and O'Reilly and Beck and others have helped to incite the tea bagging behavior and before all the criticism happened, they said the tea baggers were doing the right thing, is proof that they deserve to be lumped together. Just because all of a sudden they're saying people shouldn't be violent carries no weight with me. They incited this behavior and they LIKE it. Nobody in her right mind would excuse them for it at this point. And some of the major players in the Republican party endorsed the behavior of the tea baggers, the deathers, etc., also indicate that they deserve to be lumped in with them. As for these pictures and claims that you've made about concrete being dropped on Republicans and all that is a mystery because we don't know anything about them - who they are and what organization backed them financially and encouraged them to do that is a mystery. Just posting pictures isn't very impressive without data regarding the organization behind the demonstration.

patty I do not know Cleo's. We are not in cahoots. We post some of the same thoughts for a reason. And it isn't because we have some kind of conspiracy to make right wing extremists look stupid or crazy. Just like on your side of the spectrum, there are people who say some of the same things you say. Doesn't mean you're in a conspiracy to further your agenda.

Hey, just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they aren't out to get you.

I wouldn't be surprised. She's the one who thought of it. I have a feeling that she doesn't understand the term "impeach" As for Cleo's post with all the signs, it's obvious that some of those signs were professionally made. And some of the slogans are too politically saavy to just come from some random citizen who's disgruntled with the health care reform bill. I feel sure that there is some really big money behind a lot of this. Smacks of the same nasty political thinking as the Swift Boat freaks.

I disagree. Nothing is as bad as being racist. Or as stupid. Sounds to me like you're trying to do the very thing that you are complaining about by insinuating that my use of the term tea bagger somehow equates to being a racist. My calling the tea baggers that instead of the TEA PARTY stems from my lack of respect for them and especially because they try to identify themselves with an event that has no relation whatsoever to what they're doing. So I consider that name, THE TEA PARTY to be a misnomer. And I consider them worthy of my distain no matter what nutball demonstrators from the left do. What's wrong with calling them tea baggers anyway? They adopted a name that they absolutely do not deserve to use. They're trying to compare themselves to events in Boston when early Americans demonstrated against the Crown. But dumping tea into the harbor isn't exactly the same as threatening bodily harm or shouting a racial slur or suggesting throwing bricks through windows or suggesting that our president is a Muslim or that he isn't an American born citizen or attempting to subvert the legal process of passing legislation. Sorry dude, I agree that we shouldn't generalize and lump the tea party in with the entire party of Republicans. And I said so, in an earlier post. But as I also said, the Republican party has brought this on themselves. And none of this is is an effort to say that there are no people from the left side of the argument who are guilty of doing bad things. Certainly there are. And trust me, I have just as much contempt for them as I do for the right wing wackos.

This is also very disturbing to me. And the support of the extremists comes from the very top of the GOP, Steele. It seems there is no hope for moderately conservative people these days. And some of your everyday Republicans are angry at Democrats because they've been lumped in with the nutjobs. But what else can be expected when the people who run the party and who are Republicans on a national level of government fully endorse extremism rather than true debate?

You people are awesome and just made my day!!! I so seldom have contact with people who get it. It is a very unpopular thing to say but I believe that our churches are a source of right wing propaganda too and people are exposed to their preachers (aptly named) on a regular basis. Churches have a huge investment in keeping people guilt ridden and down. Now I know that there are churches that are making an effort to actually address personal and social issues in a more positive way. But I do not think that the majority of churches in America that work that way. When support of the right wing extremist, anti-abortion, anti-homosexual, etc., stance comes from your minister, who are you to doubt him? And often he or she quotes scripture to support those declarations. To criticize the Bible or your miinister (or the Pope) is blaspheme, right? My goodness wonderer, you're awfully young to have figured out so much of this political/governmental stuff. Kudos! And leroy you're smack dab on point with that last post. Same goes for phil, Leigha and Cleo's. Like I said you all made my day!