BJean

What the heck? Who wrote this? Where was it published? Is it a reliable source? Did YOU write it?

Well Chris some churches are not motivated by goodness and they are do not contribute to the overall good of mankind. See Leigh's post about the scrambling the church is doing trying to divert attention away from the Pope's behavior before he became Pope. If they made a clean brest of things and offered up the perps for prosecution and made restitution to the individuals who were abused, then they would be contributing to the overall good. Oh yeah, and if they made absolutely sure none of their priests ever abused children again that would help.

Good post, Cleo's

patty: "1/3 are government temporary jobs and 1/3 or so are Census hires that are temporary. They end in a month or so, then we're right back to unemployment. The only jobs that count are private secter permanent jobs." What? Back to unemployment? That would presume that the 9.7% unemployment rate right now doesn't represent unemployed people. Makes no sense.

Who is John Ellis, quoted in post 1143? Where was it published originally?

WELL SAID, KARTMAN! :thumbup:

You sure could be right, Leigha about people preferring to work for small businesses rather than large corporations. But I don't think that is why this became an issue that the right wing glommed onto. It is simply one more thing that they can do to put fear in middle class Americans. But the gambit comes from large corporate entities that simply do not want the regulation or subsidies that the left wing wants to put on them. They've enjoyed a long run with having free reign to do business pretty much however they want to in America. They've realized billions by having governmental support to do it. In the past, the theory they used to sell capitalistic greed to the middle class was that if the large corporations do well, it will trickle down to all of the middle and lower income folks. Well, it has been long enough now for Americans to realize, for sure, that trickle down doesn't work. So the powers that be (big money) had to find a different way to incentivize Americans to keep them as big and powerful and lucrative as they have been. So that's why this hype about health care reform harming small businesses is such a core part of their campaign. Get the American middle class to support the idea of a free capitalistic society because it is unAmerican to put regulations on them. Get the middle class to embrace the idea that reigning in the insurance companies, for instance, will harm small businesses. Put out all kinds of false and misleading information to support their claims so as to scare the owners of mom and pop businesses enough to make them join in demonstrations and carry placards. That's is what the tea party is about. It has come about by big business people using lots and lots of corporate money and organization ahead of the movement so that middle income Americans will fall in step with the slogans and ideas that they put forth, which will influence more and more Americans to think that there really is substance behind the hype. One would have to be an idiot to think that all those professionally made signs and demonstrations were really organized and funded by mom and pop small business owners. Sorry, I got a little carried away with my rant.

I have been thinking the same thing. Wouldn't it be interesting if they lost seats and governorships rather than gained. It won't happen. But I do hope that people who are sick and tired of this will get out and vote and not just stay home because they become apathetic. Or feel overwhelmed by it all.

Well it isn't unconstitutional if it is done to ensure the rights that other Americans have to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Relevant word being "life." Same with car insurance, as I said before that someone pooh-poohed. When we learn through human behavior, that people need to have rules to protect themselves and others, we have seen fit to enact legislation or pass local laws to do it. Helmet laws are similar and nut balls everywhere, who ride motorcycles without helmets are still up in arms about that one. Live free or die, eh? Well if your motorcycle slams into my SUV, and gets blood all my ride, that just ain't right. Duh, Bubba.

Well I don't know that this incident with Mitt Romney's dog is necessarily an indication of the man's capacity for cruelty. He sure doesn't seem like the brightest bulb on the porch and he may intellectually be more like the Chevy Chase character in "Vacation" than anyone wants to admit. But that being said, it certainly doesn't preclude the thought that he is a person who has the capacity to be inhuman to other human beings either.

Well I'm not sure who you're talking about but he would probably be surprised to know that millions of Americans feel like you and I do. You know what they say about denial... I hope you and Leisha will keep bringing good information to the attention of everyone here even for those who just lurk but don't post.

patty it's really not wise to accuse someone else of commiting the same behavior of which you yourself are guilty. Because Cleo's can back up her statements. She cites the source of her information. She doesn't post sound bytes she's heard from some crazy left wing idiot. We know that she's a passionate progressive who believes in the Democratic ideals. But we also know she's smart enough to tell people her sources and let them read for themselves who said it and where it was published. She isn't just posting her feelings - like I mostly do. She's posting factual information. It's folly to pick on her.

Hard working regular Republicans, like my husband, who are not embroiled in the political debates because they are busy keeping their noses to the grindstone do not take the time to listen to people like Ann Coulter, Rush Limbaugh, Glenn Beck or Fox news at all. They are aware that there are crackpots out there who are extremist in their viewpoints but they don't take them seriously and they sure don't spend a lot of time worrying about them. I will be happy to bring this article to his attention because nothing I have said convinces him that the mainstream conservatives in this country have a big, big problem. Most of them who are aware of the fanaticism and are intelligent, do not even claim to be Republican these days. They tell people they are "Independents" because it is too embarrassing to say they are part of what's going on in the Republican party. There used to be a fringe element in the Republican party that people ignored. But now it has become very well funded and organized. It has been easy for that fringe element to grow and win believers because they all have a common enemy, the president of the United States. Once a person has decided that part of what the crazies yell is true, it isn't hard for them to decide that everything the right wingers profess is true. And there is safety in numbers. And the bigger the numbers the stronger it makes all of them feel and the more RIGHT it makes them think they are. If we don't keep calling them on their lies, the more followers they will recruit. So I thank you Leigha for sharing the link to the article you found. I hope everyone who is reading here will go there and take the time to read it.

Word to your mother. (as my dd would say)

This is the post that my last two posts are related to. I came to the party late tonight. Sorry.

What you refuse to understand is that we do not want the government controlling our basic rights to life and liberty or the pursuit of happiness. The government has no right to control a woman's right to life. Yes, I know you think that a fetus's life is more important than a woman's. But we disagree on that issue and you will never convince me and I will never convince you. I believe a lot of it has to do with the way we are hardwired in our brains. Compare it to the colors we prefer, the foods we like, the kind of person we want as a spouse, and even belief in a religious faith or belief in no religion at all. And so many more things that make us individuals are things that are influenced by the way our brains are hardwired. It's very interesting and worth as much in-depty study as one has time for. But so much about our brains and basic physiology (including why some people become obese) is still an unknown territory. Having the government see to it that people have enough health care in America to provide a basic standard of living is not something that relates to the question of a woman's right to choose. Honestly, it just does not. This is just another stupid diatribe that a person has written to justify their rigid stand on abortion.

What's your source? Who's the author?

Well no not really. I'm willing to listen to reason and truth. I actually learn a lot from honest debate. Ive always enjoyed hearing the opposing side of arguments because it helps me to understand where they're coming from. But I'm not willing to listen to and believe rethoric and misstatements and misrepresentations of the facts. I'm not willing to give equal time to crazed nuts who have been inspired to work themselves into a frenzy. (and I think you meant to say "as ARE yours"

I honestly don't think they will be happy until some wacko like Timothy McVeigh assasinates the president!!

Holy Mother of God. Even they have topped themselves this time. I've always said they would stop at nothing but I guess I thought there were some level-headed folks who could keep it from getting too out of hand. I was wrong about that.

There are much better informed minds than ours who are debating this very issue. I think we can go back and forth on this until the world looks level and still won't come up with a definitive answer. It's going to take time and work for these things to reveal what they're actually going to mean in the long run. It's a guessing game to some extent on both sides. You're always going to bellyache about the government and nothing anyone here says will change that or cause one iota of reconsideration on your part as to the value of passing the health care reform legislation. Your heels are dug in and that's that.

Oh. Okay.

rodriguez the way our military has been treated, having to do tours in Iraq as many as five times, is absolutely horrible. And calling up our reserves and treating them like regular Army is horrible too. We have really depleted our personnel and the families of our soldiers have paid a very high price as well. I know that wars are not only for trying to resolve political problems but they also have to do with economics in the U.S. What I know for sure is that war and killing is bad and should be avoided at all costs. But that doesn't seem to be the American way. And we're told that it is what keeps us the strongest nation on earth. However I think we're missing the boat by depleting our Armed forces to this extent and we're going to pay an enormous price for it later. Of course we've already paid an enormous price just for Iraq alone both in personnel and for the billions we spent every month to keep us there. It makes me sick to my stomach that guys like Bush and Cheney managed to send our men and women off to possibly die or be maimed in a senseless war. And they personally aren't having to pay a price for having done it. And in fact, I have no doubt whatever that they both profited from it. The new president is having to deal with the hand that was dealt him. I don't believe that he is pro-war at all. I do think that he's been briefed that we need a presence in Afghanistan to prevent certain things from escalating. I hope he will get us out of there as soon as it is practical!

Oh no you were not. We were discussing the militant terrorists who had gotten busted. Besides, don't put words in my mouth. I have never called those who were at meetings and got loud or those who thew a rock as terrorists. I have always referred to them as extremists or right wingers. You can run but you cannot hide.

You know rodriguez, I don't think that Afghanistan is worse than Iraq. And I understand why he thinks we can accomplish something in Afghanistan. But if we pay attention to the history of war in Afghanistan, it is easy to think we're just pouring money down a rat hole. And I too wish we'd get the heck out of that mess. Guess it all has to do with Al Queda and Pakistan and Israel and Iran, etc., and other things that are pretty complicated and sensitive. But I detest war and especially one against a country that has not attacked us.