BJean

Carlene: How long ago was your husband's marriage annuled? I'm wondering if over the years, the church has softened a little on the matter of annulment. We certainly did not have the choice of whether to pay for my annulment. I never spoke with my ex about his or his family's responses to the paperwork. I don't even know if they did the questionnaires. My ex did call me when he received them and whined that it would take too long to answer all those questions, etc. Besides, as far as his church affiliation was concerned, he and I would always be married, no matter what. I don't know if his current wife accepts that premise, however. Hmmm, another thought... perhaps the Southern Baptist Church has decided to recognize civil divorces nowadays. Since I've been saved and Baptised in the Baptist Church it doesn't really matter to me, I am never going to Hell anyway.

L8BloomR: It is really nice to hear your very positive comments about the role the Catholic Church has played in your successful marriage and family. I've also appreciated hearing Carlene's favorable remarks about the Church. We do not have bad feelings toward the Catholic Church and if we decide to go to church, that's where we'll go. But we do have negative feelings about some of the clergy in the Catholic Church and how they have affected us personally over the years. I know some people are able to overlook those types of things and write them off to "man" made decisions, not Biblical ones. We made a choice not to accept much of what we feel are poor decisions, and so since we are at odds with the Church in that way, we generally prefer to stay home. I admit that I miss attending mass from time to time, but then someone tells me something or I hear of bad things in the press, I know that for me, I am doing the right thing. Sunta: Although both of our kids are Catholic, neither of them will go to church at all anymore. Their decisions have nothing to do with our influencing them. We didn't stop attending mass until after they were grown, and until they made their own personal decisions about attending church, we never spoke a negative word about a priest or a sermon in front of them. They both decided, of their own volition, that the Catholic Church is based on many principles that they feel are not in the best interests of the Church's parishoners. I am very proud that they have the ability to think for themselves.

Thanks for the update. The bathtub incidents sound gruesome. I have a sneaking feeling that her baby girl will suffer from too much exposure to greed, but we can only hope.

Wheetsin: Well my first husband didn't physically beat me, but there was definitely some abuse, both physical and mental. When I realized that the hunk I had just met was a Catholic, I decided I shouldn't date him for the very reason that you stated; I was a divorced woman with a child. We were both transplants to Virginia from the Southwest and knew very few people. We kept seeing each other in group situations and we both decided that we could see each other and go places together without marriage in mind. Well that didn't work out the way we planned it. I worked in the Attorney General's office in Richmond and knew someone who was personal friends with the Priest in Washington, D.C. who was the ultimate decision-maker for the Catholic Church in the U.S. with regard to marriage, annulment, divorce, etc. When we got an appointment and sat down in his office and told him that we were in love and that we wanted to get married, he grinned and said, "Well, we don't excommunicate for that anymore." I nearly fell off my chair. He went on to tell us that if John decided to marry me, he would no longer be able to partake of communion, or of any of the sacraments in the Church. He said that they wouldn't ban him from attending services, but that in their eyes, he was not someone who would be eligible to be a Catholic the way he had been. And as for me, I would not be eligible to go through instructions to become a Catholic, nor would I be able to ever become a Catholic. We got married in a non-denominational University chapel by a Judge who was a friend. We lived in Petersburg, VA, at that time a very conservative parish. They would not allow my son (even after John formally adopted him) to attend pre-school or parocial school at the Catholic Church we had attended before and after we were married. There were non-Catholic children who were allowed to attend, but none whose parents were openly defiant of the Church doctrine against divorce, as we obviously were. When we moved to a small town in Arizona, the Priests were far more liberal and accommodating to their parishioners. We attended classes set up for, shall I say disenfranchised, couples. We petitioned the Church for an annulment of my first marriage. With plenty of money involved, and lots of questionnairs completed by my entire family, as well as my ex and his family, I was granted an annulment by the Catholic Church. John could now take communion and I could consider becoming a Catholic (like my children). Several other things had happened in the meantime, like a Priest in Lubbock denying my brother-in-law and sister-in-law getting their baby christened because they had not been using envelopes since they moved into the city and started attending the Church there. (They had moved to Lubbock during her pregnancy, she was unable to go every Sunday, and they just had not taken the time or effort to register yet.) Both of them were strong Catholics with Catholic schooling and from very devout Catholic families. My experiences are not as uncommon as I used to think they were.

letheaG: I do not believe that all Southern Baptist churches have identical approaches, but I am curious. How does your pastor suggest that women and men behave in marriage? My experience was 40 years ago. I probably should have qualified my earlier post by mentioning that. Things may have changed in the Southern Baptist Church since then. But that approach was universal within the S.B. Church back then - at least in Oklahoma. The man I married the second time around is Catholic. We went to the Catholic Church most of our married lives and our children became Catholics and attended parocial schools. We moved around the country quite a lot and one Catholic Church we attended in northern Virginia (Chantilly) had a priest who was a real kook. He told us one Sunday morning that a woman had come to him complaining of a husband who slapped her, repeatedly, and that she wanted to divorce him. The Priest said (from the pulpit) that he called her husband in and altogether they had a counseling session where he explained to the wife that divorce was never allowed. He said that he told her that she should always forgive her husband for his transgressions. He went on to deliver a homily addressing the issue in depth. He never mentioned that the husband needed to change his behavior, just that the wife should. I should also tell you that it created an uproar that the Bishop heard. The kooky Priest was transferred to a tiny little parish out in the toolies. Maybe I'm more sensitive to things that I believe are done and said to keep me subservient or that make me feel like I am inferior in some way. Maybe I'm just living too much in the past. But if you wonder why I am a Christian but not a current member of any congregation, my bad experiences from the 60s and 70s are the reason. I should probably give organized religion another chance, since I am sure things have changed in the past 40 years. My husband and I talk about it from time to time, but when we think about all the things that have been done by people who run organized religion, in the name of the Bible, we just aren't ready. I mentioned some of the other troubling events on a different post... there have been many more than the couple I've talked about here.

I was also wondering if about the TrimSpa lawsuit. Any answers out there?

Yesterday I saw the dietician and she always has me fill out a form to answer various questions. At the bottom of the form there is a question that asks if you ever cough up a white substance and if so, when does it happen? I checked the "no" box. But last night after I drank a Protein shake, I did cough up some white stuff and I realized that it isn't the first time I've done that. In fact, sometimes I do it quite often. This morning I am still coughing up a little. Does anyone know the significance of this? I'm getting worried that it may indicate something serious and couldn't sleep overnight worrying about it. My doctor's office isn't open yet and I just wondered if anyone out there has a clue about this. Dr. C, are you around this morning?

Hey great thread!! Fantastic photos! Wish I had the equipment to post photos of my two hounds of the baskerville - nah, really they're Min. Schnauzers - Sophie and Maggie. Maggie is 6 and Sophie is 5. My husband is allergic to cats and most dogs and we lived in the humid south where fleas were a major problem so our kids didn't have pets until they brought out Sentinel and we found dogs that didn't shed. Now my husband is sillier about these dogs than any pet owner could be. He gives them their baths and walks them every day. Maggie is one of those dogs who has that sixth sense of knowing when you feel down or are sick. She won't leave your side and has the most empathetic eyes in the world! When my dad was ailing and using a walker, Maggie would "escort" dad from room to room and when dad sat down, Maggie would curl up right next to him. I am sure that DH and I are both healthier people because of the love we share with our fantastic four-footed babies!

I'm a Gemini but on the cusp of Cancer. Thanks a lot Carlene! :faint:

I watched her TV show too and I could see the pain through her laughter. So many things were said about her (and to her face) that had to be very painful to endure. She enjoyed the lime light and had to take all of the bad stuff that came with it. She's another struggling woman with some pretty lousy men in her life. Some people are saying that she OD'd, some are saying that she committed suicide because of her son's death. Some are even saying that her husband's family killed both of them. She may have simply died from a broken heart.

L8BloomR: Yes, it is always shocking to learn than a woman has taken a beating at the hands of some rat of a man. But when you stop and think about how reliant many women are on men, it makes some sense. When you think about how some organized religions have worked so hard to keep women "in their place" it isn't surprising that we have such an uphill battle. It shocks me even more when another woman buys into it to such an extent that they agree that women should take a back seat to men. I can't tell you how many times I've heard women say that they are supportive of women, but when given a choice for President or forman of a jury or captain of a bowling team, they will choose a man over a woman every time.

Karen: Of course you are right about there being sensitive and respectful and thoughtful religious men in this world. I wasn't suggesting that all men who are religious are like my ex! I can tell you though, that the Church where he grew up and that I later joined, did produce an innordinate number of young men with the same feelings of entitlement from women and the same feelings of superiority over women. It was often addressed from the pulpit and it was preached to us as a congregation what the Southern Baptist interpretation of the Bible says about women's and men's roles in marriage. In fact, according to their interpretation of the Bible, they believe that my ex and I are still married. We spent time counseling with the pastor, who said that I should cleave to my husband and that if he hurt me in any way physically or mentally, I was to forgive him and quietly support my husband in every way that the Bible tells a woman to help her husband. So his religion did play a very important role in our marriage and in his treatment of me. (By sharing this, some of you may understand why I reacted so poorly to a certain religious discussion on another LB thread recently.) I have also known men who aren't religious who treat women as objects. As for those men who are egotistical and insensitive and who may suffer from low self-esteem, they can probably use some help sorting out the reasons for their lack of respect for women. It is interesting to note that in some ways, society approves of their chauvanistic behavior.

wHEETSIN: Amen, darlin'! They make for the most interesting and educational threads!! (I just re-read my post from earlier about pre-marital sex and saw a really glaring error. My Bad. That's what I get for posting in a hurry.) :omg:

Sometimes I wonder if you all think I try to come off as knowing it all about everything. I sure don't know it all. I've just lived a long time and I have lots of experiences. I also have lots of opinions and love to share them. LOL My mother and sister both died from breast cancer. I have been through a lot of research including speaking with quite a number of doctors and medical personnel. I volunteered for a study in Canada that involved the question of using a certain drug to keep from getting breast cancer. After going through all the background studies, I wound up opting out, which I was later glad of because the people doing the studies in Canada skewed the stats a little. Anyway women who wait until their mid-30s or in their 40s to start a family have a higher incidence of breast cancer. Women who have never had children are more prone to breast cancer than those women who have had children. Women who have children are less prone to get cancer if they breastfeed than those who do not breastfeed their babies. But I wouldn't get too excited about those studies one way or the other. There are 5 different kinds of breast cancer. Some are influenced by female hormones, some not so much. Some genetic predisposition to breast cancer may make you more apt to get breast cancer, but it is not a large percentage (2%, last I heard) of increased risk. Getting a double mastectomy, if you are genetically predisposed to getting breast cancer, will not guarantee that you won't get it (you still will have some suseptible tissue). The best way to live with this ever constant threat of breast cancer is to do breast self-exams on a regular basis. You do need to learn how to detect cancer with a self-exam. There are doctors who can teach you and who can provide an artificial breast with the 5 kinds of cancer lumps present for you to feel. You would be surprised how difficult it is to find each of them even when you know they are there. It takes about a million cells present for an x-ray to reveal cancer. It only takes one cell for it to have metastisized. You have to take responsibility for your own health. If you ever find a lump, do not wait. Get it analyzed immediately. If you have any doubts or do not feel comfortable with the results, consult an oncologist! Find out all of your options. Early detection gives you the best chance for survival. But being informed and making your own decisions based on the help from doctors who specialize in breast cancer diagnosis and treatment, is imperative. The chances that a woman will get breast cancer are about 1 woman in 9. They used to say one woman in 10. Some argue that the number is 1 in 8 now. I believe that you can't live in fear (like I used to) of getting breast cancer. You just need to be careful, take good care of yourself, don't stay stressed for long periods of time, be happy and laugh a lot, spend some time helping others. That's the BJean guide for healthy, happy boobies. Oh yeah, when you are no longer using them to feed your babies, it's helpful to use them for entertainment for your significant other. Your body will thank you because your breasts will love the attention. Bet I just lost some of the guys who were having fun reading this thread.

Just want to jump in for a second. The comment about rape being not about sex, but solely about domination or brutality, was a very popular position that psychologists and other professionals took for a while. They are finally beginning to come around to admitting that rape IS about sex, as well as dominance and brutality. And it seems to me that on both sides of the sex before marriage question, many are speaking to extremes one way or the other. I believe that most of us are somewhere in the middle of the road on this. Most of us are not either extremely promiscuous (whenever, wherever or whoever) or believe that abstinence only (nobody ever) is the definintive and correct answer to the question. Much of what has been discussed has to do with respect, which goes to the core of all of this. If a young lady or young man is considering whether they should have sex before marriage, we have hopefully instilled in them a proper respect for themself as well as their potential sexual partner. Indiscriminate sex and sex with no respect for one's partner is where societal problems arise and what results in one partner being taken advantage of and being used in a harmful way. That can never be a good thing. When both partners care about each other and respect each other, sex before marriage can be great and wonderful. If one's religious beliefs prohibit premarital sex, then that person should seek out like-minded individuals to date. But in any case (in this long second of mine) we should make absolutely certain that our children have an education that includes anatomical lessons as well as philosophical ones or if they don't they could wind up like me, a virgin, married at 19 to a very religious virgin guy, both with no sensible sexual education. Our education was simply a religious one - ABSTAIN BEFORE MARRIGE. The result of that union, on my wedding night, was an extremely painful, unromantic, awkward and unsatisfying experience which left me practically unable to walk the next day. The marriage should have ended the day after the wedding, but instead, I felt so compelled by my church to make my marriage work that I stayed with the idiot, supported him while he worked on his degree in architecture, got drafted and before leaving for Viet Nam made sure I was pregnant, and upon his return 13 months later, was still the pompous, religious, I'm the man and I am perfect and you are my subserviant wife. Fortunately I divorced his butt after 4 years and it was the best decision I ever made in my life. You better believe that before I married any other man, I would know what the heck I was getting into. I am now married to a wonderful man who repsects everything about me (as I do him). He doesn't go about professing his high moral values and his Christianity or his religious beliefs. However he is has the highest moral values and ethical standards of anyone I have ever known. *Lesson learned*

I didn't watch the show either. Did any of you? Did you think it was helpful for the family? Did Phil come up with anything helpful?

Mariah: I agree! laurend: I said almost the same thing you did about teaching requirements. It's been quite a while since I was in college, but there were the same standards back then for teachers as what you've mentioned here. Years and years ago it was pretty accepted that most of the teachers were mothers and teaching was a thing women could do that allowed them to be home when their children were. It was usually a supplemental income and so, lower pay and having school hours were completely acceptable factors for most women going into teaching. Nowadays, teachers are expected to do so much more than just nurture our children and teach them the 3 Rs. But unfortunately some of the educational requirements have not prepared them as well as they need to. Another factor in the lower than business pay scale is that public school jobs are paid with public funds. Publically funded jobs are generally lower scale than business-funded ones, both in and out of the teaching profession. We embrace capitalism in this country, remember? Only when we taxpayers agree that we need to raise the teaching requirements and subsequently pay our teachers better, will we have better teachers and better educations for our children. That is a different argument from the one about all taxpayers paying their fair share for our public schools though, regardless of whether they have a child who attends public school or not.

lisah: I love that you are adopted and are so tuned into the sisters and mother in your family. It doesn't have to be about genetics. You can even have a good friend with whom you share that kind of closeness and communication.

lisah: I agree. That is my point. Either Americans want to ensure that all children have a good education in this country, or not. If we do want to have good public schools, we must devote the money and energy to it. When people opt out, and send their children to private schools, it should not cause them to opt out from doing their part for the greater good and making sure that all American children get an education. We are a greedy, selfish bunch sometimes.

Ron: After all that has been said here, I appreciate your statement about Christian faith.

lisah: I didn't want to talk about it too much and make you all think I was exaggerating, but my mother shared in our communication, sight and sound unseen. It was really fun at the time. But it makes me miss them so much more than if we hadn't been so tuned into each other.

Wheetsin: Why would I take umbrage to anything you said about Dr. Phil? I agree wholeheartedly.

gadgetlady: You never did answer my question: what has Rush Limbaugh done to achieve or preserve peace in the world? We all know what Al Gore has done in an effort to improve the world. And we also know that he hasn't sat on his throne and spewed hate.

lisah: very good point. Old people in Florida (many of them) believe that since they have no children in school, they shouldn't have to pay taxes for schools. Do we want to ensure an education for the children of this country or not? If we do, don't we want to make sure that the schools are presenting the best possible education? How is that going to happen if only the people with children attending school are the only ones who pay into the program? What's your feeling about school vouchers? As a country don't we all have a vested interested in how our chidren are educated? Or are the Republicans trying to ensure that their children are superior when they become adults by keeping the poor down? Isn't that "The rich keep getting richer..." scenario, to a tee?

darrell: who are you talking about that you think makes Hillary look like Rush? Inquiring minds want to know.