BJean

BTW, it is within our rights as members of LBT to state our opinions here without citing "expert" testimony and without posting statistics to back up our opinions. To me the important part of RnR is hearing people's diverse (usually) opinions. If I want to find some "statistical" data to support my opinions, I can go online and probably find some. We all know that people will report and state just about anything and pass it off as fact on the 'net. That is not to say that I don't enjoy checking out some of the referenced sites and testimony of political movers and shakers that are provided by my fellow RnR posters. But I am a living, breathing, thinking, educated human being. My opinions are my own - I do not have to rationalize them or provide statistical data to support them. By the same token, you are not required to read my posts or give them any weight at all with regard to your own belief system. But to denigrate my comments because I don't provide a bunch of websites for you to read is unfair and kinda snobbish, really.

Communication by the way of written word is sometimes very difficult. I believe you all are sort of arguing semantics. Just as gadgetlady is arguing about who's a Christian. We all know that some fundamentalist Christians are very exclusionary. Even to the point that they believe they are the only ones going to heaven. So to argue the point with them is well, pointless. Their beliefs are not "beliefs" to them. Their beliefs are the extension of God's word. They believe that they're not playing God by wanting to outlaw abortion, they believe that they are doing God's work. They are even more terrifying to me than Muslim terrorists. The possibility of my ever being affected by a Muslim terrorist is very slim. The possibility of fundamentalist Christians making decisions for me is not only a possibility, but it is happening throughout this country as we speak. The fact that they were able to impeach President Clinton for indescretions in the oval office, and yet fully support our aggression in Iraq (even with the knowledge of how incredibly wrong it was for us to bomb Bagdad that night so long ago and even in spite of the beautiful lives that have been taken away by this administration's actions), should strike fear in all of us. Abortion rights are just one more step on their political "Christian" agenda. We are fools if we do not speak out. We will be as foolish as the Germans were before WWII who allowed Hitler and his political empire rule Germany and declare war on their neighbors. How did this happen, they asked themselves when the storm troopers marched through their towns. Well it happened one lost freedom and one day at a time.

Gonnabe: That's great! Be thankful for your one pound loss. I'm still the same this week but I need a fill, I'm sure. If your band is causing you to be disinterested in food, thank your lucky stars. I am experiencing the same hunger and cravings that I did before the band. I'm not able to eat as much though and that is sure helpful. Keep up the good work! Weight for the week: same.

Carlene: Other than my DH, you're the only person I've known who has read "Alas Babylon." That was very entertaining. I am also a Heinlein lover. We used to read his short stories aloud to each other while riding in the car on long road trips. Nowadays it's books on tape or CDs. We read tons of spy and detective books and anything with some mystery. The reason I say we is because that's what he buys and once he's finished them, if he liked it, I read it. (I'm a little cheap too.) Political biographies sometimes join the "books on the nightstand" club at our house. He always has several books going at once, but if I think a book is good I just can't put it down until I'm finished. That makes for all-night reading sometimes. Bad habit!

Jenn- How tragic for your friend's family and friends (like you.) I know how you feel both about the loss you've suffered and about the way you've turned to food for comfort. That's always been my M.O. But it doesn't have to be. I like what edie (I think) said about your friend not wanting to be the cause of you sabbotaging your band. I'm sure that is true. My MIL had a stroke right before Christmas. She was doing very well going through rehab for the loss of the use of her left arm and leg. We all were thankful because we knew it could have been worse. Her thought processes were hardly affected, her sight, and her speech only a little. She was regaining strength and her attitude was great. Then she had a second stroke about 5 weeks later. She bounced back again from only a very small setback from the second stroke. She actually did so well in rehab, about a month ago she was able to go home. After 4 weeks at home with some home health care, she was alone one morning and fell and broke her pelvis. Her spirits are crushed. She doesn't want to be bothered with rehab or even people visiting. Everyone is so sad and we really don't know how to help her. Of course she's in a nursing home now and it is a very depressing environment. I am not telling you all of this to make you feel bad. I am telling you this because I want you to know that things could have been much, much worse. You said it yourself, that she's in a better place. You wouldn't have wanted her to suffer in some vegetative state if she hadn't passed. I hope that in a few months you'll be able to start remembering all the good times you had and what a good experience it was having her for a friend and be thankful for that. Her experience should encourage you to get as healthy as possible. Walking a little on your own (if you have a really safe place) is sometimes very cathartic and gives you time to sort a lot of things out. You may already have a walking program, but if not, you might give it a try. Not so much to divert your attention from food, but more for the endorphins you'll benefit from and the time you'll have to think and become determined to be where you really want to be in your life. Someone said on another thread, the greatest cause of failure and unhappiness is trading what we want MOST for what we want at the moment. I'm guilty, but I'm working on it. I've posted that quote on my wall above my computer. I hope you start feeling better soon.:myscared:

Very well said, Green.

You know Carlene, I left the computer feeling bad about my last post. It was terribly sarcastic and not representative of the real me. I hope. Sometimes I try to be funny, but I wasn't trying to be funny. I was just being snotty and scarastic. You are so right that to debate this issue, here or probably almost anywhere, is fruitless. Most people have pretty firm opinions on the topic. The reason I continued to argue is because there are people like my kids and some of the ones who post here who believe that abortion will always be legal and therefore if they are faced with such a decision, they'll make it at the time. So they really don't have to worry about it and in fact, aren't really sure why all the fuss. I do not believe it will always be legal if the current administration has its' way. I do not believe that either of the past two presidential elections were without seriously screwed up procedures that caused the outcome, to not necessarily be the true will of the people. I distrust the party in power because of so many dishonest and underhanded things they've done during this administration and the ones previously. They were seriously stung by what happened to Nixon and it made them stronger and united and with the determination to be in power - no matter what they have to do. I believe that this abortion issue is somewhat at the heart of it. Not the full reason they wish to be in power, of course, but an important part of it. I do not want my children and their children to live in a land where politicians control their medical care and personal, intimate decisions. They have no idea what that is like. I do. That's why I feel so strongly about it. That's why I let scarcasm slide onto my screen. I apologize for the tone of my post. This is an important issue that will not be solved here and certainly not solved by hatefulness or scarcasm. I've been repeatedly disgusted by that aspect of the opposition's approach so much that I'm embarrassed that I stooped to that level. Anyone lurking out there, just know that women's rights over their bodies and their lives is at stake - and I am certainly not being melodramatic. If you ever had a friend or member of the family who was faced with a horrible, life-altering, unwanted pregnancy, you'd understand why allowing the government to control that aspect of their lives is completely and totally unacceptable.

That must have been not only one clinic that he presided over, but a chain of abortion clinics. Sorry, I had no idea that he was a converted Catholic. That makes it extremely understandable that he's being very vocal about his change of heart now. :paranoid Whatever you say, Carlene and gadgetlady. I am sure he's a wonderful man with a heart of pure gold and plenty of statistics to back it up. I am so very over this worn out topic. You haven't convinced me of anything, but I give up on this particular line of discussion. You win, he's a dreamboat of a human being - a veritable saint. Somebody that we should all listen to and follow to his dying day. Hopefully he'll be cannonized in not too many hundreds of years after he dies.

Carlene, you go girl. That porkchop almost had me convinced at first that he/she/it was seriously concerned about bigotry and discrimination. Then I read the rest of his/her/its post. HA. Glad you set him/her/it straight!

Mark, thanks for that. I wasn't willing to spell it out for those who bought it, I figured it would be good for them to figure it out for themselves. I'm a little disappointed that the person who posted such a figure didn't bother to do the math, but such a sensational figure linked to the guy proved to many of us, that he's a windbag with a right wing agenda. Yawn.

Yes Green, I am sure that indeed it would. But even if we had a group consisting of extremely knowledable people to examine the issue, the current administration would not listen to their recommendations. At least that's their track record on many issues to date.

I still can't get over that number you keep quoting. 75,000 abortions. Right. I can't imagine her wanting to witness any abortion for any reason, but that's sure a nice mental image you popped in here.

No I do not dispute the fact that people change their minds. Sometimes people do a complete one-eighty. Which brings up another good point that might be made in another thread... those killers who do a one-eighty and are very sorry for committing a crime. They can be productive members of society because they have seen the error of their ways and will never commit that crime again. Guess that solves the issue of capital punishment. Thank God for Betty Friedan! I met her once. She was a very courageous and sharp woman. I'm not so sure about the company she once kept though.

Yeah, what ever happened to being responsible for your actions! Ah but wait a minute. Shouldn't that apply to society? Just because we're a large mass of people, it doesn't absolve us of the responsibility for killing another human being. It does only in some people's minds. The ones who've decided that if a person kills that we should kill them back in revenge. Makes sense. Not. It makes us killers.

Just as I thought. Years ago I knew a girl by the name of Zoe and she pronounced it with a long O. I never could get used to it.

What I want to know is do you pronounce Zoe with a long O or a long E?

gadget your last comment defies reason - as do many of your other statements. Think about it, hon. If he was doing abortions, he was perfectly well aware of what came out. Ultrasound didn't reveal anything to him that he wasn't already aware of, unless he was/is a bigger quack than I even thought. And since his numbers don't add up nor do his stories, then why would you put so much creedence in what he says? I can answer that and it is what you've accused me of - you like what he has to say since it supports your beliefs. You accused me of not wanting to read his stuff because I don't like his politics. You are perfectly, squarely wrong about that. I read opposing credible sources and listen to the arguments and beliefs of those with differing opinions all the time. But I do not waste my time on people who I know stretch the truth or make up their own truth just to get people to listen to them. There just aren't enough hours in the day to do that.

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Sorry, I'm just not interested in reading the writings of a former atheist abortionist who performed 75,000 abortions and who has found religion and so now you've decided he is brilliant and knows of what he speaks. I think he's using his history to manipulate people and numbers and that just doesn't interest me.

gadget, you're a tricky one, aren't you! I never said he had credibility - EVER - he seems like some kind of quack to me. But then I don't share his bouncy ball politics, so there you go. My point was that his abortion stats just don't hold up so none of his stuff can be trusted as fact either. You gotta watch folks on both sides of the fence. That's one reason why I don't post a bunch of science or statistics - unless I've seen the full studies. And frankly that's not why I come here. RnR is a place to post opinions, rants and raves. It sure ain't science.

nurse: Thank goodness for smiley faces, because otherwise I wouldn't know how you REALLY feel. Sarcasm can be a tricky science.:confused:

Elisabeth: Those are very touching examples of just why people should be in control of their own health care. My mother did not want to die in a cold sterile hospital. She did not want to be kept alive so that her cancer could fill her with more pain than she had already endured. Against our better (we thought) judgement, we took her home. She had a hospital bed in the living room where all the activity was. It was hard on us, but I personally felt so good about taking care of her needs instead of having a stranger do it. It gave me something to do for her. She did it her way and we will always respect her for taking charge of her life and her death. My sister, on the other hand, fought her cancer with her last dying breath. She was off and on chemotherapy and other drugs and radiation for 3 years. It was a horrible existence. She had every side effect you could imagine from the drugs - and many you couldn't imagine. But she never gave up hope and she got our respect because of her courage and her willingness to fight with all her might. Two very different ways to approach death. There are many more and I hope that when my time comes I will be able to have a say in how I go out. I don't want to be kept alive well beyond what is normal. I would be completely mortified to have that decision taken out of my hands or the hands of my family. They know how I feel about this. But you are right, if I were faced with death unexpectedly, I might beg to be put on a ventilator. edie: I appreciate your posting the day and time for Larry King's interview with Kevorkian.

Dr. Nate's credibility flies right out the window when he cites statistics about the number of llegal abortions that were performed before abortion bacame legal. That's a load of B.S. used to skew the numbers to suit his politics.

Dang Mark! Why didn't I think of that. I could solve the problems of both abortion and adoption in one fell swoop. :faint:

gadget - I'm just as uptight about the dichotomy of your stance on it being unacceptable for never taking a human life if it is a baby, versus always taking a human life if it is a convicted killer. A life is a life, as you so often put it. If you believe there is no middle ground about taking a life when there is an "innocent" human being's life at stake, then you shouldn't believe that there is no middle ground when there is a "guilty" human being's life at stake. Of course I have children. How else would I know exactly how a pregnancy affects a woman? That's not something you can read about and fully appreciate or understand. And I take the responsibiilty extremely seriously. That's why I could never, in a million years, give a child up for adoption. That is unfair to the extreme as far as I'm concerned. All you have to do is watch Oprah, Springer or a few of the other talk shows, or know someone who is adopted very intimately, to realize how much pain adoptees can experience when they learn that their mother gave them up for adoption. And can you blame them? Unlike your belief about abortion, however, I'm not saying that adoption should be illegal. But I don't think that a healthy woman should give a baby up for adoption. She's created this little human being and she should take the responsiblity for it. Same goes for the father. No matter who he is. Adoption is not always a perfect answer to an unwanted pregnancy. It is fraught with emotional as well as, in some cases physical, unhealthy implications. To pass adoption off as the perfect answer to make abortion illegal, is wrong, wrong, wrong. That is my belief. I know you think it is incorrect and you probably think it is ignorant. Perhaps that is why you are so intent on "educating" the rest of us. But it is my belief and I am probably just as educated about the matter as you, and I am definitely just as firm in my belief as you. Sandbagging women into going through with an unplanned, unwanted pregnancy is terrorism in some cases, as far as I'm concerned. Just as it would be to sandbag a woman into having an abortion if she's a poor, unmarried, irresponsible woman. It's okay for you to try to make people "think" but you don't let it go at that. You paint all women who have had or who may someday want to have an abortion with the same brush (unless her life is threatened, I suppose.) It isn't that simple no matter how much you will it to be so. Abortion is complicated decision, it is not to be entered into lightly, just as adoption is complicated and should not be entered into lightly. But sometimes abortion IS the best answer, and sometimes adoption IS the best answer. My entire argument ends with the simple premise that it is not for YOU to decide what EVERY woman should do if she is faced with either of those circumstances.