BJean

laurend, your points and babygirl's go exactly to the crux of the issue that's been debated here. But you will never get any satisfaction from trying to debate it with people who are so closed up to anything but what they believe with all their hearts and minds. That is true about rabid people on both sides of the fence, by the way. Abortion is not just a scientific question. Abortion is a religious one, a political one, a psychological and emotional one. It isn't as simple as arguing when a life begins, scientifically. If science came out and declared that life begins when the fetus is 8 weeks old, or after the baby has been born or somewhere in between, abortion would still be an option for women. It always has been and it always will be. That is the major reason why certain men and women, even though their convictions are strong enough to cause them to be outraged - absolutely certain that they are correct - should never be making decisions about it for everyone, whether those outraged men and women are for a woman's right to choose or against a woman's right to choose.

Sounded like a truly horrific experience. I couldn't believe how many others chimed in and said they'd had the same thing. I'd never heard of it. Btw, do you know what's happened to TOM?

laurend I completely agree with you. Btw, I hope you're feeling fine again.

You're just plain silly. Do you really think you're winning friends and influencing people with that drivel? Is that the best you can do lately? I know ya'll keep coming up with more outrageous claims and scenarios all the time to try to get your way, but I think you're going to have to do much better than this tripe. Websters defines tripe as anything worthless, offensive, etc., rubbish, trash. Yeah. Tripe fits.

Tami! Congratulations! Fantastic! Fabulous! Woo hoo!!! I finally got a fill today. It's been over 2 months since I saw the nutritionist and doctor. They were wonderful. Instead of giving me hard time, they bragged on me for what I have accomplished and the fact that I have definitely not given up. They have a new plan in conjunction with Larry North's Gym for 8 of their patients to participate in a once a week work out, with a personal trainer, and once a month meetings with a psychologist who they say is great. I told them I really want to be one of those 8 people. They said they will allow it if I get an okay from the exercise physiologist. I have an appt. with her on Thursday. I'm keeping my fingers crossed. I need a tangible program with a week to week specific commitment to build my body back up and eat well. I was half a pound heavier than I was January 2 according to their scales. I actually wasn't too disappointed with that.

P.S. laurend, your last question is great. I don't recall anyone for their team actually committing to a specific time, except to say that once the sperm finds a cute egg, and they dance a little, it's a life.

You know what laurend, what he did was criminal as far as I'm concerned. We seriously thought about suing. We certainly had plenty of justification to sue him. I think some of the medical staff would have loved for us to do it. But in the end, it would not have helped my dad. It would have continued to bring us unfathomable pain. And I was not prepared to spend anymore time across the table from that quack. If I thought it would save another human from the same fate, it would have been worth it, but I had very little hope that would be the case. That doctor was a very powerful man not only in that hospital, but also in the other major hospital in Orlando. My dad was 83 and had gone through many medical procedures in his last 15 years. He was in constant pain from spinal arthritis. He had no business being put through another surgery. He told my dad that he "had to have the surgery because if he didn't, he would probably drop dead one day in Winn Dixie." No, pop didn't shop at Winn Dixie, but the doctor scared dad so bad, he agreed to it. laurend, thanks for your support. I really do appreciate it. My dad was great. Wonderful sense of humor, very intelligent and all the little old ladies loved him for everything he did for them every day. I loved him because he was wonderful to me and loved me unconditionally.

Yup laurend, we've come full circle and no one who wants to make the choice for women can tell us precisely why THEIR belief of when life begins is the only true answer. gadget, you do not own another woman's unborn baby. You cannot give it life, no matter how much you want to. It cannot become a full and complete human being without a host. You (and those who share your beliefs) are not God and it is not for you to tell everyone else when life begins and that abortion is murder. It's between God and the host. Right or wrong, that's it. Because even if you succeeded in passing a law that required women to carry babies to term in all cases of pregnancy in America, there would still be abortions. To make them illegal is only going to succeed in putting it back in the hands of the desparate women who, for whatever reason, are unable to continue their unwanted pregnancies. I realize that is just exactly what you want, but the majority of Americans will not allow you to be in charge of their unborn babies, no matter when life begins.

Carlele, when my father died, he had a DNR, living will and specific instructions to his kids that we not allow him to be kept alive on machines. A highly recommended doctor did surgery on him (which I completely disagreed that he needed) and within 3 days after the surgery, dad had some kind of episode. This whiz-kid surgical doctor would not confirm a stroke. However he insisted, and the hospital followed his orders, that dad be kept alive with a ventilator, dialysis, feeding tube, and everything else he needed to keep him from being declared dead. That night after they had him all hooked up, he haunted my dreams, telling me I needed to save him and help him pass on. My sister had those same very clear dreams and directions from dad. We were completely beside ourselves seeing him being treated just the way he had designated that he never wanted to be treated. The rest of the hospital staff was also bumfuzzled. They knew he had no chance of survival. They knew he should be allowed to die on his own and in fact, had advised us to get the family together because they said he wasn't expected to live out the week. But the surgical doctor continued to insist that the hospital follow the doctor's orders to keep him alive. We cried and wrung our hands and spoke with every person on his case, and others, begging to know why this was happening to dad. We even consulted with the patient advocate in the hospital and called in other doctors to evaluate his case. All of them, except for the doctor who did the surgery agreed that his case was hopeless. The surgical doctor, however, said that my father walked into the hospital on his own and that as a doctor he was compelled to keep him alive by any means he deemed necessary. I was in a room set aside for grieving families one day and a very frank and compassionate nurse said to me, privately, that she was the one person who was not afraid of this very powerful doctor. She said that she was near retirement and he could not touch her. She said that he would not allow a patient of his to die within a certain amount of time following his surgery. It would mess with his outstandingly high numbers of successful surgical outcomes. They had to discharge my dad from the hospital after 4 days and sent him to a critical care nursing home. He was allowed to die there one month later. It was simply devastating. What we wouldn't have given for someone with a heart, like Dr. Kevorkian, to have been his doctor.

Some of you do not believe in a woman's right to an abortion. Some of us do believe that women should be the ones to make decisions about their reproductive organs. Many posts have been made back and forth. The pro-lifers (I'm always confused by the use of that term by anti-choice people because I consider pro-choice or pro-abortion people to be pro-life), are adamant and firm in their beliefs. They want abortion of any kind to be illegal. They believe that they are quite capable of making decisions for all women with regard to whether every pregnant woman should be compelled - forced, by law - to carry that potential human being to full term. (If the fertilized egg is physically capable of becoming a baby.) I would like for those people who present themelves as being the only right ones in this argument, to consider something that makes more sense to me than any African-American slavery or Hilter analogy. What if the pro-abortionists became a huge majority in numbers and they spewed hatred toward any woman who became pregnant out of wedlock because they believed it was incredibly wrong for an out-of-wedlock pregnant woman to go to term with the pregnancy and subsequently give birth. What if the vast numbers of pro-abortionists worked hard to prove that the world is over-populated and that over-population contributes to global warming and to the eventual end to civilization as we know it. What if that argument was so compelling and popular that the law was changed to reflect that belief. What if the new law required that any woman who was unmarried and became pregnant must have an abortion. How would you feel if that became the law of the land? Well, pro-choice people feel that is the same kind of power you are wanting to wield over all women in this country. The pro-choice beliefs and new law would require women to do something you totally do not believe in, to us that is no different than your efforts to require women to do something that we just as strongly do not believe in right now, today.

Although I am pretty much a straight forward liberal, I'm afraid I must pretty much agree with Podna on this one. If EHarmony accepted money from the government for anything related to their company, then I would agree with you, Sunta. But I believe that privately owned companies should be able to seek business from any segment of society that they choose. I don't believe that it is right for government to intrude into the operations and pocketbooks of privately owned businesses, except to collect taxes. We don't collect taxes from churches, yet we are pretty much hands off when it comes to how they conduct the business of the church. Why should a privately owned business be different from a church? We are trying so hard to be politically correct, sometimes we lose sight of the foundation that our country was built on. Freedom. Freedom from people forcing their beliefs upon others. I do not approve of Chick fil A's conduct with regard to politics, but they should pretty much have the right to set their own standards and follow their own beliefs as long as they pay their fair share of taxes. Any company that enjoys govenment funding of any sort is a different story. As a government by and for the people, we can't take tax money from everyone with differing beliefs and then discriminate against them by allocating that tax money to companies that discriminate against a certain segment of taxpayers. But I am sick and tired of us all trying to tell each other what to do and force each other to be good. Fairness and goodness are different for different people, based on their belief systems. If I want to have only 100% American Indian gay women as employees in my new business, I should be able to do so without interference from the government. If you believe I am being discriminatory, you should not do business with me, and you are free to point out my policy that discriminates against whites, Asian, blacks, men, and others, to everyone you know.

And one last word to Daffodil... no, I have never had an abortion. Not that it is any of your damn business. But I know your curiosity was getting the better of you. Nitety-nite, you sweet people.

gadget, are you nuts? Abortion isn't a religious issue? Egad. We're really having fun here tonight, aren't we?

Sorry Daffodil, I didn't notice if you've posted how old you are. I was just wondering if you lived during the time when abortion was illegal? Actually I'm on Central time and it's way past my bedtime. I've been anxiously awaiting my DH's return from the hospital where his mother may be dying. I have probably been way too tense to be involved in this discussion tonight. You have pulled out all the stops and called women murderers and done all you can to pour on the guilt and disgust for them that you can muster. I find that very hateful and ugly and realize that you have no compassion for women who may have made the decision to have an abortion. You only have compassion for the little life you believe that they have MURDERED. You are obviously not someone with whom I need to be sharing a dialogue. You're very impassioned about your beliefs and I am dead set against the tone of your words against some women. I find you to be cruel and unattractive in your anger. I am sure you have worked hard to get the jargon down so that you can insult and direct hate toward women who have chosen to have abortions. If you sleep well at night, you have no conscience. Don't bother posting additional insults and hate toward me tonight. I'm going to bed. I am going to have to try to not vomit after reading your words.

Once again gadget you are very wrong. I do not have an attachment to abortion. I have an attachment to religious freedom. I have an attachment to women's rights to their own bodies. I have an attachment to not having Americans telling other Americans how to live their lives. I have an attachment to Democracy. Abortion is a symbol. A very powerful symbol of things that are going terribly wrong in this country. Things that are utterly terrifiying. Things that continue to prove that our enemies might just be right about us. I want us to be a strong country and an example of religious freedom to the whole world. I want us to prove how well a democratic nation can work and to be an example for other countries to emulate. I want all the hate, bigotry, social injustice, name-calling and hatefulness to stop. I desperately want a new president and a better administration to lead this country. One that is not derisive and self-centered as this one has proven itself to be. I want Americans to stop telling Americans that they are bad people because they do not share the same beliefs. I want many things for this country. Making abortion illegal is not one of the things I want for us. I have lived through the age when abortion was illegal. It did not work. It was horrible. Making abortion illegal is not the answer to any problem. If you work your heart out, as you've said you do, to counsel women, assist them in their decision making and helping them arrange adoptions, if absolutely necessary, then you are contributing to the greater good. Voting to make abortion illegal is contributing to what is wrong in America.

We undoubtedly will be looking back on 2007 in horror, over all the human beings sacrificed by this administration.

The Court did decide this once and for all. You just won't accept it.

Seen the movie, read the book. It's a guppy.

Well that's easy. An embryo is not a living breathing human being. It is a parasite, requiring a host for survival and growth. It can't commit murder. It can't participate in porn. It can't drive or take drugs without its' host providing it. It can't make decisions between right and wrong. It isn't a person. It is a fertilized egg, developing into an embryo, developing into a prenatal person, eventually becoming a living, breathing human being. You will never, ever convince the majority of people that women who must choose to have an abortion are murderers. Say it anyway you like. Get as graphic as you wish. We just don't BELIEVE the way you do. That's because you are wrong. You may believe that your beliefs about this make you a better person, but you are wrong about that too. Screaming from the rooftops won't make you more believable. Neither will insults and rabid analogies. You have your beliefs, other Americans have different beliefs. This is America. It isn't Iran. We don't all have to listen and do what you say when it comes to our bodies and our medical care. God Bless America!

Oh gross, you believe in pornography and killing 35 year old men? You're too much!!! I'm waiting for you to mention the words blood, killing, murder a few more times. It'll make it so much more true. Bring on the bloody videos, get as graphic as you wish. Death, destruction, murdered babies lying in the streets. Whores killing babies. Whores using abortion for birth control. Death, destruction, blood, murder. Wow. Deep thoughts....

Daffodil: To force a woman to give birth to a child because of someone else's belief system is very much like slavery. Nice of you to point this out. But I am not sure why you're so quick to condemn a woman to slavery and to do your bidding, with no consideration for her beliefs or her life in this country that we call the home of the free. I think that slavery in any form should be against the law. I hope that the Supreme Court keeps this in mind when considering outlawing abortions.

Wait a minute Mark. Maybe I'm not understanding your post. But if it is determined that Science tells us when a fertilized egg becomes a living, breathing human being with all the rights of every other human being, how can you ask someone who gets to decide which of the women in that hypothetical situation above, is right? Hasn't science already made that decision for them? Or maybe the decision shouldn't be based on science at all. Btw, some people might see certain images of an early fertilized egg's progression as looking like a fish. But no one suggests that it is proof that a human fertilized embryo is definitely a fish (or a maybe a frog when full term.) So all this discussion of clumps of cells and what they look like in early stages isn't a convincing argument that proves exactly when a human being is a life that is due all the consideration and rights that every human being is entitled to have. For many women facing the decision of abortion, the decision hinges not on whether the fertilized egg is a POTENTIAL life or a COMPLETE life at that point. A child is much too important to produce just because it is a fertilized egg. A child means everything to most women. It is a living, breathing, thinking, learning, caring human being. A child should not be brought into the world just because someone believes that a woman should be forced to give birth to a it anymore than a woman should be forced to abort a child because of overpopulation (or for any other reason.)

It's late. I meant to say that I didn't just pluck this concept out of THIN AIR.

Aw com'on. It's been said over and over that no one can be sure that a baby who is in utero and deemed to be badly deformed, will not be able to live a worthwhile and productive life, and therefore late term abortions should never be legal. In that vein, how can you be absolutely certain that a woman's life will end if she continues with a life threatening pregnancy? There are no guarantees in medicine, only diagnoses. Very few diagnoses in medicine are 100% accurate, 100% of the time. Therefore there will be arguments about whether a woman is truly going to lose her life if she continues a life-threatening pregnancy. There will need to be some definition and the rules will always be challenged with regard to that definition. I can't see it happening any other way given all of the arguments on the table right now. Besides, when abortion was illegal except in extreme cases of a woman's life being at stake, there actually were some public debates about certain cases where women's lives were deemed to be threatened and outsiders (not the family or doctor) tried to intervene. I didn't just pluck this concept out of mid-air. By the way, I do not mind you calling me pro-abortion. I certainly am that. I'm also pro-choice. I don't deny they go hand in hand. Anti-abortionists don't like to be called anti-abortionists, or anti-choice. They like to be known as pro-life. Is that not true?

For anti-choice people (who call themselves "pro-life") who have stated that they believe that abortion should be legal if it is to preserve the life of the mother, I ask you who is going to make the determination that the mother's life is in enough danger for her to obtain an abortion? We can't agree on whether an embryo during the first stages of fertilization is a full-fledged human being with its' own rights, so how in the world are we going to agree on which women are seriously in life-threatening situations during their pregnancy? Anti-choice people don't want a woman and her doctor in control of the choice of whether she should have an abortion now and they would not want to allow the "life threatening" determination to be made by the woman and her doctor either. To say that you are pro-abortion when the life of the mother is threatened, is a cop out unless you can tell me exactly which cases are to be accepted as truly life-threatening. Because I assure you, if the law made abortion illegal again with that exception, the fundamentalist Christians who have fought so hard to take a woman's choice away, will also fight just as hard to control what they decide constitutes a "threat" to a pregnant woman's life.