BJean

ghetto & late: If I understand you correctly then, you're both saying that spanking is not the only effective means to disipline children. Good, I'm glad we agree at least on that. After reading your earlier posts and the Bible quote, it made me think that you believe that spanking is the best way to disicpline a child and that God approves of hitting your child by virtue of that certain passage in the Bible. Btw, ghetto, late's the one who quoted the passage from Proverbs 13:24 "He who spares the rod hates his son, but he who loves him is careful to discipline him." I was only going by what late says is proof that hitting equates to love and sparing the rod equates to hate.

Who said that "crack" babies should be aborted? What are you thinking, and why would you assume that pro-choice people are desirous of aborting "crack" babies? The fact is, pro-choice people are not suggesting that anyone get an abortion.

There you go, posting ridiculous stats again. There is no possible way to calculate that there are 1500% more abortions now than when abortions were illegal. You came up with that figure how? There is no possible way to know how many illegal abortions have been performed. At best, that's a guestimate. Ok if you post it and state that it is a guess or an estimate, but to post it as if it were fact is incorrect. late: If your comment wasn't made to be nasty, that's nice, but the fact is that it was nasty. Why don't you worry about how you're going to answer for your sins and not cast judgment on others? That's not your job. And I guess your last sentence tells us that you are not a Southern Baptist Born Again Christian because they believe that the only people getting into heaven, even if someone asks for forgivness with a repentant heart, are Southern Baptist Born Again Christians.

Spare the rod and spoil the child, huh? Sparing the rod is the equivalent of hating your child? Jesus would spank (hit) his child? Sorry, in spite of your Biblical quotation, I do not believe it is so. Besides, just because you spank your child, there is no guarantee that you won't have a child who continues to act out. You speak as if some insurance policy comes with each spanking that says you will have a perfect child as a result. It's interesting to read that some of you have decided that spanking is the proper way to disipline a child and for some reason you've concluded that it is the ONLY way to raise a child who is respectful and well behaved. That is nonsense. Spanking is a much quicker solution to a child misbehaving than for a parent to take the time to understand the behavior and examine the most effective way to correct the child for that particular behavior. Sure, spanking gets the attention of a child who is out of control. It definitely gives you the upper hand. But it not the best way to raise a child and it is definitely not the only effective means to correct misbehavior. Those of you who hit your children, whether you tell yourselves it is out of love or whatever, you are hitting your children - spanking is by definition "striking with the open hand." And just because someone is smart enough to be able to lovingly discipline their child without striking them doesn't mean that they're "trying to be friends with them." It may only mean that they have the patience not to resort to striking their child. There are wild little misbehaved children everywhere you look. Blaming it on the fact that the parents may not spank their children because they want to be "friends" with them, is a total cop out. Physically active and out of control children are as likely to be children of parents who spank as they are to be children of those who choose not to spank. At least we can be sure that those parents who spank can never be accused of wanting to be friends with their children. And that's a good thing because? I am my never-spanked grown daughter's best friend and she is mine. I wouldn't trade that relationship for anything in the world and I could never hit her and then declare that it is proof that I don't hate her.

I've been on Wellbutrin XL for several years. At first it made me not sleep well and I still don't sleep more than 7 hours straight, but the positive effects are worth it. I do not eat as much. My knees do not hurt as much so I move more. I am way more interested in sex. And when I have sex it is much more fun. I am not depressed and a couch potato anymore. It's great for me. I never had any itching or welts. Frankly if I had, I would ask my doc for a different drug. There are so many out now. When I took Lexapro it made me very lethargic. That was only supposed to last a couple of weeks. I took it for about 6 months and the longer I took it the harder it was for me to stay awake. I slept 8 or 9 hours a night and then napped off and on all day. It actually did give me a feeling of well being with no depression, but the lethargy wasn't worth it!

late: That's just it, spankings are not what it takes to mold any children to be moral, respectful and responsible adults. It is just the only way you know how to deal with your child. Think about this, if Jesus had a child, do you think he would ever have hit him? If you say yes, you're dreaming. If Jesus had the patience and love and kindness not to hit anyone, why can't we see it that way?

late, that's a nasty little comment you made to IndioGirl... although it is so in character for someone who believes she is the person who can make reproductive decisions for all of the other women on this earth. Well you can't. And no ugly thing you can come up with will change that. It will only go to prove how unkind you are. Seems to me that you may have some hard questions to answer one day.

You know what gadget, the whole reason I bothered to post anything at all after you posted your link to that article was because I thought you were following the lead of whoever wrote the article by giving the impression that there was shocking news that there are credible studies that prove that capital punishment is a deterrent to crime. I thought the article was clearly just a sensational one to get people stirred up and not because it really presented a definite finding from a credible study. The news was not as sensational as the headline and a few paragraphs would lead one to believe. However if one pulls just those sensational paragraphs and omits the qualifiers, it surely does seem sensational. That's what I had a problem with and I thought I went pretty far in explaining it. You are the one who started the whole personal affront about what I posted. And if you can't understand why I posted what I did, I certainly can't understand why you reacted the way you did. The bottom line on this whole silly bit is that our feelings from other threads where we disagreed have undoubtedly colored our posts on this issue. That's pretty understandable really, since we are generally so diametrically opposed in every other arena. I believe I'm ready for some nicely warmed Brie, preferably with simple little Water crackers.

No, once again you're wrong. Perhaps you're reading through my ultra long posts too quickly. I can't blame you for that! I never said you were against capital punishment, because it is or is not a deterrent. Your posts gave the impression you are FOR capital punishment and that you think that it is a deterrent. If that is not what you believe or want us to believe (which I think is sometimes the case) then it is great that you straighten us out by posting exactly what you want us to think you believe.

Butch I think you are a very bright guy. I agree with a whole lot of what you had to say. The reason I agree with you is because I have been witness to it, practically all of my life. I don't think that we will ever reach Nirvana though, as much as we would like to think we could. But I feel a lot of the time as if we are just fighting among ourselves, and the administration is loving every minute of it. It's a great diversion from the fact that they are not working to solve any of the majority of our country's problems. They're too busy making bucket loads of money before they leave office. Tommy of course we are all individuals and we all have different qualities as well as different problems. We are as different as our fingerprints and DNA indicate. No two of us are alike. Identical twins are even different in certain ways. So no one particular panacea will work to solve all the personal problems that we have in our lives. But let's face it, we can do much better! Green I do admire much about my Canadian cousins and their beautiful country. But I have to tell you, sometimes I wonder if your pride in your country isn't keeping you fitted with rose colored glasses. When we moved to Montreal, we were told that there were no "street people" and no beggars and practically no crime. That wasn't true. There were lots of street people there. One guy who was begging on the street one day actually landed a punch in my DH's face. We witnessed men urinating on the streets quite often. There was always a puddle of pee in many of the downtown Metro stops. There was a murder just around the corner from us in a jewelry store during a robbery. Did I read about it in any of the newspapers or see it on the news? Not very often. The newscasters did not stupidly sensationalize shocking stories like they do in the states, and I do not doubt that more crazy things go on down here than in your parts, but your country isn't Nirvana either. (Although I do admit that it's closer to it than the U.S.A.) For all the negative stuff you hear about what's happening down here, just please remember that we have a crazy media that loves to exaggerate for effect. Most of our neighborhoods are quite safe and beautiful places to live. We do spend a lot of time debating and criticizing our own, that's one of the really neat things about us. But it also wreaks havoc on our self-esteem, both as a country and as individuals.

Nope. You're wrong. You said early on that you weren't for capital punishment because it was a deterrent, and I accepted that as the gospel according to gadget. But I thought it was relevant that you only posted the part of the article that was trying to make people think that there is some new wowie-kazowie study or studies that prove that capital punishment deters crime. The article was filled with information that showed that it was not an accepted study at this point, by many learned people. Consequently I didn't make you out to have an agenda at that point, your behavior did. You can turn things around any way you like, but if anyone is reading this (which I doubt) they can see for themselves how things unfolded here. It isn't fair for you to blame me for something I haven't said or done, nor is it fair for you to say that I said something or other that I did not say. Come on, play fair.

If you say so, gadget. I don't follow your logic, but I'm sure you must know what you're talking about.

P.S.S. I too find it completely repulsive that on the one hand people say they don't believe in harming an unborn baby, but on the other hand when they're born, it's okay to hit the little people. What tha? I should post photos of abused children here, or a link to graphic violence against children with photos of their little bruised bodies, burned arms and legs, or dead limp bodies from their mother's drowning them in a bath tub. That would be as relevant as posting a graphic link showing some kind of brutal late term abortion here. Good grief.

I've avoided this thread because I figured it would upset me. Sure enough, I had time tonight to read the posts and I am extremely upset. My parents used to spank my siblings and I. My Dad especially, thought it was right and good to hug and kiss us after he spanked us and explain why he "had" to spank us so that we would understand right from wrong. My sister and I always said to each other afterwards, that here comes the "buttering up" part. We knew that he felt guilty for hitting us, and we were very young when we knew it. He used to take us, one by one, into another room and "spank" us with his belt. He didn't leave marks. We had to wait through dinner until it was time for us to get our spanking for whatever it was that we did or didn't do that day. Then afterwards we were told how much we were loved and how he didn't want to spank us but that we were bad and we knew we had it coming. This didn't happen often at all, but you can be sure that I remember each and every time that it happened. It was abusive, it was ugly, and it was totally unnecessary. I did not love and feel any respect my father until he was was older and I was no longer afraid of him. We grew to be very close when I was an adult. My mom died and he really needed me and my love. So I certainly gave it to him. My siblings were unable feel respect toward him for most of their adult lives. Oh sure, they could say they loved him, but they didn't respect the way he raised us - with fear. Laurend has posted one of the most intelligent and sanest things that I read here. She said that consistency is the answer to raising your children. She's completely right. Today we are all so busy making a living, attending all the kids' functions, and cramming everything into every day that we think we should, that we are all strung out much of the time. I believe that is why we see so many unruly children. They are begging for our attention. They crave consistency and love and caring and too many times we put them last after all the other chores and activities we feel we must get done. I never, not once, spanked my daughter or son. I thought I wanted to a time or two, but I was able to get a grip and realize that they were begging for me to listen to them. They seldom misbehaved - only when they were very tired or sick or feeling like we were ignoring them. They did very well in school, they were popular with other children and their teachers loved them. They have become awesome adults. They now have children and they do not spank their own children. I am very proud of how our 3 - four year olds stand out in a crowd of other 4 year olds. They are well-behaved, polite and have lots of sweetness and love in their hearts. Corporal punishment is not the answer. Children may grow up to be good people in spite of corporal punishment, but I do not believe that children grow up to be well adjusted, happy people because they were punished by spanking when they were growing up. The answer is consistency and listening to them. When children act out, it is for a reason. If you are a loving, caring parent you will investigate what caused the behavior and then you can address the behavior and correct the problem. You really have to love your children unconditionally and you have to be willing to give up some of yourself and your time to parent them 24/7. I am shocked that anyone would use an implement to whip their child in this day and age, after all that we know about how negative corporal punishment is for children. The fact that a child will look at you and say that they love you and understand why you had to whip them only tells us that they are scared of you. It doesn't necessarily mean that they respect you or honestly understand why you want to hit them. They know, deep inside, that it doesn't make any sense for someone to be able to hit them. P.S. To say that someone has to be a parent in order to say how children should be punished is completely ignorant. If you think a non-parent can't understand the proper way to parent, that's telling me that you lose it with your children from time to time, otherwise what's the big mystery?

The first Sandra Brown book I read was, "Lucky." It was one of a trilogy. Really entertaining. Then I read another one but can't remember the name. The heroine woke up in the hospital, all bandaged from head to toe, unable to talk, and learned that everyone thought she was killed in the airplane crash, and that they think she is someone else. Remember that one? After that, I was hooked big time for a while. That was probably 10 years ago and I haven't read one of her books since then. Do you have any recent ones to recommend? I'd guess that they're still a quick read and lots of fun since she always throws in a little spice and intrigue.

If we can't rely on the findings from studies that are conducted, then why post the link and why bother reading them? The fact is that if we are thorough in our research and if the studies are unbiased and properly constructed, we can trust that they will reveal accurate findings. When a study is done that provides very different results from all of the previous studies, we look to honest researchers to analyze it and publish a thorough accounting of why the findings are so out of the mainstream. Poorly constructed and biased studies are usually only given credibility and deemed reliable by those who WISH they were true, even though they make shocking headlines.

It will be interesting to see what conventional wisdom shows after all of the recent studies are analyzed. As you know, there are studies and then there are studies. They're all over the map with respect to almost any topic you can think of. Whether they are credible and accurate is what makes them worthwhile. Not just because we agree with one side or the other, or some clever person has figured out a way to make a case that goes against what most other studies have shown. For over a hundred years, and in many countries around the world, research has shown that capital punishment is not a deterrent to crime. If the tide has changed, it will be very interesting to understand the nature of that change. Maybe when ALL of the results are in, you'll do us a favor by posting a link so we can read all about it.

rrod: how lucky you are to have so many sweet nurses to take care of you. My DH's niece had a little boy when she was 15. Just barely 15. She had a horrible home life. She and her boyfriend got married. Frankly I was relieved that she found a way to move out of that house! They are still together, and just had a baby girl. They have been married 7 years. Their daughter is 4 months old and she just found out that she is pregnant again. She is thrilled. The family isn't, but none of them have done much to help her. She finished high school, against all odds, worked in a retirement home and put herself through nursing school. Her husband has a habit of getting tired of any good job that he's ever had. And she is the stable one in their relationship. They love each other and they are crazy about their children. Sure they've had some ups and downs, but what marriage hasn't? I have the utmost respect for her and what she has accomplished in her young life. She is a great mother and by all rights, if she weren't so smart and loving, she could be an abuser like her father. As I said, I respect her very much and she deserves our respect more than any of the other kids in the family who have had everything they ever wanted and still don't have their acts together.

If that is true, why did you only post the side of the argument that gives the impression that recent studies show that the death penalty is a deterrent? You gleaned specific exerpts and said nothing about the parts of the article that disagreed that the studies proved anything. If you are completely on the fence about this issue, I'm very surprised.

rrod: I didn't think that your post was completely clear about what you did about the terrible problems your baby had before she was born. I assumed that you didn't find out about all of her medical problems until the 25th week of your pregnancy. Did you go to full term and deliver her? Although the answers aren't relevant to the question, "was I wrong?" You made the best decision you could make at the time, with all of the information and emotions and beliefs that you had at the time. Whatever you did, it is certainly not for any of us to decide whether you made the right decision. That decision was between you and your husband and your doctor. No one else has any right to tell you that what you chose to do was right or wrong. I too am very sorry for your loss. Of course you still grieve for your daughter. I will always grieve for my grandson, Jake, who was stillborn. Everytime we see a rainbow, we think that Jake is reminding us of his love. The day he died, we had the most beautiful rainbow any of us had ever seen.

You only included the statements that support your agenda. Below is more information in the article that you did not post. There were more statements to the effect that capital punishment is not a deterrent, but I won't bother to post them because we can all go there and read them if we're interested. But don't go giving the impression that it is accepted and acceptible that capital punishment is a deterrent to murder as stated by the article you posted a link to. "Ultimately, a panel was set up by the National Academy of Sciences which decided that Ehrlich’s conclusions were flawed. But the new pro-deterrent studies haven’t gotten that kind of scrutiny. At least not yet. The academic debate, and the larger national argument about the death penalty itself — with questions about racial and economic disparities in its implementation — shows no signs of fading away. "Steven Shavell, a professor of law and economics at Harvard Law School and co-editor-in-chief of the American Law and Economics Review, said in an e-mail exchange that his journal intends to publish several articles on the statistical studies on deterrence in an upcoming issue."

laurend: Sadder still is the fact that the lousy, stinking, dishonest, jerks concocted that ad and ran it and even got away with it!

Nothing in that article would lead one to believe that capital punishment is a deterrent to crime. However, at the end of the article it mentioned that a Harvard prof is planning to publish some related articles. They should be interesting to read.

I used to read all of Anne Rice's books, but eventually the movies turned me off so much I quit enjoying her books.

My intent was not to highjack the thread. But a guy I used to date told me that years ago Linda Ronstat came to the door to greet him wearing only a towel. I'd love to hear the Bob Dylan story. Anyone reading Dylan Thomas right now?