BJean

Thanks, Katt. That was very nice of you!

Katt: 35 miles north of Tulsa... isn't that where Bartlesville is? Is it a 'burb of Bartlesville? What about Pawhuska? Further west? Gosh I miss Oklahoma sometimes! Especially the people! It's great reading yours and Bitter's posts.

Denise: I only seem to be able to lose weight the first couple of weeks after a fill too. If I don't get in right away for another fill, I tend to start putting the lost lbs. back on. Very disappointing. Hopefully we will figure out the right amount to keep in there so that we aren't totally restricted when we first get the fill and so that we can go for a longer period of time before we have to get another fill. Your doctor must be as conservative as mine.

L8BloomR: Sounds like the three of us have seen a lot of changes for women along the way. It's been an interesting and inspiring ride. I am in awe of the women who stood up for all women, even when it was very unpopular and considered unattractive. And it is nice to discuss these things with a couple of very intelligent women, L8BloomR and Green! Thanks. I completely agree with you about educating women about viable options when they are faced with an unwanted pregnancy. I hope that all women this day and age have the ability to get help whatever their choices, if they need help. I am thankful for all the resources that are available today. I do not in any way condone what Sanger and others did back then which were immoral and bigoted. She was not the only one who suggested such things and certain state-run programs endorsed that particular practice of eugenics. However it doesn't negate the good that she did for all women in her work in Planned Parenthood. Over the years, lots of people have picketed Planned Parenthood because of their policies about abortion, but they were one of the first groups to openly use words like "condom" and "diaphram" and taught women how to protect themselves. There was a time when Planned Parenthood was just about the only organization that was available to reach out and help women. We talk about all the different means of birth control today and it is hard to understand or believe that a woman would allow herself to be impregnated over and over when she didn't want to be pregnant. There's hardly an excuse for that. One time, sure, but doing the same thing repeatedly tells us it is probably more complicated than even she knows. I know she's your friend, and she is very fortunate to have you. I am sure you are a very supportive friend. Years ago women didn't have all of the options they do today. And birth control wasn't talked about openly like it is today. Planned Parenthood has helped thousands of troubled women, whether or not you agree with their policies or the people who founded it. I would imagine that Sanger would be very embarrassed by her stupid remarks today. And frankly I don't see how it puts any spin at all on the abortion issue. Having said all of that, I do not think that all of this has much bearing on whether the Supreme Court and our government should be allowed to dictate decisions about women and their bodies. P.S. A fetus is most certainly a part of a woman's body until it is outside the womb. It is not a separate entity within its' mother's womb. Again, not relevant to the discussion of women's rights though.

Lisa: I haven't actually developed "stage fright" yet, but I can see that it definitely could happen! I have had several problems just like you mentioned when we were at dinner with friends. Although today it happened at noon with just my DH and me at lunch. I brought home practically my entire meal (minus 2 small bites). I was so unhappy that I went out and bought some ice cream to placate myself. How destructive is that!!! Now I know I'm going to wind up weighing more tomorrow when I get on the scales to report my loss or gain for the challenge. And I imagine there is some swelling in the area of my band because it feels sore. I have to admit that I just don't have the whole issue of being friends with my band and being happy that it's here for me. I would say that 80% of the time I use it and love it. The other 20% I'm still a bit at odds with it. But I can say this: I am 100% happy that I got it. So far, the situation isn't perfect but it is way, way better than before the band! I haven't continued to lose the way I would have liked, but I haven't gained back the weight I lost either. To those out there who are revolted by the thought that a bandster would go buy ice cream after a bad incident, I gotta tell you that a few months ago I would have been grossed out too. I know some of you have perfect records and fantastic results and I hope that it stays that way for you. But for those of us who still have struggles off and on, please show some compassion. :kiss You know we don't want to screw this up, we are fighting to make it work, but we're human and we have lots of mind hunger that we have to work on. :phanvan

lepez: I certainly understand the problem. It was nearly impossible for me to talk my DH into seeing the psychologist. To makes matters worse, her last name was, Bozo. Can you believe it?! But when I finally got him to go, and we met with her together, she did not side with me at all. She just listened to what he had to say and then what I had to say, and then gave us feedback and asked questions. A good therapist helps people see what they need to do to resolve their issues, whether it is about marriage or some other problem. It isn't their job to tell their client what they should choose to do. They certainly shouldn't say that someone should get divorced. They should just assist each person in making decisions for themselves. But lets face it, there are a lot of poor psychologists out there. Psychologists are just people, not perfect, as with any profession. I agree with gadget, sort of. I believe that most marriages can be saved if the right conditions exist. In the case where one person lies to another before they are married, about who they really are, then sometimes a divorce is the only answer. For instance, if someone is a homosexual but presents himself as a heterosexual before marriage, that is is a huge lie that has kept their spouse from knowing who they really are. One day the lie becomes too huge an obstacle for both people in the marriage to overcome, and unless both spouses give up on love and sex and intimacy, the marriage is doomed. Short of that, most marriages can be saved if both (or sometimes even just one) of the parties wants to save it. My heart goes out to you. You have some difficult decisions to make. It sounds like your husband isn't being totally fair or honest with you. If you both can communicate the truth openly, about whatever you're unhappy with and why, there is a good chance that you can work things out. I almost mentioned gadget's offer of a marriage encounter weekend before she posted it this time. It might just help to get you two communicating. Let's face it, at this point you probably want something to happen for better or worse so that you can get some relief!

Mark, once again you make my point much better, and in fewer words, than I do! Thank you. L8BloomR: I honestly had no idea that there were states where abortion was legal earlier than Roe v. Wade. I'm an Okie, what can you expect? We didn't get alcohol by the drink until, letsee...well, not all that many years ago. Oklahoma is the buckle of the Bible Belt! I generally don't have a lot of regrets. I've learned something each and every mistake along the way. But having a child that you have no possible way of taking care of is just plain stupid. I regret having been that stupid. Having children is so much more important than I understood at the time. If I had not married so young, been incredibly unhappy and in pain, had to face the Viet Nam war up close and personal, and made the decision (quite stupidly and naively) to have a child when I had no business having one (by the way, I made that decision along with my husband at the time - God didn't decide it for us), I would have been able to prevent my son from having to endure not living with his two biological parents, watching his mother barely make ends meet, struggle to grow up while under scrutiny for having a single parent when it was extremely looked down on, learning that he was adopted, struggling to understand his conflicted feelings about his fathers, and the list goes on. He is an adult now and still has some conflicted feelings about all this. If I had been a smarter girl, I could have prevented all of that (and more) for him. He deserved better, as all children do. Anyway, thanks for asking and for trying to understand someone like me. Your timing must have been at the back end of the Viet Nam war, eh? In the late 60's, abortions were still back-alley procedures where I come from. It was all very hush-hush, and usually no one but the parents (maybe) and the girl ever talked about it. For a priest not to have come completely unglued at the very mention of abortion, is unheard of where I'm from. California - a different set of rules, eh? In fact, I still remember when Ms. magazine was first published, I don't remember the date but sometime in the early or mid-1970's. It was absolutely shocking that they published a list of women who had decided to "come out" and admit that they had had an abortion. The list was amazing - so many famous and respected women were on that list. It opened a dialogue among women at the time about the pros and cons of abortions. It sure made me stop and think after meeting both women who had done it and women who had opted not to terminate an unwanted pregnancy, and I decided real quick that I should never, ever, tell another woman what she MUST do in the event of an unwanted pregnancy. That is not the kind of world I want to live in again.

lepez: I have probably been one of the, if not the, most vocal proponent of nume considering deconstructing her marriage. However her circumstances, in some ways, must be very different from yours. I don't know if I would be saying the same thing to you if I knew what you were up against. I'm not a psychologist, I'm only an older, very experienced woman who would like to keep anyone I can from making similar mistakes from the ones I made. Sharing our experiences here is very helpful and I wish it had been available when I was going through the devastating pain of feeling unloved, unappreciated and unsatisfied. I have to tell you lepez, when I had been married to my current DH for about 3 years, we had very heated arguments over the fact that he was so controlling and needing to be the man in power over his family. I sure didn't want to have a second failed marriage athough I felt as if I had no identity of my own. If I thought I needed something, other than groceries, I had to fill out a sheet of paper with the reasons why I needed it. Then he would consider allowing me to spend the $15 or $25 I was asking for. A bunch of flowers? Forget it. A scented candle? Forget it. I spoke with my Ob/Gyn and she recommended a great woman psychologist who I explained to my DH that I had to see or that I would leave him. He relented although he made fun of her and me at every opportunity. Turned out that she clearly saw my side and reinforced that he was unreasonably controlling. She saw me alone a few times and then she saw us together. She presented us with books on "Understanding the Male Myth" and others. She explained to DH that he was not sharing any intimacy with me and that I would eventually leave him if he did not give up his domineering ways and make me a more valuable partner in the marriage. My DH is a brilliant, fair, and big hearted guy and he realized that he didn't like the way we were living either. He realized that he was just functioning on "automatic" behaving as his role model father had. He changed, I changed some and now I trust him with every part of me. Our marriage became something way beyond the normal marriage. We did have 2 years of concentrated effort, but it was something that we both decided that we wanted to do and that we were worth it. From then on we have happily traveled down the same path through life together and we are each others best friend. I never dreamed that being married could be so great. Yes, we did hit some rocky slopes occasionally over the years, but we trusted each other with our feelings and we worked them out very quickly. Usually they had to do with things happening at his or my work that had us more stressed than we should have been. When you have someone on your team, all of the daily garbage that you have to deal with just doesn't seem so overwhelming. At the time I went to the psychologist, I felt just as you expressed in your post that you are feeling now. I had no hope that we could have such a good outcome. In fact I was seeing the psychologist primarily to prove to myself that I wasn't at fault for the breakdown of our relationship. In fact, I also had already consulted an attorney. So if there is any chance for you to save your marriage, by understanding exactly what is truly going on with each other, it is so worth it for your son as well as yourself. That kind of communication when you are so far apart and in pain, usually only happens when you have some kind of facilitator. (One without a vested interest in the outcome.) Please straighten me out if I'm way off base here!

Monk: You're absolutely right about things changing sometimes for the better in a marriage. If a couple can work through the rough times and figure out ways to communicate and compromise, things can become better than ever. I have a feeling that in nume's case, there is an element that she's up against that she can never expect to get better. If I am right, it will always be a wedge between them and most probably will only get worse. It would be great if I were wrong.

Green your description of young girls deciding to marry well before they are ready is absolutely SPOT ON~! I really appreciate knowing that you went through many of the same emotions and tribulations that I did. I didn't have a epiphany while lying on the floor staring at the ceiling - mine was in the shower when I found myself seriously studying my wrists with a razor blade in my hand. Thank goodness we both were smart enough to get on with our lives and learned to stop taking the blame for something we couldn't change. Right on, sister! :clap2:

Green: You've outed me. I love, love, love ice cream. It is my drug of choice. I am about ice cream, as an alcoholic is about booze. It is of course somewhat a head issue, but I believe that it is a chemical issue as well. I just feel too good inside and I get too elated (high?) when I consume ice cream. That's a tough row to hoe. But I do know that I have to get to it and git 'er done! I do not crave volumes of food and that's a good thing because I can't really eat massive quantities anyway. You'd think I'd lose weight since I am not eating quite a few of the dense calories and white foods that I ate before banding. I guess I will try again this week. My doc is very conservative with the fills. I reckon that's why I've had so many but still haven't reached nirvana yet. :cry Gosh I hope your bloodwork abnormality is nothing to worry about. It always pays to check things out though. I hope you will keep me informed because I really do care about you, grrl!

green: I get your point, but don't you think that would be a tad discriminatory?

late: What science comes up with to define the beginning of life, will never prevent a determined woman from aborting her baby.

LRBloom8: My we do have a lot in common! Except for how we conceived and the reasons we did. My DH at the time convinced me to get pregnant before he left for Viet Nam "in case he never came home and it could be his legacy." I willingly, once again, did what I thought was best for my husband and my marriage. My mother and his mother both thought it was the dumbest thing I could have done. My mom knew we had been having difficulties for some time. Looking back I realized how selfish it was of him and how wrong it was of me to get pregnant with all the problems we were facing. I wish I had not done it. I do have a beautiful, brilliant, talented son, of whom I am extremely proud, but it doesn't take away from the fact that it was a completely stupid decision. Second dumbest decision I ever made. Back then, abortion was illegal. I'm surprised that your families counseled you to abort. Were you Catholic? Or was the priest you confided in just a friend? Btw, I was 7 months pregnant when he got his first R & R and we met in Hawaii. Did you do that too?

The discussion of abortion can be about faith or science, depending upon your beliefs. Science determining when life begins is not the sole criterion for discussing abortion. There are people who choose to ignore science and there are people who depend wholly on science, but in the end, when you break it all down, it is all about your belief system.

Late: But I respectfully disagree with you about God's will never leaving it up to man to decide who should live or die. I believe there are passages in the Bible that disprove that, if you believe in the literal truth of the Bible. But those passages are open for interpretation and therein lies the problem. You believe one thing, I believe another, and millions of people have similar or extremely different beliefs from yours and mine. That is why it is not for us to make the choice for all other human beings, even if we are convinced that our beliefs are the one way, the truth and the light. We as human beings must make our own choices based on our own knowledge and beliefs. When you or anyone else steps into my private life and imposes your will on me - whether it's about abortion or whether I choose to treat a cancer I have, or which type of medical therapy I choose for my sick child - it is wrong. Those decisions are mine, not someone else's, even if they result in a possible, or certain, death.

P.S. No one has anyway of knowing for sure that God created a baby in a mother's womb to be delivered happy and healthy. Perhaps God created a baby in a miserable, troubled, raped woman's body so that she will have an abortion and then turn to God, thanking him for the release from bearing a child that she could never love. She could learn many lessons from that experience and could, in fact, become closer to God. I am really not trying to be flip about this. I am deadly serious. If God can create a beautiful, healthy, wonderful little baby in a loving, joyful, accepting mother's womb, why can't it be God who causes his death just before he is born, as in the case of many stillborn births? Of course you believe that He is responsible, and that it is not for us to know why. We just have to put faith in God that he has a bigger plan for that mother and that baby. If that is true, then how can WE be the ones who decide for ALL mothers what they must or must not do when it comes to procreation in their bodies? If it is between a woman and God, WE have no right to intervene one way or the other. WE ARE NOT GOD. We are just people.

late: Unfortunately not all people share your beliefs in the scriptures of the Bible. And many, many of those who do not share your beliefs are well-educated and intelligent human beings. Many have studied the Bible and were in fact, raised within a Christian community. In this country, we have the right to believe whatever we choose to believe. It is admirable that you want to show ignorant souls the pathway to Christ, but you must understand that not everyone who has different beliefs from you is ignorant of the Bible. If we are to have a peaceful nation, we must learn to respect each other, whether or not share the same reverence for the Bible.

Lap_Dancer: You're right, in the first part of my post I was making an assumption that an abortion would be done very early on in a pregnancy. However in the second part of my post, I explained that whether or not the fetus is "viable" outside the womb is irrelevant to my belief that the government should not be making medical decisions for women in this country. If we all did have the same beliefs and belonged to the same church, then it might make sense for the government to intervene, but the fact is that we do not all share the same beliefs and the only way this country can keep even a modicum of freedom for its' citizens is if we separate church and state. Otherwise, we could all wind up being the country (like Iraq) that is in a state of internal turmoil and war.

katt: Thanks for joining in and telling a bit of your story. Your daughter sounds like a phenominal woman. I have never understood how some people are able to have and manage large families so well. I was one of those parents who freaked out everytime the kids got a splinter. Now that they are grown and healthy, I realize how tense I was all the time and how that contributed to my not enjoying being around kids that much. I love my own with all my heart and soul, but I don't always understand other peoples' kids and don't always enjoy being around them. I guess it's because I feel so responsible for them and I'm worried they'll get physically hurt or intellectually damaged by something I have the ability to prevent. People who have large, happy families don't seem to be uptight at all. They don't freak out when they're low on food, they just manage to stretch it with more water in the beans. They expect all the older ones to pitch in and help the younger ones. I never put that responsibility on my older child because I thought it wasn't fair. But as it turns out, I wasn't doing him any favors. It is good for children to learn how to take care of each other and they learn a great deal in the process. (I was the youngest of four and was never around small children.) My DH was the oldest of 6 and when we got married he didn't want to have children. I eventually talked him into having just one (I already had a son from a previous marriage that he had adopted). She's awesome and we're so glad we did have her. But neither of us ever wanted more kids and I'm not even one of those doting grandmothers that we all admire. I love my grandchildren, but I raised mine and it was an all consuming job that I am way over.

nume130: Yes, that definitely sums it up very nicely. My first husband did a similar thing to me when we were just married and in college. I was working, on my feet, from 8 AM until at least 8 PM, Tues. thru Sat.. I was the sole breadwinner. I was only able to take a couple of classes that met on Mondays. I didn't get to go to any football games or participate in the usual college fun stuff. He did. He was in the school of architecture. They stayed up all night lots of nights working on projects. Many other nights he "had" to study with a group. He was offered a job with the city, because he won a competition. He would have the opportunity to design things like parks and playgrounds. He turned it down because "he didn't have enough time." Although they said he could work whatever hours he chose, whenever it was convenient. The last straw for me happened the last semester we were together at that school. The government put the word out that male students had to be enrolled in a minimum of 15 hours per semester in order to qualify for a deferment, which would keep him from being drafted and away from Viet Nam. Yeah, you guessed it, he enrolled in 14. I was taking a one hour interior design class on Monday nights that he could have picked up - it was a no brainer. He refused. Just after that semester ended, in June, he got his "Greetings" as we used to call the letter commanding you to report for your physical for the draft - which meant that you were going! It took me a long time to sort out all the things like that, that he did to damage me and our marriage during the four years we were married. He had an uncanny ability (who knows where he got it) to turn everything around and make any bad occurrence, all my fault. My family and friends knew the score, but his family and our joint friends, and our church kept telling me that I had to make it work. You can imagine the guilt when I finally had enough and got a divorce. Throughout the whole thing I was the bad guy. We had a beautiful little boy - not even one year old - and I hadn't finished college and had no really good means to support us. I had sustained an eye problem and could no longer work 12 hour days on my feet. Let me tell you for sure and for certain, the divorce was the best decision I have ever made in my life - bar none! My only regret is that I didn't get the divorce 6 months after we got married. Four years doesn't seem like a long time to you and in comparison to your investment in your life, your children and your marriage, it is small. But my life would have been so much different if I hadn't tried so hard to be the perfect, supporting wife and mother. If I had just once looked at the big picture and realized that it was MY life too and that I needed to take care of myself. By the time we got divorced, he had manipulated me so much, for so long, that I felt like I had 2 kids, not one. I totally supported us during our whole marriage, except for the measly pay that the Army provided while he was training and in Viet Nam. He paid child support occasionally - $85 per month! Such a small amount because he told the court that was all he could afford. It didn't even cover day care, which didn't matter anyway, since he didn't pay it very often (only when I called him and demanded it.) My advice is: cut your losses. Get on with your life. Stop blaming yourself!

Mark, you little rascal, you may not be happy but you sure can be funny!! Miss reading your posts. I know there's something cool going on somewhere that I don't know about...maybe I need to go alurking.

serious: Good for you!!! Great post. We appreciate you sharing some of your wisdom and experiences. Sure there are people of every race who are bad people. That's why you just cannot prejudge people and write them off before you really know them. It's already been said here that Lee's remarks remind many of us of a former poster who claimed to be the best and most knowledgeable Christian you could ever meet. After weeks of following his posts and interacting with him at LBT, many of us realized that his heart was not as pure as he claimed. He could be brutal when trying to make a point. Bad people come in all shapes (even fat) and sizes and colors. Good people do too.

Green you made some outstanding observations in your previous post. How in the world can a white Amercian woman, who was raised in an white community with practically no exposure to African Americans, have a clue about what it's like to be a black man in America? The only way I know how to understand, at least a little, is by observation and research. But neither of those two things really allow us to FEEL what it is like. I know even less about what it is like to be Jewish and experience anti-semitism because I have been around even fewer Jewish people than blacks. However even though I can't really know what it feels like, I know how ridiculous it is for people to be so bigoted. I think people who are racist are ignorant as hell and consequently they are afraid of what they don't know. There is absolutely no way that the color of a person's skin can tell you what kind of person they are. As with the plight of American Indians, I doubt if we will ever be able to make up for all the horrible wrongs that have been done to them as well as black and Jewish people in America. Sure, to lose a job to someone because of reverse discrimination seriously sucks. But when you experience it, you just begin to have a tiny clue as to the reason for the governmental policies that endorse reverse discrimination in America.

It sounds great except for the tomato. You mention tomatoes pretty often. They are just not all that easy for me to eat. I can do the center pretty easily, but the skin is a problem. Otherwise I might just try your recipe. I'll give you my report when I get time to try it~ Blueberries are nutritionally fantastic. I can eat one or two by themselves, but then I tend to want something around them or under them, like a cheesecake. So I don't have blueberries very often. You are doing so well, Green. I am very proud of you. Do you think that you've just reached the "sweet spot" everyone talks about with your fills? I don't hear you mention fills. I've been getting them pretty often and that just doesn't seem right to me. I wish I could get to a place where I wasn't so hungry and didn't obsess about food so much. Every single day I say I'm going to do better and most days I still struggle. :phanvan