BJean

I sure don't want to argue about this - who gave what, etc. But I just find it very hard to understand how one study provides proof positive that more conservatives give to charity than liberals do. In order to honestly know the facts - who cares and gives the most - you would have to poll all of the people who donate and that just isn't very likely to be possible. You can do a sampling, but then we know about those things, don't we? Remember how all of the exit polls after the 2000 presidential election showed that Al Gore was winning by a landslide? Remember the networks having to retract all of their projections? ALL of the exit polls were wrong - hmmmm, or were they? Were the exit polls skewed or were the elections skewed? :faint:

The Down's Syndrome baby died last year - he was 33 years old! I just feel that every person, every situation, every set of circumstances is unique and can only be decided by the people involved. I can't truck with the nonsense that pro-lifers get to make all the decisions for every woman in each and every case of unwanted pregnancy. Some women would be tortured by the idea of being forced to have an abortion. Some women would be tortured by the idea of being forced to bear a child. One set of beliefs does not fit all. One group of people are not be in a position to force a woman to either have an abortion or have a child. Slavery has been brought up time and again here. Slavery is when a woman is forced to bear a child against her will. Slavery is when a woman is forced to have an abortion against her will.

Elena M: I too feel very compassionate for your friend who was forced to undergo 2 abortions when she would have much rather had the babies. No wonder she is so conflicted even now about this. I am happy to see that there are so many people here who are posting who have suggestions for organizations to help your friend. It does make me wonder though. I had 2 good friends who got pregnant when we were seniors in high school. Both on the cheerleading squad with me... but I digress. The point is that one of them had an abortion, which she very much wanted. The other was sent to St. Louis to a home for wayward women. Her mother forced her to do this and have the child. The child was born with Down's Syndrome. The friend who had the abortion went on to complete our senior year and she participated in all the academic, Pep Squad, Drama and Debate activies where she excelled. She graduated from college, went to grad school, became a teacher, got married, had four children, and became a principal. She has never regretted her decision. The second girl, whose mother insisted that she NOT get an abortion which was against the law at the time, wound up having to get her high school diploma a year late after giving her baby up for adoption. She went to college in fits and spurts and wound up becoming an RN. The adoption never happened, because no one wanted her Down's Syndrome baby. She wound up taking the little guy back and raising him herself. She has been married 3 times, has 3 other children, all normal, and is as looney as Bugs Bunny. Do you feel compassion for these women as much as for the girl that Elena told us about? Do you have any clue as to why I might feel so pro-choice?

Are you just trying to be obtuse gadget, or do you really think that I am the person who needs to come up with proof for one of your arguments? You got it backasswards and you won't find me going out to prove that ALL EARLY FEMINISTS WERE PRO-LIFE or that they weren't. It is a completely ridiculous statement and there is no way you can know that ALL early feminists were pro-life. Having you make these kinds of big pronouncements here are like fingernails grating on a chalkboard... very irritating. Mark has it right in that our arguing here only possibly helps others to solidify in their own minds exactly how or how strongly they feel about this issue. That is why the pro-life people go to such horrid extremes when they paint pictures about abortion. It's a tactic that I am sure works or they wouldn't do it. Unless they just enjoy being extremely gross. Now I'm not talking about them waving signs with an actual aborted blob of tissue, surrounded with the sac, blood and other tissue that has actually come from a real abortion. Because I haven't actually seen that. (Not that they're above that) I've just seen photos of babies at certain gestational ages and words that say something like "this is a baby at ...(fill in the blank) weeks!!!" Murderer, Baby Killer!!! And Mark is right. It has nothing to do with a woman's rights. It's an inflammatory argument thrown in so that passionate people can try to convince other people that their belief that we women have no right to that tiny fertilized egg affixing itself to the wall of our uterus, possibly against our will. They don't allow that woman any right to determine for herself whether she will give that fertilized egg blood, nourishment, air, and all the other things it will need to grow, be born and become a living breathing human being, with all the possibilities and responsibilities of every other human being on this earth. Right now, pro-lifers believe that THEY are the ones who get to decide for that impregnanted mother what she will do when faced with this huge, huge decision about bringing a life into the world. They are the ones who have decided that they can enslave women to do their bidding. They want all of us good people to believe that they are completely looking out for the fertilized egg. When sometimes I wonder if they aren't in the baby brokering business. That's an ugly thing to say, but let's face it there are people in this world who do just that. And they want more of the commodity that they profit from.

Sorry I haven't been around for the past few days. I REALLY am. won't go into the details, but you'd be surprised about what is going on in my life. Posting here takes a backseat, big time. gadget you're badgering me to supply names of early feminists who were not pro-life, but you're the one who made the statement that ALL early feminists were pro-life. It is up to you to provide proof of that. You have not provided proof of that by naming some names. It is not incumbent upon me to furnish you names of early feminists who were not pro-life. I just know that you don't have any proof of what you claim. No studies have been established or background done to prove what you say about all early feminists being pro-life. We don't even know who ALL the early feminists were. Consequently as I have suspected all along, much of what you say is wishful thinking on your part. As I have seen in the past, many of the sources you cite here are from extreme and biased origins. Which is fine by me. That's your perrogative to post such things to make your point. But I hope you don't think that all of us fail to understand what you're doing. Jodie- as when we exhanged talking points previously, I feel very sorry for you. I know you will become defensive and outraged because I said that. But I can't help feeling sorry for you and way you describe your life and your baby's father and the way your child was conceived. When you have full-time, total and complete responsibility for a small human being who looks to you for its' very survival, 24/7, being so sure of yourself could certainly come in handy. But I just think there will be many times when you'll be wondering what the heck you were thinking when you became pregnant. I'm shocked to see your sonogram that you say was made at 6-7 weeks gestation (was it?). My daughter just had a sonogram at 8 weeks gestation and the baby is nowhere near that developed. Listen you all, it's easy to understand... a fertilized egg is a living growing thing which is fully a part of its' mother-host. It is not an individual no matter how much you want that to be true. You need to just go with your instincts and beliefs and forget trying to convince people that a tiny fetus is a baby, in and of itself. It cannot be an individual human being until it IS an individual human being. Be that as it may, a million people (or whatever the number you toss out there) cannot make reproductive decisions for the other millions of people in the world. It is impossible. It has never worked that way and it never will. Telling everyone else what you believe to be true just doesn't make it true to everyone else. I don't expect you to give up your "fight" for "all human life" but I expect you to respect the right of all of the other people to believe differently than you.

P.S. I have absolutely no quarrel with women or men who do not believe that women should get abortions. I have no problem with people who wish to counsel pregnant women and help them make the best possible choice whatever their particular circumstances. I have no problem with people thinking for themselves and deciding what they believe on this issue. I have a problem with people who think they are more capable of making decisions for a woman, regarding her reproductive organs (with or without a fertilized egg firmly implanted), than the woman herself.

How do you know that all early feminists were pro-life? Where was this ever published? I know that several early feminists made their views known on this, but I know of no study that has been done so that you will be correct in stating that ALL early feminists were pro-life. You anti-choice people will stop at nothing. You use every possible means to characterize abortions and the women that get them as murderers, pure and simple. It ain't pure and simple, this having children. It is very, very important and I believe you trivialize it by commanding that every woman everywhere be compelled to have children whether they are healthy or sick women, forming healthy or sick babies, whether their babies are known to be severely handicapped in utero or whether the mother is a raving lunatic. You seem to want to be defined as being loving, caring human beings, but I have a hard time seeing you in that light. You sound selfish and extreme to the point of stopping at nothing to ensure that your will is imposed on every woman in the world. I find your approach terrifying for so many reasons. I hope that this tactic of yours continues because it puts the rest of America on guard against our taking this very, very important law for granted.

Green: Watercolors. The difficulty for me is that I tend to want to make a pencil drawing first that is perfect - and then have fun with the watercolors to make it pretty. I had a lady once (who was a pastel artist) tell me that a painting of mine, which I actually liked, looked like a paint by numbers. Yee-gads. Could she have been any more insulting? I would love to learn to be a watercolor artist who sits on top of the mountain with wet brush in hand, slashing out the scene below with a minimum of brush strokes. Then stand back and say, by jove I think I've got it. This masterpiece looks like a re-creation of that valley and it leaves me breathless. Usually I draw, look at it, gag, erase, draw, draw, look, gag, erase... and so on. Cota129: Exciting stuff, tournament Scrabble. I play Scrabble with my DH sometimes. Any insider hints you can slip me so I can beat him more often? Haven't heard the term "commune" for a long time. I thought about it once. The 7 of us even looked for a farm in Virginia, but you can't buy a farm with twigs and berries. Later I decided that I was probably not cut out for commune living. I value my space and alone time too much. Did you like it? Jazlady: I share some of the items on your list. I think if new challenges are fun for you, sticking to one career might be difficult. I have had lots of interesting and fun "careers" but they only kept me interested for about 2 to 3 years at a time. Makes you feel like you don't possess the ole stick-to-it-tive-ness gene sometimes, but I've learned to embrace the challenges and not worry about it when I want to move on. Of course it doesn't make for tenure with a company that provides all the benefits of a lifetime career. But like you, I've been an independent contractor or business owner myself a lot too. Focus is what you and I need. And that's an illusive bugger sometimes. laurend: If someone had asked me to guess which movies are on laurend's top 100 favorite movies list, Gidget movies wouldn't have even made last place. I am very surprised. You seem like such a solid, grounded, intellectual person. Gidget characters weren't exactly all that. But maybe you use them to mentally escape and allow your brain some rest from all that thinking! I appreciate that you are not an intellectual "snob" like some of my college buddies were! That makes you a much more interesting person, by far!

Oh I quite agree MetalBand! Both parties line their pockets! No question about that. But the debt that we're in is frightening to me. And I agree that we're headed downhill on a runaway train. I don't know how anyone can actually want the job of President of the U.S. Of course on the upside, whatever good a new Pres does, will look darned good to us after what we've been through for the past 8 years. Sorry, L8BloomR, a political discussion exposes the raw feelings whether we mean for it to or not. Btw, I would like for you to cite the "non-partisan" study that shows that "liberals" gave less than "conservatives" to the needy. First of all, if the "non-partisan" study clumped liberals with non-religious people, the study is completely flawed. Just as flawed as if it clumped conservatives with religious people. And just because it was large and non-partisan doesn't mean it was a non-biased study with valid results. Not if it was structured the way you stated it.

SSDiva: I am so impressed with your ability to express your thoughts and feelings. Some people thought that "The Passion of the Christ" was a wonderful, marvelous, fantastic movie. I believe it exploited the story of Jesus for profit and to try to shame people into feeling badly about how He was treated. The guy (Mel Gibson, an alcoholic - probably with horrible guilt and demons of his own) who made the movie, must feel really good about all the graphic flying flesh and blood that he blew up for the big screen. It was one of the most gory, graphic movies that I've ever seen. It made me want to vomit. I didn't feel guilty, I felt disgust toward the person responsible for such an exploitative vehicle. I also want to vomit when some people try to pull the same profitable stunt by carying placards with bloody photos of dead fetuses outside abortion clinics. They are hoping to guilt women into bearing children that they are unable to love, nurture and take care of. In fact, many of those anti-choice, anti-abortion, anti-compassionate people will use any means to try to convince people that abortion is a hideous, horrific, bloody, painful, regretful, murderous act. They want to believe that each and every woman who chooses abortion will be plagued for life with visions of death and blood and gore over that choice. What balderdash! They believe the ends justify the means, so it's okay for them to use ridiculous "parallels" equating slavery to abortion, or any other thing they can so that they may be able to shock people into believing that abortion is the murder of a living, breathing, viable human being, and not a relatively simple medical procedure that should be made available as a choice. Listen, science is science, and nature being what it is, women must absolutely MUST have it in their power to terminate a pregnancy that threatens their lives. I find it one of the most ironic things in the world that anti-choice people don't care one whit about a woman whose birth control has failed, or who has been raped, or who is simply not able to healthily carry a child to term - for any reason. They care about the baby because the baby has no voice of his own. Uh right, sure. Well what they don't get and never will get is that they have no right, NONE, to interject their wishes upon that baby or that mother. The only person with that right is the mother. That is because without the mother the child doesn't exist. The child is dependent upon the mother-host for it to have any chance for survival. Interjecting themselves between a mother and a fertilized egg while it is in the mother's uterus, is ludicrous. We have had that kind of law in place before and the result was horrific. Like I said, this thing may not go quietly away with a change in the Oval Office, but believe me, many, many of us will never put up with the government interjecting itself into women's uteruses again. By the way, you made an excellent point about legislating bodily functions. What if we passed a law that said that the government gets to decide when and if a woman can have a baby? What if we were so overrun with children that it threatened our planet? What if women were compelled BY LAW to HAVE abortions? Well, if you can force a woman to have a baby, it isn't too much of a stretch to say that we can force a woman NOT to have a baby, given the right circumstances. Neither scenario would be right or good. We just won't stand for it. Nor should we. Thank you for your passionate and thoughtful post, SSDiva. We must stay united to ensure that women never become just a commodity in this country.

What is life? How do you define life? Of course it is science. And why do you get to be in control? Why do you get to decide who gets help and who suffers and dies? Because one life is supported by another life, but it has no vocal ability makes it acceptable for you to speak for them? You can say what they want and deserve in spite of the potential death of another person? I don't think so. You're not the person who knows how to make medical decisions in life or death situations in each and every case for everyone else. You don't get to decide who should or should not be euthanized or aborted. You get to decide for yourself. Period. Stop appointing yourself God or Mother Earth, or savior or whatever life saving moniker you've decided you deserve.

Gasp. I agree Mark. It's terribly hard to appreciate the backward reasoning.

Honestly Metal, I'm trying not to be judgmental. I totally understand what you're saying. In some ways, the government is definitely broke. My argument is more about what the Republicans promise and what they deliver. I believe that at least the Democrats care about the country more and about individuals more than the Republicans have demonstrated. I believe that we've been trying to get rid of welfare fraud and that we have made inroads. There are lots of other problems and lots of programs that cost us more than the welfare program. I don't like any fraud or waste in government. I just disagree with you that the Republicans have the answers or care enough to fix any of it. They only do what it takes to get elected and line their own pockets. In my humble opinion. Hey, that's why we have the two-party system. Doesn't make us bad people because we vote one way or the other. The whole election process is tainted anyway. If we allowed ourselves to really dissect the way the government is run, we'd probably move to Canada.

I was being serious. I do not doubt that you have solid sources. My head is never going to be buried in the sand. That's kind of an odd characterization, actually. Just because I disagree with you doesn't mean that I am unaware of the issues. Know this. I will never, ever agree with you about taking away women's rights. It doesn't matter how many horrific scenarious or obtuse parallels you dig up. There will ALWAYS be women who need the abortion option, whether you believe that option is moral or reasonable or not. All the picketing, grisly photos, name-calling, finger-pointing and declarations of when life begins will never change the fact that women will make their choice, one way or other, legal or illegal, for themselves. I just hope we don't go back to shooting doctors outside their clinics again. Because this time, I believe some people are going to shoot back.

They get elected and then they personally get richer. You and I usually do not get richer when the Republicans are in power. Somehow you and I are going to have to pay for this war they've waged and it is not an insignificant amount. And it is more, I'm willing to bet, than any amount of money we've spent on Dorito-eating Judge Joe Brown viewers.

Duh. I'd like to keep more than half what you make too. Kidding, of course. I don't know what you make but I'd bet you'd like to keep ALL of what you make. I'm sure you'd do your part for those unfortunate Americans who needed serious help through no fault of their own, if we let you keep ALL the money you work for. Right? Nobody wants to foot the bill for good-for-nothing, Dorito-eating, Judge Joe Brown watching people. The difference between you and me is that I believe that there are some very good government programs (although I admit that some are extremely poorly run). I don't mind working some of my week to see to it that we can provide a decent education for our children. I will work to make sure that if someone is hit by a car, that they can be treated at a hospital whether they have insurance or not. I know that the reason we enjoy such a wonderful way of life here in America is because we have worked for it. We contribute to our country in so many ways and that is what keeps it great for everyone. If it gets too lopsided in this country, if the rich continue to just keep getting richer while the poor and middle class get poorer, things WILL change. And not for the better. I know I came off as not understanding your point, but I do understand how unfair it feels when you think people are sponging off you and you see that significant amount of money going to taxes every week out of your paychecks. But the Republicans haven't, nor are they going to, put a stop to that. They just like to make you think they are. They are experts at spin when it comes to elections. It's what they do best... they get elected.

Dude, I'm not dissing the Pres because he salutes the flag draped coffins of our military... I'm dissing him because he is responsible for their deaths. Yeah, Democrats are war mongers, that's for sure!

The band is not something that will solve all our problems. It makes very few decisions about food for us. It does some, of course, but most of it is up to us. We still have the same issues after surgery as we did before surgery. What we have to do is figure out a way to care enough about ourselves that we fight our way to reaching a point where we enjoy having healthy bodies and healthy self esteem and being happy, more than we like eating fat-laden, super rich, super foods and being depressed. I believe that nature is going against us all the time. I believe losing is complicated and keeping it off is a never-ending problem. But I also know that being obese is killing us, killing our self esteem and robbing us of a better way of life. We can get the band and get a reminder that we're overeating and have a tool to help us find our way. But the work, both mental and physical, is up to us. We have to enjoy what we can accomplish in our road to success. We have to pat ourselves on the back when no one else has a clue how hard it was for us to not eat a hot fudge sundae, or bag of chips, or our kids' Halloween candy. Each and every time that we do NOT eat something that we know would make us feel good, we have to congratulate ourselves and tell ourselves that we are worth it!!

P.S. When I grew up, we saluted the flag when it was in motion (a parade, for instance, or when it was being moved down an aisle) and we saluted when we were saying the Pledge of Allegience to the Flag. That was the ONLY time it was deemed appropriate to salute our flag. We didn't salute during the National Anthem. It was a song which was sung often without the flag being present. Things have changed some these days due to the increased military presence we encounter. Many times our Armed Forces salute when regular citizens aren't expected to. Republicans would like for everyone to believe that they have a corner on patriotism - what a joke. They don't seem to believe in Americans as much as they believe in themselves. The truth is: that Republicans are no more war mongers than Democrats are afraid of war. Neither extreme is true. One can win an argument about the issues without being ridiculous and personally insulting.

Obama forgets to salute flag, forgets to wear flag button, etc., etc., Yet Bush never misses a chance to salute the flag, wear a flag button or salute flag-draped coffins returning from Iraq and Afghanistan. Wow! Things are just crazy in this country!!

I don't doubt for one minute that you're not making this stuff up, gadget. Why would we doubt your sincerity or sources? Because they're so outrageous? No, we've come to expect it here on this thread. It comes with the territory of the abortion discussion. We're used to it. No one has to be reasonable or sane here. Craziness seems to come with the territory. We just have to be passionate. And no one can deny our passion in this discussion, can they? Oh wait, I signed off. I'm going to try again, even if someone finds something even more outrageous to post. And I'm sure that is possible. Where's that beating a dead horse icon when you need it?

You continued speaking about humanity and you're right - what someone says or thinks is humanity doesn't make it humanity. It's biology, pure and simple. And let's face it, fertilized eggs can't speak for themselves because they aren't selves yet. Don't go clumping every woman with an unwanted pregnancy in your little "selfish" box. Some women have abortions because they are not selfish. This issue isn't simple. It isn't cut and dried, even though you think that it is simple and cut and dried. I have no statistics to back it up, but I'd bet more educated women have abortions than uneducated ones. It may have nothing to do with the education though. Speak out all you want. That's what free speech is all about. I will continue to do the same and believe me, when the serious marches come, you will be outnumbered. Right now, women think they are protected by the law from people who believe they have the right to tell them what to do about abortion. Once they understand your agenda, they will demonstrate it much better than I ever could. So this is a good thread and although you'd think it would die since we've nearly said it all, it probably won't. (That's for my granddaughter, looking over my shoulder. It's one of her favorites. This is the other: and she LOVES this :rain: one and :whoo: and :heh: Woo-hoo, we're having fun now! :kiss2:)

Whoa. This is plumb ridiculous! If you hate people, leave 'em alone. Talk about baiting...

Ok. I get it. I don't need anymore of your list of perceived problems with the left wing. I certainly do not agree with much on your list. I doubt if you agree with much on mine. One thing we can agree on that Voondabah mentioned, is that by the time a person is at the point that they can compete politically on a national level, they've already sold their souls and it doesn't matter which party it is. It's really disheartening no matter who you decide to support with your vote. The best we can do is to support the person and platform that we find more in tune with our beliefs, and to let our voices be heard as much as possible. P.S. I, for one, do not wish to take your guns away. I believe everyone in the U.S. should own at least one gun and should be well-practiced at shooting any guns they own.

Vikki- that was a great post! Thanks. Living in So. Cal has to be tough if you're overweight. Everyone is trying so hard to look like movie stars. I just got back from L.A. and felt the discrimination, that is very real.