BJean

Robin I would love to count you as a friend of mine. You are thoughtful, intelligent and I know that to sit across from you over coffee, I would learn something. I am sorry, L8Bloom that you decided that I was getting personal with you several pages past. I wasn't getting personal at all. I was trying to make my own point and I did not mention your name in the process at all. I was shocked by your accusation that I was being harsh. Unless of course that harsh is anyone who disagrees with you. I can understand that - DEFINITELY - because the many times here, the harshest people are the ones who claim to have the best interests of unborn babies at heart. I have been surprised at the level of venom that has flown toward a young lady who has given us much to debate here. The bottom line here is that if you don't believe in abortion, then don't have them. Do all you can to convince others that they shouldn't have abortions, if you choose. I believe differently than you and I believe that the government and you have no business telling me what to believe and how to conduct my own private medical decisions. I do not insist that anyone of you embrace my beliefs and I would never dream of insisting that one of you have an abortion, even if I knew for a fact that your child would be a burden on me personally. If you want to bring trot out heartstring-tugging stories, believe me I could add some of my own about my DD and the unfortunate deaths of her two babies in utero. Those deaths in no way cause me to change my beliefs about women's right to choose.

To tell you the truth, the reason the reference to $150 shoes grates on my nerves is because of an experience I had in Orlando several years ago. I was one of the founders of a wonderful group for women whereby we worked in many areas of our community to help those in need. One of our members is an extremely wealthy woman who has been very fortunate in business. She also has a heart of gold. Another member worked, totally hands-on, with indigent children in an after school program, 5 days a week at her Presbyterian church downtown. Most of those children in that program were African American. When the first woman, Mrs. Steinfeld, asked the second woman, Mrs. Brown, what she thought would be a nice Christmas present for those kids, Mrs. Brown said that a great pair of althletic shoes would make them very, very happy. Well, Mrs. Steinfeld threw a huge party for those 30 kids. She did a lot of beautiful and thoughtful things for those kids. One of the things she did was to buy a pair of $200 Michael Jordan shoes for each and every one of them. So to hear stories about how kids show up at school in expensive shoes, but that they are on welfare and resented by people, it makes me nuts. You can't be sure, unless you do the research, exactly how they came to be owners of expensive athletic shoes. I will defer in the argument about general welfare abuse to the person whose in-laws are welfare abusers. She obviously knows first hand of their sources for every bit of food and clothing (and smokes) that they have acquired.

Btw, I do not believe that citing statistics that reveal that convicted murderers claim to be of one religion or another is necessarily incorrect. It makes total sense. I mean think about the big picture. How many people in the U.S., for instance, claim to be of one religion or other as opposed to having no religious affiliation? I don't have the numbers, but I would imagine that there are many, many more people with religious affiliation than those with no religious affiliation. Think about under what conditions and by whom the question was asked. If it is taken on just its' own merit, it doesn't however, make a convincing argument that religious people are more violent or murderous. It only points to a need for more in-depth study, doesn't it?

To suggest that doctors perform abortions just to make money is very biased and judgmental. Many doctors have compassion and a sense of what's in the best interests of their patients when they perform abortions. Please stop speaking in absolutes just to make your point. It makes for a less than credible argument.

Sorry LR, that whole $150 shoe thing really grates on my nerves. I don't have a problem talking about issues that need reform, but that particular line of thinking sounds pretty extreme and encapsulated to me. It isn't that I don't believe that it ever exists. I know what you mean about the irritation of people placing blame on the government or the Republicans or Clinton, etc. It gets old having people use extreme examples when they are against something. Unfortunately it's how it's done here in the good ole' U.S. of A. The media has made us experts at using sound bytes when we're wanting to make a point instead of citing in-depth proof. Of course it also results in some lively debates here at LBT too. So I guess it's not ALL bad.

Thanks for the quick assessment of the game, Dynamo! It sounds great. I used to play Bridge all the time and loved it. My problem was with the people who took the game too seriously and ruined it for others. There's definitely a place for serious Bridge, but at a social gathering isn't one of them. I read that Green plays Mah Jongg sometimes online. I'll go there and see if I can get a better feeling for the game. It sure sounds intriguing. Btw, the DH and I got one of those revolving Scrabble boards a few years ago and it makes that game much more fun. We haven't had it out in a while, so glad you reminded me. Thanks phyll. Phyll, I used to live in Sierra vista, AZ. Where do you mostly RV in AZ? It's been 20+ years since Sierra Vista and I still miss it sometimes. The weather is ideal (to my thinking) in the high desert.

I wonder, truthfully, how many people on welfare have $150 shoes, plasma TVs, cell phones and Ipods. It is very popular to say things like that since we all resent the enormous taxes we pay, but how many of us truly resent helping people when they are down on their luck and can't feed and clothe their children? Just because some government programs are bad doesn't mean that all government programs are bad. In fact, the Republican administration has made lots of noise about getting rid of big government, but the government has only gotten bigger while they have been in power. One of the things I resent is our tax dollars going to pay for the government subctractors in Iraq who are making millions by doing the jobs that our military cannot do because they are under-funded and under staffed. Thousands of our reserve military once enlisted because they wanted to serve our nation in times of natural disasters, but who in no way expected ever to spend years of their lives in the forefront of a war. Not only have they sacrificed with lost years, but so many have sacrified with lost lives! I believe that this war is criminal and much more of a drain on our national resources than people on welfare have ever been. I know that is not a popular thing to voice here, but I really get tired of hearing about all the many welfare recipients who have $150 shoes, Ipods, plasma TVs and the like. If there is still a major problem with welfare fraud, let's fix it. Getting rid of it completely isn't the right answer.

Isn't a bay some breed of horse? Sorry, couldn't resist trying to lighten it up a little. I believe I do agree with gadget, I don't understand why people get so up in arms about women making the decision to abort based on the lack, or failure, of birth control methods. The devastation of an unwanted pregnancy can be just as unhealthy for some women who have failed (or no) birth control as it is for women who have been savagely raped and beaten who have become pregnant. The intrusion of the government in women's lives by forcing all women to bear children, whether they are or aren't healthy emotionally and/or physically, is simply wrong.

Uh I get it green, wink nudge... you wascal! Kat isn't that the darndest thing to learn after years of dancing with just old common fellas! I knew that guys liked very slow dancing, but I just thought it was because they got to be cheek to cheek with us and hold our hands. Little did I know it wasn't their cheeks that were enjoying the ride. Nice to know the two of you had similar mind blowing relevations with subsequent serious link ups. Woo hoo! :bounce:

Happy Birthday a day late, Sunshine! Hope it was a good one! Dynamo: Is Mah jongg hard to learn? I knew a few friends who used to have a group when I lived in Orlando, but I never had the time to join them. I've always been interested in learning, but never really had the opportunity. Are the games expensive, for the most part? How many people make a good game?

Green I was thinking the same thing!The Baptist teenagers in our town were not allowed to go to our sock hops (for lack of a better term) even to just hang out. Once one of the baseball players for the church team went there in his Baptist Baseball Team uniform (Christians for God, I think they were called) in an effort to find his girlfriend. The following Sunday morning, he and his parents were called to the front of the church and chastised severely. Sure made an impression on me. I couldn't imagine what all the hubbub was about. It was just dancing, for pete's sake! I used to love to dance to popular music with a partner who could dance well and provided a good lead. There were a couple of guys in high school who were excellent and we moved around the floor like we were floating. Awesome. Then in college I took ballroom dancing which would have been fun if it hadn't been for the crazy teacher who carried a long cue stick to tap us on the shoulder or smack us in the middle of our backs. What a nut. I finally started cutting class and wound up with a "D" in ballroom dancing. Well deserved, I might add. I'll never forget the first time I realized that dancing could be something more than just two people moving in sync to the beat of some wonderful music. I was shocked. It was with my husband on our third date on a dark dance floor with a live band at the officer's club in Ft. Lee, Virginia. I actually had impure thoughts. It was hot, hot, hot. There was an electricity generated between us that continues to this day. We're coming up on 35 years!!! Who knew the Baptists could be onto something?

On an earlier thread, sometime back, I kept ending my posts to green with "a" instead of "eh" thinking that someone would get the joke, but alas I think everyone just decided I couldn't get control of my left pinky, eh? Marie is like 48 or something. Not quite 50, so she should she should still have some get up and go! She was always a beat or two behind the music (as it was) and I got the impression that it took her brain that long to figure out where her next step was supposed to be. Either that or she was having serious trouble schlepping her ample thighs (according to my plasma) up and over whatever they were supposed to be up and over. I like the fact that she kept her sense of humor but lawzee the drama, girl! Wow. Fainting, parent dying, son in rehab - could there be anymore reasons for giving her all the sympathy votes? I was thrilled that Helio and Julianne won. I felt that Scary Spice had an unfair advantage because of her Spicy performing and coached background. Besides has there ever been a more perfect dancer or choreographer on the planet that Julianne? What a brilliant 19 year old. I fully expect to see her offered up a big movie or Broadway play next. As for Helio, I respect him because he was smart enough to listen to and trust Julianne completely. No, I don't vote. I only dance vicariously through those wild and crazy totally maniacal ballroom dancers. And whooeee, you described Wayne Newton to a tee! Whoever got hold of his puss must have been the same dude that butchered Kenny Rogers! (Flesh covered teacups" snicker, hee hee. Some are like flesh covered mugs!!! Yeeeech!)

tiffero: Great post. You sound like a very cool, responsible person.

The most painful part to watch when Marie was dancing last night were all the lifts. You could almost hear the goan when her partner heaved her over his shoulder. Every lift and drop was a couple of seconds (seemed like minutes) after the beat. It was like they had to think about what was coming, brace themselves, and then wham.. go for it! I actually thought the doll dance was entertaining - but more appropriate for a Carol Burnett skit.

Agnot: Maybe you should explain to your wife that you would never leave her because you've lost weight. But that if she doesn't stop being so negative you might have to leave her, in spite of your undying love for her, so that at least one of you can be happy and work on building your childrens' self esteem. Having a parent be mad at you all the time is so very demoralizing. What your wife doesn't understand is that what happened in her childhood, although it may have been horrendous, is over, done with, kaput. She has an opportunity at this point in time to make her life whatever she wants it to be. Or she can choose to live in the past, dwell in that dark place of fear and disgust, and shut out any possibility of happiness for herself, for her husband and most importantly, for her children. And when you get down to it, that's pretty damned selfish on her part. Whoever wronged her in the past has their own demons to deal with. She can't change what happened, nor those people. They probably will never say they are truly sorry. She just has to learn how to let it go and build a beautiful life, either through faith in herself, her husband (you), her children, or her God, or preferably in all of the above. Granted, all that is easier said than done. With all the psychologists/psychiatrists, drugs and Dr. Phil type people on the tube, we tend to think that it is healthy to bring up the pain of our childhoods. I say balderdash! Fact is, we ALL have painful childhoods in one way or another. What we have to learn to accept is that whoever did us wrong - was WRONG yes - but they can't hurt us anymore unless we keep those memories and that pain fresh in our minds. We have to realize that no one is perfect and that bad things always happen. We just must focus on taking care of ourselves and making a good life for ourselves and our loved ones every single day. She expects you to leave her because she thinks that is what she deserves. She is trying to prepare herself for losing you and her kids' love, because that's what she knows she deserves. What she has to learn is that she deserves a happy life filled with a great husband and great children. No life is perfect, but so what? The bad times wind up making the good times all the more sweet. I hope somehow you can get through to her. If not, maybe she'll consider some medical help, like an antidepressant. It could get her over the hump and allow her to be open to embracing the idea of a beautiful life with you and your children. My heart goes out to her and to you. I hope you can find a way to help her help herself, especially for the children.

Ok I admit it, I watch "Dancing with the Stars" even though they use the term "stars" very loosely. But that Scary Spice! It just ain't right. She's been able to dance and had lots of dance instruction as a Spice Girl, and performed dance numbers in concert so how does she compare to people who don't dance for a living? That's right, she doesn't. She dances really, really well even though I don't care for her partner at all. But I don't think that she deserves to win when she's had such a "leg up" on her competition. Marie Osmond will probably win which is a joke. I mean it isn't a joke if you're just having a popularity contest, and for who has the cutest personality with the biggest teeth, but at this point if anyone but the race car driver wins, the fix is obviously in. :tired

Good point!

Metal: Not to make light of what you made light of... but uh I'd be really surprised if Monica votes Republican after what they did to her. They screwed her much more royally than Billy did with that cigar.

Amen to the piercing of eardrums when the caroles flood the airwaves! :omg: I used to bitch and moan constantly about telemarketers and did everything I could to get them to leave me alone. Then came the flood of heavy tree killing envelopes full of solicitations for credit cards. I get a minimum of 5 per week. I send them right back to them postage prepaid, completely empty. I figure the post office may as well benefit from all those dead trees. :paranoid

Hi MimIN: Hi! I've been out a lot too - miss talking to all you neat September Bandsters!! I too want to wish you all a very Happy Thanksgiving!!! (Let's let the turkeys do all the gobble, gobble, gobble!)

I'm with Green - BAN EVERYTHING. No wait a minute. I don't mean it. I think what we need is a good dose of Miss Manners. If everyone would stop pissing and moaning that they're losing their freedom when it comes to personal habits, and just be respectful of others when they smoke, drink, splash on perfume, take their nail polish off, burp, fart, eat with their mouths open, push in front of other people in lines, cut each other off in traffic, etc. Much of this wouldn't be an issue anymore. Most of what Miss Manners espouses is simple thoughtfulness and courtesy toward others. And what's wrong with that? Have we become so self-centered that we don't give a damn about other people anymore? No, I don't believe it. I think we're just living in such a fast-paced, stress-filled environment we are working with short fuses most of the time. I don't want to go back to the 50's when everything was phoney-baloney, but we need to whoa down a little and try a little tenderness when it comes to dealing with each other. And don't call me Pollyanna!

Uh, how do you pronounce your name? Tits laroo? Cool. Excellent point - a woman next to me pulled out her nail polish on a plane one time and very quickly the flight attendant rushed down the aisle and told her that she would not be permitted to open it during the flight. Also, I returned from England once with several large men who were dressed in long robes. One of them kept going to the back of the plane to the rest room. Everytime he came back, the perfume was stronger. After about the 3rd time, everybody around him (and me) was gagging because it was so strong! It stung my eyes! I don't think the flight attendant said anything to him though but I sure wished she had. It's a long flight from England to the U.S. Talk about miserable!

Gerbils?!!! Well aren't you the lucky, gloating one! I'd love to have little gerbils. Mine are more like big, floppy bunnies. Well, maybe without the ears. And eyes. But the cute pink noses.... ooops. sorry got way outa hand here. Poor laurend's eyes!

Oh yeah. Mooooo.

Anybody besides me feel that sometimes when you're strapping on your bra in the morning, it feels like some kind of friggin' harness? Maybe we should meet in Hawaii and wear MuMus? We're not getting old are we? I mean it doesn't seem that long ago that I had a sweet little Hawaiian lady in Honolulu craft me a custom-made teeny bikini. Well, come to think of it, it's been almost 100 lbs. ago. :faint: