BJean

I totally agree with ya'll. I couldn't believe that they were so hard on Carly, Kristie and Brooke. They were great. I wasn't thrilled with Syesha and they liked her! Go figure! I was really amazed by Kristie's performance. Did anyone notice when Paula mentioned that Kristie planned her progression to become powerful from being weak? I usually really enjoy anything David Cook does, but last night was wierd. First of all I could hardly hear him through most of the song and I had trouble understanding any of the words. If I've heard that song before, I'd never know it. I just was underwhelmed. Didn't like David A.'s performance at all. Also didn't recognize the song, but then I've never been a huge Mariah fan. I know she's incredibly popular but I was surprised to know she's outsold Elvis, for heaven's sake! I think I have a new respect for her. I did know that she wrote her songs and she's sure looking lots better than she was there for a while when she was all puffy. I agree that Carly looked fantastic! Perfect costume. Great pipes! It seems to me that Brooke started out with lots of self-confidence and her voice was stronger. Now that she's taking all the hits from the judges, she seems almost apologetic in her body language and facial expressions. She has a great voice and has so much talent on the guitar and piano. She deserves more respect from them. Has anyone noticed that the performances must sound very different in person than on TV? I think Simon mentioned that last year. Sure seemed like the case last night. Anyway it'll be interesting to see how people voted tonight. I'm sure that someone I really like will be eliminated. The judges just adore little David A and I could live without him for another 5 years or so.

It's amazing how much we can learn when we do put some thought into it and we are all civil. I can't tell you how happy I am that things have done a 180. I really do respect the fact that you believe that it is within your rights to tell women that they shouldn't kill babies. I hope the day never comes when we have such an overabundance of people that our government decides to force women to have abortions. I would argue and fight just as strongly against that kind of government intervention as well.

I didn't hear Nine Inch Nails mentioned, but then I wasn't familiar with the song no matter whose it was. I'll bet the concert was fun. I always think of Jon Bon Jovi as being the ultimate 80's chick dude, but I'm always entertained by him. He's still not hard on the eyes.

Wow. Oh my gosh, Elenation. That was fantastic! I see you in a whole new light after that post! And I really have much more respect for the way you said all that than I did when we were all throwing barbs at each other. I am so glad that you explained yourself in this way. You know we here are just a microcosm of the society at large. Exchanging our thoughts and feelings on this subject undoubtedly gives us a pretty good picture of what most Americans believe about a woman's right to choose, which is truly fascinating. I have to tell both you and LBloom that I agree with practically everything you have said in these last couple of posts. But with a very important exception. I believe that a fertilized egg is a part of life. I just do not believe that it is an actual baby with that one joining of a tiny microscopic cluster of cells. The proper conditions, nutrients, length of time in utero and many other factors come into making a living, breathing human being. Just as a single sperm and a single egg are not individual human beings on their own, neither is the small cluster of cells that happen when a sperm is introduced into the uterus of a fertile woman. All of these things comprise life itself and have the potential for becoming one of god's creatures, but certain criteria must be met for a person to emerge. Fertilization is but one of the steps. But you really can put all of that discussion aside as far as I am concerned. The whole point of this argument to me boils down to the bottom line of one group of people deciding for another group of people just exactly what they should do in the unfortunate event that a woman's egg has been fertilized by a man's sperm without her consent or without the intent of creating a person. Many of you feel that the fertilized egg is too important to kill. I believe that giving a child a life is the most important decision a woman can ever make. The decision to bring a life into the world is a huge, enormous responsibility. A responsible woman will not bring a life into the world that she cannot receive and nurture far beyond that short period of time in her womb. For a woman's right to be taken away by human beings like you and me is an untenable solution IMHO. It just isn't right that the law would require women to bear children that they are unprepared to love, feed, clothe, nurture and protect. The most important factor in considering all of this is: if someone does not believe in abortions, if they believe that a baby shouild be protected by the government at any stage of conception, then they have the right to reject the idea of abortion and they have the right to step up and publicly state their beliefs. That's the law. But for some people to tell others that they have no rights when it comes to making the most important personal decision of their lives and of having control over their own bodies, is wrong and contrary to the very idea of women as equal human beings.

Gloucester: That's a great idea! In fact, I'll bet someone could start a business like that. Someone started a really cute resale shop here for children. They only accept things in perfect condition, including toys and furniture. They started doing a land office business from the moment they opened their doors. Btw, I didn't mean to gross people out with the name brand thing. It's just that I find that certain brands fit me right out the door and they last through washing after washing without fading or pulling loose at the seams or losing their buttons. That's why I like a lot of Target's stuff: they're constructed better and they wash better. Wal-Mart not so much, but since their stuff is so inexpensive, I don't get frustrated when the seams pucker and the colors fade. I'm short too and I've found that there must be a zillion gals who wear my same size. It's like they get one or two of my size (in short) in a shipment and someone is waiting there to pounce before I get there. Grrrrr! I need to head to N. Mexico!!

LBloom: I don't know how I've missed your views on this if as you said, that you have stated them in the past. I'm sorry I didn't know how you feel. What you have written so eloquently, is so very much more important, vital and relevant to this argument than all of the ugly right-wing propaganda that we've read so often here. I really appreciate your taking the time to post it again. I completely respect your views and your feelings and I do very much agree that what doesn't kill you can definitely make you stronger. I also believe that we learn more from our mistakes than from our successes. But I also believe that it is for every man and woman to learn these life lessons in their own time. I do not feel that it is our place to take on the responsibility of telling others whether they should choose to have a child or abort a child based on our own personal views. Unfortunately as you said, you haven't known women who have chosen to have an abortion so you haven't been exposed to women who felt that they must make that choice and hear their reasoning or their stories afterwards. I have. I have known many women who have made that choice. Believe me, their stories are just as compelling as are those of the women who chose to have children and either keep them or give them up for adoption. But if you are not privy to those stories, you couldn't know that. I have known women who were forced to have a child, out of wedlock, and whose lives were changed - in a very bad way - during the process. I have known women who gave children up for adoption who have ached and lived with the lifelong pain of having their baby be raised by strangers, and sometimes even learning of their child's subsequent abuse by unhealthy suggogate parents. Oh sure, you can say that those mothers learned something, as did the vicitimized children, but how can you condemn people to that kind of painful lesson just because you think it will one day be good for them? I honestly do understand what you've said and I agree with practically everything you believe, but with the exception of the plan to make the choice in all cases be made by other people instead of the women actually facing the extremely, extremely important decision.

luluc: You are so totally right on! The point is whether or not we allow women to make this incredibly personal decision, whether we believe that women are the only ones who can have all the knowledge of whether it is the right thing to do, or whether a segment of the population should tell ALL women what they MUST do. It is imperative that women be able to make the decision for themselves and not be commanded to do what other people have decided is right.

No worries, Susan. I think that rant and rave is about spent. We've pretty much all agreed that it's hard not to get personal when the source of the topic is so very personal - and has to do with our very belief system.

Oh yes, there are many people who are pro-choice who are Christian. But my remarks were about right wing Christians - the very, very vocal folks who demand that abortion be made illegal. When I read some of the stuff that is cited here that is actually put out by Christian Right Wing sources, and then we're told that being Christian has nothing to do with their beliefs on the topic, I am confused. I can't help but wonder why people are denying that their church had a big influence on their beliefs. Are you personally saying that your church has little to do with how you feel about the laws allowing women to choose? Or are you just saying that there are many sources that make up your beliefs on the subject? I am not intending to challenge you, LBloom, I am honestly curious what those sources have been, if that is the case. I am certainly not the most worldly person here, but it has been my experience that people who are angry enough to insist that women's right to choose should be taken away are the same people who usually state that being a Christian is the single most important thing in their lives - more important in fact, than anything else. That doesn't necessarily make them right wing, but they are often pretty extreme in their beliefs on all the topics that the right wing endorses. This isn't the first topic where people have denied that their church has influenced them. I don't understand that. My church has definitely influenced me on the topic. We believe in God, but we believe in people too. We believe that people can make mistakes, even sin, but that they can be forgiven - and not just forgiven by God. We believe that living breathing human beings and their relationships with each other and their interaction in the community are of utmost importance. We do not presume to tell each other how to lead our spiritual lives or even what to believe, we merely support each other in times of need. We believe that not judging each other and loving and forgiving each other is how Jesus wants us to conduct our lives. It's pretty simple, really.

LBloom: You are very correct! I remember times when anti-choice participants felt like lone rangers here. The debate does seem to ebb and flow in other ways too. We all seem to enjoy supporting anyone who has a viewpoint that is similar to our own. And we all seem to feel persecuted when someone with an opposing viewpoint challenges us. Guess it's to be expected. This has been a very interesting thread to follow. There quite honestly have been good arguments from both sides. I believe it has served to help us all think a little more about what's going on around the country on this topic. Personally it's been my experience to observe that the more vocal the Christian right wing has become about making abortion illegal, the more hysterical we have become over the years, when defending our beliefs. Now I know some people who are anti-choice say that their position on this topic has "nothing" to do with their Christian faith, but I have a very difficult time accepting that. We did not grow up making up our own minds and forming our own belief systems without influences somewhere along the line. There is a history of how the various churches around the globe have defined their stance on abortion. The arguments here against a woman's right to choose do parrot those churches edicts from the pulpit. I guess it could be a coincidence, but it doesn't seem likely. So when people say that their beliefs on banning a woman's right to choose have nothing to do with their religious faith, I not only wonder how we are expected to buy it, but more importantly I wonder why they want to separate their beliefs about abortion and their religious beliefs. I'm sure there must be a good reason but I just don't get it. :confused2:

Yay! Thanks, snuffy!

Oh dang it - I think I really dated myself calling them bathing suits instead of swimsuits! I'll never learn!

I've found that if I am quick on the draw, I can find phenominal deals even at the stores at the malls, like Macy's, Dillard's and Nordstrom. I found a really beautiful top (regular size medium!!!!) at Dillard's on Saturday. It was made out of real silk with really pretty buttons, a name brand at regularly $79 and I got it for $19. The problem with buying at those places is that you have to be there when things get knocked down the second or third time and be willing to paw through tons of stuff to find one great deal. I usually just don't have that kind of time or stamina and I'd rather go to Target or Wal-Mart. There you can just run in, go through the stuff very quickly and find really cute things. Wal-Mart and Target have the cutest bathing suits at great prices too! In the department stores, you can spend $80 on a swimsuit!! NO WAY. I also find their shoes at Target to be great. I saw an awesome pair of name brand, in season, shoes last year - open toed, slings, with a low heel for $68 at Dillard's and a few days later I found practically the identical shoe at Target for $12! I bought them and checked out the ones at Dillards again while I was wearing the Target ones, and I swear you could never tell them apart if it weren't for the lining. They do some fantastic knock offs. And don't you love to shop at Target for practically everything? I got two outdoor wicker-look chairs for my porch that were on sale there and everywhere else chairs like them were more than twice as much! And I even like the Target ones better than the expensive ones! Congratulations on your jobs, Laurend!! And girl, you're setting the world on fire with your weight loss! Fantastic~~!!

Well I didn't hear that Syesha comment. It definitely has some questionable connotations but I doubt if that's how she meant it on national television. *wink, wink, nod, nod* Honestly I'd hate to have to give a spontaneous interview - no telling what I'd say! But then I have a sneaking suspicion that things are more rehearsed (including the Ryan v. Simon exchanges), than we are expected to believe. The big question is: who's going home this week? Did anyone see Michael Johns on Leno last week? We tvo'ed it, but I haven't seen it yet. Surely it's gonna be Syesha or Kristie... but then, we were shocked last week, weren't we!

Actually Wheetsin I did not know that there was a policy in place that prohibits name calling. That's a good policy. Is there a policy against claiming that someone is calling you a name, when in fact they haven't? Oh pooh, I'm nitpicking now. Ignore me. I am still wanting to be on a peace for progress mission. Wish there was a smiley face with a halo...

Yes, TommyO I think that you have mastered the art of name-calling here. First you have to qualify everything you say with a claim that you are not being mean. Then it is acceptible to say just about anything if you lean to the right. And if you are a right-leaning poster, you can accuse everyone else of being horrible people, especially if they are pro-choice or anti-capital punishment or especially if you are against the war in Iraq. But hey wait a minute, I don't want to give the impression that I am being negative or hateful in any way. I honestly just wanted to make those observations in case you or anyone else becomes wary of posting because you've seen what happens. By observing the vocal minority here, I'm pretty sure there's safety in numbers, so I think it is good for us to give each other support when we can and that's what I'm trying to do. :w00t: I have been the lone ranger at this thread from time to time. And I have gotten the wind knocked out of my sails more than once. I want everyone who wants to post at this thread to feel free to do so. That's why I think it's good to apologize when we step on someone's toes. Too much of the time I never even know that I have stepped on someone's toes when I get called down. :biggrin: You keep up the good work, Tommy. I have appreciated your insight on many occasions!

newhope: Thanks for your really good, well thought out post!

Who me, sarcastic? :confused: We can sing anyway, Bloom. It'd give me a chance to stroll down church camp memory lane. Besides, I got really tired of all the negative-speak that went on here last week. Singing Kum-ba-ya is much more soothing to the soul. Hydrogen technology, Jack! What a concept! snuffy: I'm always on your team. But since the DH no longer works in defense contracting, I don't have to vote for war anymore.

travelgirl: You're right. Case in point: I don't vote. Yeah every season must have its' Clay Aiken, so to speak. Those producers are clever folk.

Thanks LBloom! I hope you knew the first part of that post was strictly tongue in cheek. Snuffy: Isn't America the single worst polluter in the world? My guess is that if we cut back, it actually would make a difference. And hey, wait a minute... if the by-product of nuclear power is something we can use to make weapons that will not only kill people but make the environment lousy with radioactive material that keeps on giving, how is that a bad thing? Oh wait a minute, a peace loving person just might be elected next November. That may cut down on the need for more bigger, badder weapons in the near term, ya think?

Allison that's a good theory and probably spot on. Btw, I heard today that Daughtry is getting sued because his latest hit sounds like a song by a different band. I liked Taylor Hicks because of his personality. I thought it was cool that someone different won. I heard the other night on Larry King that he's had one record that bombed and that he lost his label and has passed on into oblivion. And you're right georgia g, his voice wasn't actually that great. So I guess I shouldn't root for the underdog or the one who isn't mainstream. Afterall, an American Idol should be a very talented person who can cut a mean CD!

Not only am I shocked, I am thoroughly p***$$d off!!!!!!!! I was hoping that Michael Johns would start taking names and kicking a$$! And that he would actually win the thing and I could see him more and more often. Ryan Secrest doesn't usually make me mad, but this time he did and he also looked downright stupid for saying that. And his question to Simon if Simon thinks they got it right this time? And Simon looked at what seemed to be Carly, and said, yes I think they've finally got it. Was that just to rile us up too? Does anybody besides me think that they are enjoying this unheaval and controversy? Like they say, "...makes for good TV!" AAAAARRRRRGGGGGHHHH!!!! Everybody ought to hold out and not vote this week just to teach them a lesson. But of course we won't. People will vote even more than usual and make it an extremely profitable week. I like David Cook, but Michael Johns is much more fascinating. If David A. wins, there's no justice in this world.

Fossil fuels produce waste. Nuclear plants produce waste. What's the answer? Build power plants on the moon and import it. Then when that proves to not take care of business, mine the moon for stuff we can burn to produce energy. Or, let's all move to Al Gore's place. He has room and burns enough energy to warm all of us and incubate our eggs. I must say that this has been a great discussion. I don't mean to make light - oh yes, I guess I do. P.S. DH and I both drive whopping SUVs. We'll trade them in on tiny little fuel efficient autos when you take all the semi-tractor trailer rigs off the road. Until then, we need some manner of protection when they try to run us over.

MissyGordon: That's a good point about the kids vs. the adults and who they're familiar with. But I was talking about the fact that Mylie and Billy are well aware of each other and in that way it seemed a little "too" cute for me. I'm not easily amused, I guess. On the other hand, it's a good thing they don't depend on me for funny or meaningful dialogue on TV shows. I'm sure I'd write something even less entertaining.

Nukechick: I know the cost advantages of nuclear power, but do you think we should be afraid of expanding the number of nuclear power plants in the U.S.? Who can forget Cherynoble? You obviously believe that we have learned from our past mistakes and that we are prepared to keep catastropic accidents from happening, right?