BJean

That's cool.

Thanks for the permission, Trell. For the record, I was responding to the tone of your entire post - not just one word that I used when defending my beliefs. I'm not attacking you, nor have I meant to sound as if I am attacking you for anything you've posted. I was just disagreeing and I meant for it to be a respectful disagreement. It actually had much more to do with my own feelings than your post. In fact on the positive side, I was glad that your post gave me the opportunity to state what I think. I do tend to sound harsh when I do not feel harshly at all. I apologize if you thought I had hard feelings toward you because I sure do not. Just because we disagree on an issue, even this very important issue, does not mean that we can't have respect for each other and in fact, enjoy each others posts on other threads. Doncha think? :thumbup:

Great posts you all! I'm very impressed. One thing that I'd like to add to what salsa said is that I don't think we've gone goofy for wanting to look our best, so I don't think we need a shrink for that. However we might want to consider seeing a shrink when we don't give a darn how we look. Often that's a self-esteem issue that we have a very hard time understanding on our own. I know that to be true because I deal with it even after LB. I am at least fighting it now, which is a big improvement over how I've thought about myself for the past 20 years. Btw, we just celebrated our 35th wedding anniversary. I mentioned to my DH that I'd love to get rid of the crepy neck and sagging jowls and he said, what about that string thing, does that work? So I know he'd like to see me look younger too. Hmmm as Desi might say, Lucy you got some serious thinkin' to do.

I've been off-line for most of this discussion, Thank God! This hoax thing is one of the most ridiculous discussions I've ever read. Which brings up the reason for my posting now. Trell said that I was only trying to stir up strife. I was absolutely not trying to cause problems. I was only responding to a comment or comments that I believed questioned my position on this issue. I was defending my argument. You have every right to do the same. The strife that has been caused, again, was due to a poster's reference to a link that was all about some hoax that was probablyl thunk up by a group of frat boys that were tired of putting up with their girlfriends' raging hormones at that time of the month. I prefer to think that is what happened rather than another obvious possibility and that is that the extremeist anti-abortion folks invented it to get people ranting and raving about the topic of abortion. Which, btw, also brings up someone's remarks about my calling anti-abortion people "anti-choice." The reason I refer to those people as anti-choice is because they have for years referred to pro-choice people as "pro-abortion." Fair is fair, right? Another item that bothered me was where it was stated, again, that women already have a choice... that being simply to choose to refrain from having sex. I would be one of the happiest people on the planet if women were always in charge of their bodies. Unfortunately much of the time they are not and there are dozens of reasons why women have sex and become impregnated without their consent. Those reasons why women have sex without choosing to and the subsequent impregnations caused without their consent are some of the reasons why this issue is so complicated and why passing a law that makes the choice of abortion illegal will never work.

Karey: You've been busy all your life doing things for others. Raising your children, looking after your husband's needs, your philanthropic missions, etc. Now you've turned 53 and you're realizing that life is rushing by at an unbelievable clip and you don't have a whole lot of time life to be well, HOT and SEXY and the exciting beautiful woman that you've always wanted to be. When's it going to happen if not now? You've worked very hard at losing weight. You've had some cosmetic procedures done and you see what some work can do for you. It feels good to take the bull by the horns and do some things that make you feel and look younger and more beautiful. And yes, beauty is skin deep and we know it, but that doesn't mean we should be happy with this aging process. It can be selfish to fight it if the family sacrifices for your choices, but you have sacrificed for them for years. It is your turn. I am not suggesting that you pursue plastic surgery until you turn into catwoman or Michael Jackson, but a nip and tuck here and there and a little skin rejuvenation isn't being obsessive. My suggestion is that you get a plan in place for what you feel you need. Focus on doing those things and continue to look at before and after pix. Have a goal date set for when those things will be accomplished, including the healing process. Then work toward that goal and when you reach it, get on with your life. Plan what you're going to do when those things are done. Stick with the before and after plan. It is a good thing to take care of yourself and to have pride in your appearance. When you've gained a lot of weight over the years, your looks have taken a back seat to everything else. You've probably spent a lot of time avoiding mirrors and cameras. Well now that you've lost weight and your kids are grown, get back into enjoying being YOU! You don't have to be the most voluptuous woman on the planet, just a woman who is busy enjoying her life to the fullest extent. Make a plan. Go over the plan with your mate and get his support. And in fairness to him and yourself, stick to that plan and then go forward without so much thought devoted to your appearance. Just enjoy the fruits of your labor and seduce your man on a regular basis as a reward for his support. It'll be great!!

Trell who exactly do you know that goes out and gets pregnant on a regular basis, uses no birth control and gets serial abortions? If you know someone like that, you should give serious thought to helping her. There's a good chance she doesn't even know what causes pregnancy. Otherwise I fear that you're citing propaganda that the very biased anti-choice likes to toss about to make people think that most women who get abortions are promiscuous ignorant whores. That is just not the truth. I won't say that it doesn't or has never happened, but most women do not use abortion for their everyday birth control method and that is a very heartless and unfounded insinutation directed at all women who have had to have an abortion. Most women who find themselves in the position of having to make a choice when they become pregnant against their wishes, are women like you and me. You get to make your choice, I get to make mine. Your situation is probably very different from mine. It can be an extremely complex issue and one that we should not be deciding for each other.

It is really sad that some folks believe that pro-choice people have absolutely no value system and that they will make obscene decisions, given the chance. That cited garbage on the 'net is an effort to get anti-choice people to believe that very thing. Many pro-choice people are the most caring and responsible people that walk the face of the earth. There is so much negative propaganda on the 'net and in fact everywhere that it is difficult for anti-choice people to understand that we are your mothers, sisters, brothers, teachers, pastors, grandmothers, dentists, doctors, and on and on. Don't make us out to be something we absolutely are not. By the same token, we will do our best not to clump you into one greasy ball of gun-totin', ultra right wing nuts. Um-kay?

Green, you are spot on! I wasn't even going to address this latest gadget post showing another offensive link or the subsequent post that inferred that pro-choice people would be interested in or condone that "artist's" revolting effort to get her 15 minutes of fame. It would be like saying that Mapplethorpe's use of use of an image of Christ juxtaposed next to a penis in one of his works of art would make Christians happy.

I know too many people who never, ever hit their children and their children are better behaved than the ones whose parents think it's fine to spank them. If all parents rationed spanks and only used them under very controlled conditions (their own control mostly) spanking would not generate the debate that it always does, like it has here. But a calm and controlled parent conducting a spanking is very often not the case. We've all observed parents who lash out in anger or fear and grab a child up and whack them on the butt while they're screaming at them. Sure, it gets the kids attention and makes an impression - sometimes a long-lasting impression! But that's not the best way to actually teach a child. If you're wanting your child to learn about the dangers of running into the street or the unacceptibility of throwing a fit in a store, hitting them isn't the best teaching tool. It's simply the quickest way to shut them down. And if you're hoping that your child grows up to have a kind and gentle soul, spanking them is not the way to encourage that. It is a way to teach them that hitting is acceptible.

We need to learn how to, in a very sexy way, look up and ask breathlessly, more of this? And then follow up with "probing" questions after you change up your pressure and alternate your forms of licking, sucking, etc. What The Watchers sez is totally true: everybody doesn't like it exactly the same as everyone else.

Wheetsin I thought I had caught on another thread that you're preggo! That's fabulous! I am thrilled for you. I hope everything goes very well for you and your DH. My DD was faced with the decision of whether to have those tests. She's a real worrier - worse than I am. After doing tons of research and talking to her doctors, she opted to skip them. The reason was primarily because of the high liklihood of false positives and that lots of additional testing would be needed if they got any kind of positive reading. So a person might go through the additional testing only to find that it was a false positive and the additional testing is more risky than the original tests themselves. Anyway it is definitely something that every woman has to decide for herself. Only you knows what you'll be comfortable with and what you'd do if the tests indicated something dreadfully wrong. Things used to be so simple. We now have all these tests and knowledge that we didn't used to have to deal with. I guess they're a good thing, but it sure was simple to just get preggo, heat up the oven and 9 months later have a baby the easy way - with drugs. :-) Kidding, of course. At any rate, I will be thinking of you often and wishing you an uneventful pregnancy with an easy delivery and a perfectly wonderful baby! P.S. I've had kids and I'm definitely pro-choice. I think it may well be BECAUSE I've had children that I know for sure that banning abortion is not the correct thing for our country. Children are about the most important thing in the world.

Ditto: what her fellow Cannuck said.

karey! That sounds really wonderful. I'm so glad the trip turned out well. It sounds even better than you expected. I'll bet kayaking isn't as hard on those healing muscles than if you were in an actual row boat. Since your lower body is encased it forces you to really use your upper body. But it could be the opposite - I've never been kayaking. I always thought I'd be too claustrophobic to be confined in that way, but if you're not in white water it probably doesn't feel as scary. I'm jealous. I'd love to be able to have a pool party and actually wear a swimsuit in front of people. I always just let everybody else swim and I worry with the food and drinks, towels, etc. And I melt from the heat. I've lost a little more weight, finally, and I am getting very encouraged again. My breakthrough was learning that I can use a recumbent bike even though my knees are so bad. I'm also doing upper body weights and I think that is what is doing the trick. My exercize physiologist says that even if you can't do a full free weight work out, doing the upper body will build up enough lean muscle that you'll definitely burn more calories. I was hesitant initially because I didn't realize that you can do your upper body without standing. I've even started sitting on an exercise ball when I do some of the exercises which is supposed to help your inner core become centered. Have you thought about adding upper body exercise with weights? Walking helps a lot when you're not doing anything, but when you've been so used to a good exercise routine, it doesn't seem to actually burn much. If you do just your upper body, you shouldn't be doing any damage to your abdomen. The wedding plans must be getting exciting... it's next month, right? What kind of cake have you ordered? Do you ever watch the ACE of CAKES on TV? Some of the ones you see in the background when he's sitting and talking are fabulous. Too big for many weddings, but very cool.

Oh, okay. I thought you thought I was making that claim. :tt1: Just want to add that I completely understand what you've said about killing a person and all that. You've stated your case perfectly. I enjoy reading your posts too. I wish we were in agreement on this topic but perhaps we'll meet up on another thread and be right on target with each others viewpoints! Could happen. :tt2:

I didn't use the argument, "it's not fair" although the law, in it's infinite wisdom (ha), does try to be fair in all things. And it is definitely subjective in many things. As I said, I would not want to live in a world where, as in China, the government tries to control the very soul of its' citizens.

Oh but we can argue religions and feelings and beliefs. That's what we're doing here. It is hard for me to believe or understand how people can be unsure of their stance on other killings but absolutely firm on this one, particularly if as some have said, a life is a life, period. A woman cannot be forced to have a baby and she cannot be forced to have an abortion or not to have an abortion. That is, unless you take her into custody and put her on a 24 hour watch for nine months. I have no doubt that some people feel passionate enough about this issue that they would be willing to have the government imprison a woman who has said that she wants an abortion and put her on a 24 hour watch for the entire nine months. I know one thing and that is that I would hate to live in a country like that.

I thought exactly the same thing about Michael Johns last night as I looked over the remaining contestants. Disappointing! Poor Brooke has been broken I'm afraid. She came into this so strong and with a definite personality and style. Now she seems to be just fluttering and defensive. It's a real shame. Especially because I really like the tone of her voice and the style she started with. Carly's expressions really drove me crazy in the beginning, but either I'm getting used to her or she's calmed them down a little. When she wears something complimentary and sings something you can tell she likes, I think she's pretty awesome now. I definitely think she has more strength than Jason Castro or David A. I do like Jason Castro a lot, but I don't think he's very strong. If he can just stick to his own thing, he's great. But doing anything that crosses over makes him seem weak to me. And I get it about David Cook's mannerisms. Sure take some getting used to. But on several of his best songs, I can forgive him almost anything.

tapshoes! Great post! It brought back fond memories of when my kids said I gave them the "stink eye"! Btw, I loved my tapshoes!

I never have said that a fertilized egg is not life. Of course it is life. It just isn't a human being in the same sense that a fully developed person is. Obviously the scientific definition is debatable, and so too is the matter of choice. I believe that is why theological beliefs come into play here. People choose based on their beliefs, not science. Even if the Supreme Court made a different ruling, I believe that people will still believe what they believe. That's why outlawing abortion will not stop abortions. That is also why the decision should not be within the framework of American jurisprudence. If you want to speak to the matter of us kiling in our society, we're killing a human being when we put a convicted criminal to death. We put down dogs and cats and other living creatures when they are in pain. We kill people when we go to war. We believe that it is all right for a police officer to kill another human being in the line of duty. You talk about killing, yeah we do that all right, and in spades. When a woman has been violated and inseminated against her wishes, she has the right to protect herself from that violation, just as society has the right to defend itself against all manner of criminal acts. I appreciate your posts too Jennie, and the way you presented your thoughts. The fact of the matter is, this is one of those topics where there is little chance that we will be able to sway each other's opinions. But that's all right. It is good that we are able to state our opinions and our beliefs, no matter what they are or how different they are from others. I'm like luluc: I will never budge from my principles on this issue. I would be surprised if the opposing side would.

OMG, you guys are going to ruin me! I remember Friendly's all too well, laurend!

Ooooh, good job, Gh0st!

Darlin' as I've said, a clump of cells does not an individual make. You can't govern a person until they're a person. They can't speak for themselves for a very good reason. That's the way God made us. If he wanted babies to be able to have a voice when they're a fertilized egg, He'd have given them voices. He made it so that they must rely on mother, and mother nature. Not goverment, right or left.

kat you're right on with the shakes. I like them really thick, eaten with a spoon. But if you need to use a straw or if you have those damn sores, adding more milk is better. A couple of big spoonsful of very rich (the best you can buy, why waste yourself on the cheap stuff?) ice cream and then fill the glass or blender with whole milk halfway up to where the ice cream stops. Bananas are a little too rich for me, but they're a great source of potassium and a banana shake does taste good. If you need some roughage, you can add any of those over-the-counter things like Metamucil (which I find hard to use without the milkshake). Whey protein mixes in very well and sure helps beef up the protein intake without little effort. If you have a hankerin' for chocolate, you can make it double chocolate (good zinc source, doncha know - or is it magnesium?) by adding Hershey's syrup to chocolate ice cream. I never waste my calories on low-cal ice cream or anything that isn't natural. Too many additives. Adele's makes a really nice organic ice cream and I really like Horizon organically produced milk. As I said, I'm not exactly a gourmet - I just know what's good! And unfortunately (or in your case fortunately) what can pack on the pounds quickly! Did I mention fresh fruit shakes? Just about any fruit (fresh or frozen) mixed into a shake is delightful. If it were me, I'd go for those totally nutritious blueberries! :crying:

Let's say there is a sperm that swims up and enters a women's egg. If you took that clump of cells out of the woman, there is no way that it would continue to grow or even exist as life in any form - at least not without science and test tubes. It would die a natural death and for some, a medical abortion at early stages is nothing more than an intervention step in a process, much like a morning after pill. There are many, many cases where a sperm has fertilized an egg and yet those clumps of cells never produce a baby. There are huge numbers of spontaneous abortions that happen every day. We don't mourn that loss of cells as "deaths". We may mourn the fact that we are not pregnant, but there was never a baby, and so we don't have a funeral or an investigation about the "death" of a clump of cells. Some women want more than anything to be pregnant and to bear a child. Some people believe that all life is sacred and that life in any form should be preserved. That's fair. However there are some women who cannot bear a child, for a miriad of reasons, and yet have had a fertilized egg implant itself in her uterus and begin the process. Those women have the right and deserve to have the right to not grow that clump of cells into a baby. For me, that decision is the ultimate personal decision. It has no bearing on the rest of the world. It is her decision and hers alone. She may choose to confide in her mate or her clergy or family, but she is ultimately the one who has to bear the burden of this physical reality and she's the only one who is physically at risk. Therefore it is not fair for outsiders to make the decision whether or not a woman should risk her life to have a child. When there is absolutely no risk to women to have children, and when the government takes on the responsibility for all the unwanted children, then we can revisit this issue and I will reassess my position on the subject. Until then, I will continue to disagree with anyone who moves to pass a law requiring all women who have been impregnated to mature some clumps of cells into living, breathing, human beings. Of course all of this is just IMHO! :crying:

Oh great, I'm glad to see you've posted, green! Although I am very sorry to hear that you're having such a rough time. But we knew it wouldn't be a walk in the park, dang it. My mom became very sick when she got radiation, so I'm glad you're taking preemtive action!! I hope you know how much we all think of you and that we're thinking of you and wishing you well every, every day!!! Btw, have you tried milkshakes? They are very high in calorie and they can be soothing. Especially the handmade ones. I'm pretty much an expert in this area. It was about the only thing my mom would let me make for her when she was feeling especially crappy. Just a thought...