BJean

froggie that's hilarious! I hadn't ever thought of it that way since I've seen the commercial and it was for children. Well anyway, now if someone asks you, all you have to do is pop up and say "Hiya kids....." :thumbdown::biggrin::wink_smile:

Hi sweetie. I was pretty sure you had been a very sick puppy after that last round of chemo and the rest of your radiation. Thank goodness that's behind you! I think about you every day. I miss you too. Very, very much. I've been away from the office/computer and only jump on periodically for a few minutes to try to slay some dragons. HA! This whole LBT rants and raves things has become very theraputic for me. I prefer participating on these threads than obsessing about my weight these days. Hope you'll feel like coming back into the fold full time because we sure do need your input. Has anyone told you lately that you're brilliant? Well remember how often people told you that at LBT? You gotta miss that!

MrsFlipFlops: To answer your question: No, just because Bush is a born again Christian is not the reason I feel that he is shoving it in my face or down my throat. It is being shoved down my throat and is in my face because of the way he has gone about running this country, with his Christian Coalition having a presence at his side in the White House. I even went so far as to enumerate some of the things I am uncomfortable with that he's done which have made it feel like his religious beliefs are in my face. There is supposed to be separation of Church and State, but with him that has absolutely not been the case. Furthermore, I was raised in the Methodist Chruch, was a born again Southern Baptist and raised my children in the Catholic Church. I have had best friends who were B'Hai (sp) and close family who are Presbyterian and Mormon. I certainly have nothing against Christians or most other religions. But I do believe that it is extremely inappropriate for our president to make decisions based not upon the common good, but based on his own personal religious beliefs. As a Christian you can see nothing wrong with him having a Christian Coalition sitting at his side, advising him. I understand that. And I also understand that we are taught to "witness" for God and Jesus and for some of us that means going from door to door. But trust me, if we had a president who was a practicing Jew, for instance, and he assembled a group of very outspoken Jewish Rabbis who helped him make decisions, including decisions regarding our Middle East policies and our relationship with Israel, you might find it a bit uncomfortable. When John F. Kennedy ran for office, there was a large faction of Christian Americans who were actually worried about the Catholic Church working through him to dominate the world. (At one point the Pope actually said that it was the goal of the Catholic Church - to be the only religion in the world.) We really need to get smarter in this country about why the separation of church and state is so vitally important. If it takes an atheist explaining it to us so that we can understand why, then I'll vote for an atheist.

elenation: What do you like about Colin Powell?

Thanks a lot froggi! Does anyone ever ask you to plunk your magic twanger? In the 50's, there was a shoe commercial for Buster Brown shoes. Once the magic twanger was plunked, a little frog jumped up and said, "Hiya kids, Hiya, Hiya, Hiya." Hmmmm, loses something in the translation. :biggrin:

I am humbled by your response, Watcher. I hope I really do get it. God I can be stupid sometimes. And it has taken me a long time to figure out why black people are angry and why white people fear blacks so much. You know the one good thing that has come of the Dubya presidency is that everything that has been wrong in America has become even more obvious. It's pretty hard for us to continue to stick our heads in the sand and claim that we're fair, unbiased and good people when we elect someone like him. We've been all about greed. We decided a long time ago that welfare was invented for black people. We resent black people because we think they're all on the dole and that we're paying for their $500 tennis shoes. We think that black people are committing all the crime in America. We think that all a black person has to do is to work hard and they'll become Oprah or Barack. How ignorant can we be to allow discrimination against black people to continue and pretend that we had nothing to do with allowing it to continue? Everytime we say we don't understand why black people are still angry today, we are allowing it to continue.

I can't remember which poster mentioned it, but they said that no one is getting atheism or religion crammed down their throats. I disagree. No one seems to be getting atheism shoved down their throats in this country, but we are definitely getting fundamentalist christianity shoved down our throats! And in especially horrible ways. It is being shoved down our throats by our politicians in Washington. It is being shoved down our throats by our "christian" president when he takes us into a horrible, agressive war and by his decision not to help our military when they come home even after they give up security, life and limb to fight in this unholy war he waged. We are getting it shoved down our throats every day in so many ways. That is why so many people in America are feeling disenfranchised by our own government. That is why our country is so terribly divided and why this election is so vitally important to our future. Barak Obama is a good man. He is very intelligent and although I do not doubt that he enjoys the headiness of running for president, I believe that he has high ideals and ambitious goals for uniting our people and even our world. He is intelligent enough to know what needs to be done to correct the terrible wrongs that are commited so often by our congress. He knows how we have been sold down the river by greed and how we are taken advantage of by unscrupulous lobbyists. My fear, and it is a horrible gut-wrenching cold sweat fear, is that Obama will suffer the same fate that every other truly outstanding and good man has suffered in this country before him. The thing that is so terribly disappointing for me, as an American, is that the extreme right wing nut jobs get away with murder in this country and the good people just take it and shuffle along trying to pretend it didn't happen. We better stop arguing about religion and start working toward improving our country and our world. We sure can't do it if we allow people like George Bush and Dick Cheney run us into the ground.

What an intresting thread. I read all the posts and if I am not mistaken, Watcher was not the person who first brought up slavery. It seemed to be an assumption on the part of others that slavery is what is making Watcher angry and feeling that he can't trust white Americans. Well, I'm not a black man or even a black woman. I do not feel that I am qualified to say how a black person in America should feel about living in America. I have not been discriminated against for being black. I may have witnessed discrimination (and I certainly have) but I have never felt what it is like to be discriminated against just because my skin color is dark. I have been discriminated against because I am a woman (in the work force, a lot). I have been discrminated against because I am white - by 3 black girls on the streets of Richmond. Although I couldn't understand their anger at me - since I felt at the time that I was not a racial bigot - I understand now that as black girls in the south, they had felt what it was like to be treated poorly just because of their skin color. I understand why they resented someone who was acceptible just because they were white. The one thing that I liked that Jesse Jackson started was the slogan, "I'm black and I'm proud." It was a strong message for black America and if we elect Barack Obama it will be another strong message for black Americans. It will also be a very powerful message to white Americans who have lived the stereotypical white life and who have distrusted black people and who have ignorant ideas about what skin color can tell you about a person. Skin color alone can't tell you whether a person is good or bad. Americans have pre-judged people based on the color of their skin for hundreds of years and many continue to believe that skin color is important in one way or another. Until we can have more interpersonal racial relationships and until we give up our ignorant beliefs about race, we will have racial discrmination in this country. That has to stop and we all need to understand that change begins with us. That's one reason why a forum like this is a good thing. Both black and white participants can learn and change the way they think about skin color. Thank goodness for communication and education! I am an Obama supporter. I do not want to see Hillary as his running mate. But that has nothing to do with her sex. I trust Hillary about as much as I trust McCain and that is not at all. Both of them have sold out to get the presidency. Neither of them will affect a change in the policies that are harming America so much. P.S. The garbage about Obama being Muslim is only the tip of the iceberg when it comes to the number of outright lies that have been posted on the 'net about him. I am sure that the lies about Obama will only get worse the closer we get to the general election. And unless you want to continue with the Bush policies about the war, the environment, immigration, insurance and all the rest, you need to become knowledgeable about the real Obama and about the changes he wants to help us make. And if you want to have the possibility of a united, strong America again, you better be darned sure that you get out and vote. Remember what happened in 2000 and 2004! We need an enormous landslide so that none of their shenanigans will keep the best man for the job from being elected.

I'm very impressed with this discussion. Thanks to all of you have been willing to participate and help to enlighten us on some of the actions of the ACLU. It is very frustrating to listen to (and read) people rant and rave about how horrible it is that the ACLU "supports" an organization like NAMBLA. Then they go on to denounce every speck of work that the ACLU has ever done and make outrageous remarks about anyone who would support the ACLU. It is also amazing to realize how many people are sucked in by the right wing pundits who are leading the charge against the ACLU and other organizations because they use guilt to make people feel unchristian and unpatriotic if they do not embrace their views. I am sick to death of how the right wing has taken Americans by the throat and declared that if they don't vote for a war veteran (for instance) and a person who is a fundamentalist Christian, we are bad people and unpatriotic and should be run out of this country. We've got to stop all this extremism and intolerance and use our heads instead of letting a few wackos use our heads for their own interests.

NAMBLA, huh? Doesn't sound good, does it? Well the ACLU isn't about defending man/boy relationships. ACLU is about defending the Constitution. Sometimes when you disagree with the actions of a person or group you can be blind to the core issue that the ACLU is involved in. If we didn't have a group like the ACLU, you wouldn't like what the country would become. We need a watchdog group so that our emotional biases don't cause us to make decisions that will ultimately abridge our rights. Dig deep. Figure out the core issues of their cases. It might surprise you to learn that they do a very important job for this country.

Boo Boo Kitty: Of course horrible child abuse is not the same as a well thought out, planned swat on the backside. But a swat on the backside is also not usually what is administered as a spanking. Everyone likes to think that's all they do, but you know what they say... denial ain't just a river in Egypt. I've been very vocal about spanking being a poor way to discipine children. But I am not accusing you of abuse or even harsh spanking. In fact, I'm not accusing anyone of anything. I just want people to know that if they work really hard at learning alternatives to spanking, they can very successfully discipline their children without using corporal punishment. I have no desire to storm into your house and point an accusing finger at you for the way you discipline your daughter. I have no desire to pass a law that parents cannot choose their own form of discipline for their children. I do, however, wish that parents in the U.S. were better educated about alternative ways to discipline and teach their children. I do wish we had some mandatory parenting classes before we take charge of the children we bring into this world. As for you, it sounds like you've worked very hard at getting help in determining the best way to handle your daughter. I respect you for that. Parenting a child with those problems is extremely challenging, to be sure.

Whoo Hoo!!!! Finally a voice of reason!!! The ACLU is one of the most maligned and misunderstood organizations on the planet. Or at least in the U.S.A. People just don't listen, read and pay attention to what the ACLU is really all about. The ultra right wing wants us all to believe that the ACLU supports everything they do not believe in. And so they post their lies and half-truths on the internet. They complain about the ACLU ad nausem to their friends. Everyone thinks if they say something inflammatory about the ACLU it will make them more popular. Seriously. Right? You darned betcha. Ignorance is not bliss. People should get down on their knees and thank God for the ACLU. If it weren't for their tireless efforts, our constitutional rights would be abridged at every turn.

Thank God for the law that will allow abortion throughout pregnancy. However don't misunderstand, the point is that the law as it is in this country, is not written to encourage late term abortion or even early abortion. The point is that it is unconstitutional for the government to discriminate against women by intervening in their private medical decisions. Our government has no right to tell women that they must abort or that they must not abort babies. Whether or not you believe that any woman who chooses to have an abortion is a murderer, YOUR beliefs have no bearing on the rights of all women or the constitutionality of the law as it relates to this question. Banning women's right to choose is wrong and the only correct answer is for every woman to be able to make her own medical decisions, whether it has to do with pregnancies or any other medical treatment she seeks.

gadget, I am glad that you shared your stories of what caused your epiphany and helped you form your beliefs on this issue. I think you are just as entitled to your beliefs and to act on your epiphany as I am. My epiphany was far different from yours. I grew up when abortion was still illegal. I saw two members of my highschool cheerleading team deal with pregnancies very differently. I witnessed first-hand the heartache and the aftermath of their polar opposite decisions. Then later I became friends with a young female attorney who shared her very personal, heartbreaking story with me. And again when a friend of a good friend of mine had to deal with the shock, shame and terror of an unwanted pregnancy at the hands of her rapist. And again after abortion became legal and my best friend's daughter became pregnant after her college boyfriend football player forced himself on her when he had been drinking. Because she was able to get a safe, quick, legal abortion, she was able to disengage herself from that abusive relationship, get her degree and meet and marry a wonderful, loving, caring man who has fathered two beautiful children with her. This is not all about the baby in a jar in a lab. It is not all about the wind blowing a bird's egg out of a nest or the prized egg of an endangered species. It is about women and women's lot in life. It is not simple. There is absolutely more than one correct choice to be made. You have every right, and I deeply respect that right, to your beliefs and to practice those beliefs. I have every right to mine. I hope that one day you can learn how to respect my beliefs because I believe that there is room enough for both of us in this world. I believe that what is right for you AND me can be right for millions of other women. But they have to be able to make their own choices based on their own beliefs.

All this back and forth on viability is exactly why it does not matter to me one whit when someone, anyone, decides when a baby is viable. Not that viability is unimportant. It definitely is important. However, it has nothing to do with my belief that the impregnanted woman should be in charge of this singularly personal decision. I believe this for many, many reasons way too numerous to list here. It is all too complicated for this to be a decision that is made for every single woman, in every single situation, at the hands of a segment of the population that believes that only they have the right to decide. And even if it weren't complicated, it is not a decision that I believe should ever be made by one individual for another, with one exception being if the woman is incapacitated and incapable of making any decisions regarding her health. Then I believe her family, with the advice of her doctor, can and should make the decision. This is an extremely personal and extremely important question that only presents itself to women and only in certain cases of pregnancy. You cannot hold yourself up to be the one who gets to intervene in a woman's life and force her to do what you think is right for her. Only she should have the right to make the decision whether or not she is able to have a baby. Only she should be the one who decides if and when she chooses to have sex. But that is often not the case. Sometimes women do not get to be in control of their sexual activity. Sometimes they are forced to have sex and sometimes it can even be at the hands of a relative or their significant other. That is one (and only one of many) reasons why a woman should be the ultimate "decider" when it comes to this potentially life threatening, definitely life changing, and pobably life enhancing decision. Most of the anti-choice movement's activities stem from and are funded by churches and religious people. Most of the extreme anti-choice lobby is funded by extremists. The fact that gadget is not a person who is influenced by religion regarding this question does not alter the fact that churches are behind the fundamental drive to take this decision away from women and appoint themselves as the decision makers for all women. I believe they are wrong. I believe that women are quite able to decide for themselves what they are capable of when it comes to dealing with having been impregnated against their wishes. God made us this way for good reason and He trusts us to do the right thing. We do not need other fallible human beings sitting in judgment and involving themselves in women's God given right to personal choice when it comes to procreation.

Your point gadget, that one person cannot legitimately decide for another person when human life begins, is well taken. That is precisely why the information you posted has no bearing. It is also why your position, that one segment of the population should make that decision for all women is so very wrong. Argue all you want. You cannot pick and choose which studies and papers you want to believe and then impose those beliefs on others. Well I guess you can, but it is patently unfair and wrong as you pointed out in your own post above.

Oh I forgot about you BrandyII. I remember that you've chimed in a few times too. I've noticed that you and I often agree on other threads too. Really nice to get to know you great women through LBT.

Aphrodite I appreciate any positive comments you and pearlygirl aim at me. I'm more used to being the only voice that is pro-choice on this thread off and on a whole lot of the time. It makes me happy to hear from you all. You both sound very level-headed and intelligent and quite able to sort out the propaganda from the genuine arguments on this thread.

That sounds like a colossal pain in the arse, karey. I read somewhere that exotic places are sometimes breeding grounds for that sort of thing and that one needs to be prepared. I guess a spray can of Lysol might do the trick, but I doubt it. And you sure can't fly with a spray can of anything anymore. You go girl - off to work out and I'm proud of you. It will be pretty hard for a while, but you're involved in the makings of one hot mama!

karey, the pictures are great. Her new husband remimds me very much of my high school boyfriend. He was half Armenian. Tall, dark and hansome. Your daughter has a resemblance to you, don't you think? Very pretty. I know you're very proud! I once lived in Montreal. I can't wait to hear about your trip when you get back. It was a couple of the best and most interesting years of my life. We are planning to go back for a visit in a couple of years. I hope you have a grand time. Cirque du Soliel was a very exciting attraction when we were there. It had not yet expanded and gone to Las Vegas. It seems kind of silly to call it a circus these days, but I guess it's the 21st century's version of a circus. How exciting to watch your son perform and realize how strong and in balance he and his life have become. It's very satisfying to watch your children grow into happy, healthy (and prosperous) adults! And sometimes even STARS! Good job, mom! Btw, how does one handle bedbugs???

We "routinely abort babies who are more developed than 22 weeks..."? Really? That's common enough to be routinely done down the hallway from the place that doctors and nurses fight to save the life of another 22 week preemie? Sure, some doctors and women are in the position where they feel that they must do a late term abortion to save the life of the mother or to end the life of her seriously deformed fetus. And sure, it's undoubtedly done in an adjacent area to the maternity ward. But I do not believe that it is fair to characterize that action as routine. I do not believe that it is right for any extremely unfortunate biological event to be described and used in that way. And I certainly do not believe that it should in any way be construed or assumed to be something that is done without much research and contemplation and with the advice of a woman's physician. You've attempted to make it sound like women choose to abort babies "routinely" after 22 weeks. I do not believe that is a fair representation of the facts. I am sure that your tone and words are callous because you were trying to make a point. But I believe that you are being very unfair to those women have found themselves in the position of having to make such a sad and gut-wrenching decision. Furthermore your slavery comparison just doesn't hold water and it is very tiresome. Children and adults are not the same as fertilized eggs (or malformed fetuses). And this is one argument that is only done for shock value. I am extremely grossed out by it and it makes me feel very bad that you feel you must go to such extremes to try to win your argument against women having complete control over their own bodies AND THOSE OF THEIR FERTILIZED EGGS AND MALFORMED BABIES. There's a lot of guilt in America over our history of slavery and you are trying to use that guilt to further your cause. As for the car wreck scenario - or you can even use a gun shooting, a stabbing, an attempted drowning or whatever picture you choose to verbally paint - each case must be decided upon its' own merits. You cannot lump many scenarios like that into one and expect it to be a convicing and conclusive argument that the prosecution of a drunk driver who caused a wreck, for instance, is deemed to be a killer if a pregnant woman loses her baby due to his behavior. In some cases, depending upon the circumstances, an accident or attempt to end a woman's life can certainly end in charges if she loses her baby because of it. In other cases, if the woman is very early in a pregnancy, there is seldom an instance where a D.A. would attempt to prosecute the perpetrator for killing the fetus. If a D.A. did decide to prosecute the perp in a case like that, it is usually seen as a D.A. trying to make the headlines and/or trying to make an example out of a drunk driver or an abuser. If the court room battle is morbid and shocking enough and there are extenuating circumstances, like if the woman is left unable to have children, it could end in a guilty verdict. However that is undoubtedly rare.

Pearlygirl I am very happy for you to have been able to bring your wonderful daughter into this world. I too have a daughter and I wouldn't trade her for anything. I am truly blessed by having her in my life! I appreciated you sharing your story, or at least a small part of it. You have had some first hand experience that gives your logic and beliefs some heavy duty credibility. I am much more impressed when someone says what they think instead of posting what someone else thinks. gadget, the abortion industry, to my knowledge, does not go about trying to secure their "position in the public's mind" at all. However if you were to assume that they did advertise and spend a lot of money on trying to change people's opinions, as the anti-choice people do, and in the same manner as anti-choice people do, they would cite death statistics, grisly photos of newborn babies tossed into a trash bin, tubs filled with blood and a dying woman from a botched attempt at self-abortion, and on and on. But they don't. There is no need for them to do that. The fact is that women sometimes have a need and they exist to help those women in need. There is a demand by virtue of failed birth control, rape, incest, and miriad other reasons too numerous to mention. With the anti-choice movement, there is no built in need involved. The women who choose to give an unwanted baby life are not prohibited from doing do. No one is forced to have an abortion if they do not wish to have one. (Unless there is some parent somewhere who is forcing their child to have an abortion against her wishes.) The law currently allows women to decide for themselves (and for their fertilized egg). Anti-choice people are the ones who are trying to change things so they are the ones who are going to great extremes to influence the thinking of our society. And, I might add, they will stop at nothing. As for your question to me about when I believe that life begins, I do not feel the need to make that determination. Besides, the answer has absolutely nothing to do with my belief that women have the right to choose, no matter what the circumstances. Although I do believe that after a certain number of weeks into a pregnancy, abortions should not be considered except for medical reasons. (And I do not believe that the government should be involved in those cases either.) Just because you keep using terms like "killing", "death", "dismemberment", etc., it does not make them appropriate or even correct. They may well seem perfectly appropriate and correct to you, but to others they may not. I am one of the latter and that is why those inflammatory and distasteful terms seem purely like propaganda to me. I do not view abortion in the same way that you do. And that is my perrogative. Even if the Supreme Court ruled tomorrow that abortion is nothing more than killing a human being and so they find it to be unacceptable, it would not change my belief that women should be the ones who determine whether they will or will not carry an unplanned, unwanted baby to full term. I do not believe that people who serve on the Supreme Court or people who serve in Congress or my Priest or my minister or even my Dad should be able to make a decision like that for me. And I sure don't think that you should be making the decision for women either. Help them yes, force them, no.

gadget when I said something about some of your posts and links not making any sense, you came back with something like: I didn't say it made sense. I take that to mean that you'll post anything just to rile people up. It doesn't matter if it is relevant to the discussion as long as you can fan the fire with something that is completey outrageous in content. If you do not see the difference between a fertilized egg, a human embryo and a baby that is fully developed, or even a person who is living and breathing outside the womb, then I understand why you do not believe that women should have the choice to end an unplanned and unwanted pregnancy. But I do believe that there is a difference and in fact, many differences. They are not all the same. They may all be made up of human cells, but they are not all human beings. IMHO, of course. And I believe that my humble opinion is shared by more Americans than yours is. I could be wrong about that but at least I know that there has been no determination by science or human anatomy and physiology research that supports your viewpoint. It is obvious that you are fully endoctrinated for the cause, that being to make abortion illegal, and you have all the hideous websites, links and graphics that have been compiled in order to shock people into becoming as outraged as you are at the idea of women having this basic control over their reproductive organs. I pray to God that people in your camp are never able to force your beliefs on the women of this world.

They won't kill McDreamy unless his movie career explodes. Or unless he demands too much dough to be the famous surgeon he plays. Oh I could get into this soap opera stuff, Boo Boo. All I really need to do is read stuff here at LBT. It's full of story lines. And it's so much fun!!

I wouldn't wish some people off on a sweet little innocent pet. Gadget I absolutely do care about unborn babies. It's undeveloped fertilized eggs that I do not believe have the same value as a living, breathing human being in every sense of the word. You will have things your way or no way, right? There's no give and take here. Only the lofty idea that you are out to save every human embryo on the planet. Well I just value life too much to share that belief with you. You seem to think that any joining of an egg and sperm has a 100% chance of developing into a human being. Sorry, it just isn't that way. You attribute it to God's will. I believe it has to do with "Mother Nature" (biology). The primary difference between you and me is that you believe that since you are arm-linked with God in your quest to make abortion illegal that you are right, and I believe in your right to go on your quest to save unborn children, but I do not believe that you have the right to legislate your beliefs in deference to all others.