BJean

Plain that was a very nice post. Thank you. But hey, I believe what I believe. There's no policy here that says you have to trot out a bunch of links to prove your point. But I will say that some of what I was ranting about this morning, that you took exception to, was related to a couple of USA Today's articles and one of our local newspaper's editorials. When I mentioned the McCain "camp" I was actually trying to be respectful to another person, by not mentioning names, who posted a diatribe about how McCain's position changes were due to the fact that he's grown and learned, and how that is a commendable trait and all. I probably shouldn't have tossed it into my post to you. The street drug thing is a suggestion by some very good friends of ours (hard to believe, but true) who are extremely conservative and who are fed up with the cost of drug trafficking in the U.S. They actually think it's a good idea. They also think everyone in the U.S. should be issued a gun upon reaching the age of 18 and then taught how to use them and store them. In that way, the bad guys will know that we all have guns and will shoot back at them if they mess with us. I actually can see some wisdom in that, but I would never trust my fellow Americans enough to vote for it. They also believe that George W. Bush is a brilliant man and that his doofus antics are a clever ruse. Now these people are highly educated and very well respected members of their community. They're very active in their Southern Baptist Church. In fact he's a deacon. He is also a top-level Vice President of one of the largest defense contractors in the U.S. So these aren't just some crackpot rednecks I'm talking about. Some of the people's posts I read here at LBT on politics and laws and legislation sound like they might just embrace some of these wacky extreme right wing proposals. And I gotta tell you, it makes me kinda nuts. So I vent here when I find it impossible to vent to some of our friends and continue to stay friends. It's my therapy. So I really don't feel compelled to justify my beliefs or my declarations to anyone. However I am the first to admit that the way I write is a little confusing and since I'm so long-winded, people don't get the entire message, just parts of it here and there. Who can blame them? I'm not trying to make you crazy. I'm just working on keeping myself sane. And I honestly do believe that Obama is the better choice. And I honestly do hope that he doesn't foul it up like Carter did. But right now, to get some relief from the past couple of Bush terms, I'm certainly willing to take a chance.

And yes, I'll guarandamnteeyou that there will be some of the same folks in the White House if McCain gets elected. If you think the entire house will be cleaned from stem to stern, you're the one who's been buying the party line without thinking.

P.S. YOU'RE the one who said that Bush is the devil. I didn't. And just wondering... is your point about Kennedy and the Bay of Pigs being so incredibly wrong supposed to make us think that then it's all right if another president pulls the same type of thing? Or does it make them wrong too? Believe me I know people who believe that anything a president does in the name of national security is absolutely fine. Doesn't take them long to figure things out, does it? Right... They're the same ones who think that anytime we confiscate illegal drugs, we should lace them with lethal chemicals and put it back out on the street. They say that'll eventually take care of the drug problem. Gets the users and the pushers in one fell swoop. Nice. Real humanitarians they are.

plain I just hate it that you don't appreciate my posts. It just ruins my day. McCain actually called the Swift Boat people dishonest, dude. Sure it was for his own personal political reasons, but I certainly respected him for doing it. But he fixed that. And you're right, I've never heard McCain say the words that he supports overturning Roe v. Wade. But that's nitpicking. He went from saying he believes in women's rights to now dancing around the issue and supporting what he thinks will get those right wingers to vote for him and give him campaign money. And yeah, if Obama sells out before the election, then I probably won't vote. Doesn't that just rile you to no end? Btw, do you say that I am regurgitating political talking points because I stand by what I believe in and have done my homework? Because some of the B.S. the McCain camp comes up with to justify his flip flops over the past few years is a little vomitus maximus if you ask me.

green kinda straightened out my meaning a little. I get what you're saying Watcher and I meant to agree with your post, as green did, and there again the written word is not always interpreted as intended. My other point being that the very people who put labels on others, happen to be just as mixed racially as those they have judged to be one race or other. That one drop of blood thing that used to be in the Virginia Constitution really made my blood boil. Wonder if it is still lurking there... I believe that open forums like this that encourage these kinds of discussions can be very helpful to some people who have never really thought about it. When I lived in Canada, I did not observe the racial discrimination that I have seen in the lower states. I was in Quebec Province though. green's further west I think, if that has any bearing.

yeah I understand gadget. A few people have decided that a fertilized egg is a separate individual. But that doesn't mean that they are correct or even right. When they share a circulatory system and oxygen, among other things, a fetus sure isn't separate in any sense of the word from its' mother. Two hearts beat as one, until there are two hearts separate, meaning not sharing all the same vital stuff. You know... separate. Like in Webster's Deluxe Unabridged, Second Edition Dictionary: Separate: to set or put apart (two or more things) into parts, groups, sets, etc., to disunite, to divide, to sever, to part in any manner, to disjoin; withdraw or secede from; to part, come to draw apart, or become disconnected; to part company, to go in different directions, to cease to be associated; to become distinct or disengaged; unconnected; not united; distinct; individual; alone; withdrawn from the company or association of others; solitary; isolated; secluded; of or peculiar to one; not shared or held in common, etc.

tink the great thing about your situation was that you were able to make a choice. What if the government decided that under your circumstances, you absolutely HAD to have an abortion? You may think that sounds like an impossible scenario, but it is not. When the government gets involved, and I don't care whether it is the state or federal government, it is no longer a personal medical decision anymore. And if something happened, let's say an influx of millions of refugees after a natural disaster, and the government decided that rather than preventing abortion, they required that a woman must have an abortion unless the baby would be born into a household with two parents, do you think that would be a good thing? I don't think many people would be very happy about that. Actually I don't know anyone who would embrace a law like that. And to me, it is just absolutely wrong for the government to make these kinds of decisions for women and their unborn babies, whether the government decides that a woman must have an abortion in a particular case, or whether a woman must not have an abortion in a particular case. I think it is great that you chose to keep your child. Very admirable and a beautiful thing. I also think that those women who choose to give their children up for adoption so that their children can have a better life than they can provide, is also a wonderful thing. And in this country both of those possibilities exist and women are smart enough to make these life changing decisions based upon what they believe is best. It is completely wrong for the government to force women to do what the government (made up of who? Supreme Court justices, Presidents, Congress, Judges?) believes women faced with such decisions should do. This question is too important for a few people to make a ruling that impacts all women and their medical, perhaps life threatening, decisions. That is completely wrong. And it goes against everything that this country stands for. Whether you believe women should have abortions is beside the point. No woman is required to have an abortion against her wishes at this point in time. (Let's hope it never comes to that.) On the other hand, neither should a should woman be prevented from making a decision that she and her doctor believe are in her best interests, even if it means that she must have an abortion.

Watcher: Really? You find the premise that we are mostly all of mixed races to be irrelevant? And the idea that none of us can legitimately claim one small part as our genetic idenity is irrelevant? Why does that crack you up so much? Is it because you don't believe that it is ever going to be the norm or is it because so many of us don't have a clue what our genetic makeup is, or is it something altogether different? And obviously you agree, plain. Can you explain it to me? Or do you just extend kudos to TheWatcher because you're happy because you think he "got" me? I'm always interested in reading your posts because it seems like we definitely agree on some issues or parts of some issues but your reasoning is usually different from mine, and you don't seem to respect my posts. Any input could be enlightening for me and I would appreciate it.

This morning I am a little less generous about people's choice to vote for McCain. This race just keeps revealing more and more reasons why Obama is the only right vote in this election. I can appreciate why people are conservative and why they think that the Democrats represent more government and higher taxes. My gosh, take a hard, really honest, look at what the Republicans have done and are proposing to continue! In too many cases, they have done exactly the opposite of what they tell us they want. No well maybes, explain to me exactly how conservative or not you can honestly keep these people in the White House.

Yeah. Don't worry about the economy if we have another Republican president. Things are just fine, thank you very much. This war hasn't cost us anything. Besides, it is just so important that we found and destroyed those weapons of mass destruction that bombed the World Trade Center on 9/11. So we need to keep at it. It has been such a wonderful success story - this war in Iraq. We've nearly killed all the terrorists in the world. We've restored peace in Iraq and killed their former leader (who we helped put in place) and his sons. Now the infrastructure in Iraq is all up and running again and all the very fortunate Iraq citizens have a much, much better life because of our presence in their country. And we keep pouring billions into their country every week. Naaaaah, it has nothing to do with OUR economy. And another really swell reason to support McCain is because we can believe everything he tells us. Well, some will admit that he has done a 180 degree flip flop on some issues, but it's only because he's learned and grown. Wait, say what now? That's why he's now accepting thousands of dollars in contributions from the very people he condemned in the last election for being dishonest and dishonorable (his words) when they put out tons of lies about John Kerry's war decorations. That's why he changed his mind about supporting women's right to choose. Now he's for taking women's rights away and putting them in the hands of his fellow right wing Republicans. They didn't use to be his fellow right wing Republicans. He used to criticize them and had the gumption to buck the extremely conservative positions of his own party. Not any more. Today he needs their votes and their money in order to get elected, so the gumption and strong convictions that we're supposed to think that he got when he was a veteran, no longer applies. Say what? Yeah. That's exactly what I'm sayin'.

Well the case you mentioned that defined for us all that: it is a whole, separate, unique, living human being, is merely a sampling of things to come. (Separate? Really?) When Bush loaded the Supreme Court deck with people who clearly have an agenda to make it against the law for women to make their own choices, we knew exactly what to expect. It is just a matter of time, really. If any of you care, you should make sure you get out and vote. It certainly does make a difference. And if you want people who think it is their right, and theirs alone, to choose who lives and dies in America, in charge of making laws and interpreting them, you better not vote Republican. John McCain used to be in favor of women's right to choose. But in order to get the Republican backing he needed to be the Republican candidate for president, he had to give up that position and adopt theirs - and that's not the only very important compromise that he's made. I used to think that McCain had the gumption and fortitude that he claims from having been a veteran, but I was wrong about him. He was very vocal in his criticism of those "Swift Boat Veterans" and "POWS for Truth" who banded together to attack John Kerry and accuse him of lying about the inidents in Vietnam that led to his military decorations. McCain called the group's advertising "dishonest and dishonorable." But today McCain needs their money and votes so he has accepted nearly $70,000 from the top donors of theose groups and their relatives. To defend his acceptance of donatons from those "dishonest" people, he says that they are obviously interested in supporting his agenda of reform and peace. What? Wait. What? Seriously?

TheWatcher: Pulling hairs? Don't you mean splitting hairs? Or were you referring to the short ones? Sorry. I apologize to the serious posters. I just couldn't let that one slide. I think I wrote a long post (don't I always!) in answer to yours Elenation but I musta forgot to hit submit. So ya'll lucked out today!!

You are hilarious. The more I read your thoughts, the better I like you. I am glad to know that you are not ultra anything because there for a while on a couple of different threads I figured you for kind of an extremist. I used to be more conservative than I am today. And it's funny. I've watched my kids and when they were younger, they were definitely declaring that they were Republicans. They thought that most of what they heard the Republican candidates say, was what they thought was right. (pardon the pun) Now that they are maturing and have been around long enough to see how the different parties actually operate, they have come around (all on their own) to see things more as I do. That is to say that they think that the Democratic candidates care more about the environment and the less fortunate . And this administration and the war have done a lot to turn them completely off to anyone who runs as a Republican. The thing I respect about them is that they are actually doing their homework. They aren't taking anyone else's word for it. I confess that I was on autopilot when I was young and I believed everything my parents said about politics. Which for them was true, but as time went on, things did change. They grew up during the depression and watched their parents struggle and go without. So their liberal leanings hinged a great deal on the fact that their parents were not affleuent, or even upper middle class. They were not dirt poor, but pretty darned poor. When I started thinking more for myself, I spent a lot of time reading and watching how things unfolded and I wound up marrying a very conservative, religious, nearly perfect individual. Since I loved and respected him so much, and since our livelihood benefitted from a more Republican political position, I eased away from my parents politics and closer to my husband's. Now I believe I have truly come into my own. I have stopped worrying so much about what everybody else thinks and I'm not afraid to argue for what I believe is true. The war and having Bush in the White House greatly aided my husband's business (and my pocketbook) but I still believe that this administration has it all wrong. So it is no contest for me. I believe what I've read of Obama's. I believe that he is sincere when he is says what he wants to do. And I believe that what he wants to do is the right thing. Now someone like Jack will tell you that it doesn't really matter that much who is president. And I understand his point completely. My DH would agree with him. However I have witnessed both parties being in the White House, with and without Congress being of the same party, and I can tell you that it does matter. As I have said before, if you like the things that this administration has accomplished in the past 7 years, then I think you should vote for McCain. If you do not like the way things have gone, then I don't think you have any choice but to vote for Obama if you truly want your vote to count for something. The other thing I want to say is that even if he has less experience than McCain, he is certainly not the first young and relatively inexperienced man to become president and I believe in taking a chance on him and the hope he brings to the White House, especially when the alternative is so obviously not what I believe is right for this country. And the last thing I'll say elenation is that I respect your viewpoint and I wish more people gave this election as much thought as you have.

jlg, you're right. He's brown, not black. And I hope that he does represent the best of both worlds and not the worst of either. I am part American Indian. That does not make me an Indian. (Although I would be proud to be called an American Indian.) I am also Scotch-Irish. And that doesn't make me Scotch-Irish either. I may have a few genetic traits of both, but I can't exclusively identify with either. It reminds me of when Tiger Woods was first known to the public and there was such a huge deal made about him being the first black golfer on the tour and allowed in the exclusively white clubhouses. He isn't sorry that his father gave him his black genes, but he also didn't feel that he was exclusively a black person. His mother is Asian and he would be dissing her if he did wear his blackness as if he were only black. He was a new category, but the media and public only saw him as black. There aren't too many of us in America that are exclusively one race. However we forget about our own mixed blood and are quick to label others who are not caucasian, as completely Asian, Black, Arab, Indian, or whatever even though they may be just as mixed genetically as those of us who appear to be totally caucasian, but who also have Asian, Black, Arab or Indian genes. We sure can be dumb bells sometimes, eh? :thumbup:

Some people are predicting that a massive increase in well drilling or not, gas prices will reach $7.00 a gallon by 2010. Shouldn't we all support developing better ways of supplying energy instead of continuing to use so much oil? I'm for spending our time and money on refining electric driven cars and refining and making nuclear power plants safer as well as harnessing wind and upgrading and using existing solar energy processing cells. They may only be alarmists, but there are people who believe that polar ice may melt completely this year and that from then on, ice at the north pole will freeze, melt and refreeze each year. How can that NOT have a huge effect on our planet? Even if they are exaggerating, what do we have to lose by doing everything it takes, retooling, reinventing and upgrading to wean ourselves off of our dependence on oil in this country? More drilling and more easily accessible and cheaper oil sources will likely encourage further delays in the changes we need to make.

Jachut: How very big of you to apologize and take responsibility for this thread! I am serious. I am very impressed with what you've said about your part in this mess. I have to do the same thing. I got pretty uptight on the other thread when I decided to go to bat for someone I thought was being jumped on by several people. I am sure I went too far in my posts and I became defensive when I read a couple of laurend's posts. I apologize for that. I hadn't been fully participating on the original thread and I realize that I may not have really understood the total picture. I think that sometimes when we read the written word, especially when there are disagreements, it is easy to think that the writer is being meaner than they actually intended to be. I've seen that happen lots of times and you can see the points where that happened on this thread. The thing that I hated the most about how this unfolded was that you, Jachut, said that you've been criticized for being successful. I think that is every bit as bad as someone criticizing another person for not being successful. The one thing we all have in common here is our band and our goal to lose weight and be healthier. We should not be critical of each other on one extreme or the other. None of us is perfect in the weight department or we wouldn't be here at LBT. We have all had issues or are having issues about weight. We are commrades in that. I believe there have been some awesome personal stories that have come out of this thread and if those continue, it will be a good thing. Another good thing is that maybe by venting, like we both did Jachut, it has been healthy and it gave us an opportunity to bring out some very important issues that were boiling under the surface. I am glad that I have had an opportunity to get to know you a little better and I apologize for being hard on you. I am also sorry that I was hard on laurend. I'm sure she didn't mean to hurt me.

Hmmm, yeah I guess you're talkin' to me and I reckon I'll answer to Billy Jean. We got into a more personal discussion over at: Poll-Democrat or Republican?

Obama, acting black? If you mean that he takes on some of the issues that affect black Americans, I totally agree. If his wife has been outspoken about her feelings, I believe that it can be a good thing if it makes more Americans aware of some of the relevant issues that too often get swept under the rug. As for his inexperience, I haven't pulled it up to verify dates of service in the Senate, etc., but I did live through it - Jack Kennedy was about Obama's age and he had not served for very long in the Senate. They said back then that he was a young whippersnapper and that he didn't deserve to be president and they couldn't believe he would take on someone as powerful as Lyndon Johnson. Well that turned out to be absolutely and completely wrong. Although John Kennedy was young and somewhat inexperienced, and he was a very powerful and effective president. He and his brother actually did go about trying to make the changes that they believed would benefit America, the land of the free and home of the brave. We all know what they got for their efforts. Back then, Republicans absolutely hated the Kennedys. Even if you're young you have heard people speak ill of the Kennedys. At least you've certainly heard them speak ill of Ted Kennedy. And yet, anyone who has ever served with him in the Senate and those in the House of Representatives, Democrats and Republicans alike, say that he is a tireless worker and no one denies that he has been responsible for a whole lot of good legislation during his tenure. It is primarily legislation that benefits the average American. The people in his state are proud of him and appreciate the work he has accomplished in his long career in Washington. Ted Kennedy thinks Barack Obama is fit for the job. He endorsed him pretty early in the game, and the Kennedys and the Clintons have been good friends since before Bill was president. As a Republican I know that doesn't impress you, but I think it is impressive for Barack Obama to have been endorsed by Ted Kennedy and so many other very important people.

chickie: I went to your photos and read your press clippings. Wow! What an amazing story. You look fabulous!! And you're running marathons. What a great accomplishment. You've got to be proud as can be with how well you handled the surgeries and now your healthy maintenance phase. And you're so young, so this is going to mean so much to you for the rest of your life. I honestly can't imagine who would have or could have said anything negative to you through all this. It is completely beyond me. I'm shocked and sad to know that you had to deal with that. I'm sure you've become a very strong person throughout the whole ordeal and I certainly commend you for that. You know they say that the things that don't kill us make us stronger. I'm sure that you don't mean to say unkind things to anyone who is having issues trying to lose weight because if anyone knows how bad it feels to be criticized, you certainly do.Thanks so much for sharing your story.

You know this is exactly the kind of stuff that made me jump in and get all upset about the way one person was being treated. It is one thing for one person to "let someone have it" but here at R&Rs, it doesn't ever seem to be a one-on-one debate. Everyone has to choose sides and then well, rant and rave and get mean. That wouldn't be so bad but it gets entirely out of hand when one person is taking all the hits. Everyone seems to go too far when it goes on for so long. Like for instance, laurend and I have always seemed to be able to get along nicely even when we disagreed. However these couple of threads brought out the beast in both of us and now even friends can't seem to get past it. I would never threaten to leave because it would just make too many people happy. Well seriously, I wouldn't threaten to leave because it doesn't hurt anyone else and just makes people wonder why you can't take the heat if you're wanting to be in the kitchen. Jasmine I think you're a very cool person and I hope you and chickie will see your way clear to take a break and start over again someplace else. We need to stick a fork in this thread! Jachut made an attemp, I made an attempt and Wasa made an attempt. Why don't we just get back to relating our good experiences and forget about giving each other a hard time? LBT should never be a place where people who are losing quickly give those who aren't a hard time for not being succssful. And it certainly shouldn't be a place where the opposite is true. And I don't care if it is at Rants & Raves, Homosexual atheists or Right Wing fanatics threads. Giving each other hell for our weight issues is just utterly ridiculous.

I'll definitely be interested in what you find out. It's something new to me and I wonder how much damage one can actually do in such a short time. You wouldn't think you could do anything irreversible. I'll check out the site on Monday and sign in.

benhamgal: You believe that oil regenerates? You think there is a never-ending supply? And you think that even though there are much better alternatives out there that will not endanger our planet, that since we need oil, we should just keep drilling everywhere and tough doo-dee for the planet? Those are some mighty interesting declarations, dude. I'd love to know your sources for that information.

No wonder you're as opinionated as I elenation - you had a strong father like I did. I'm glad you're bringing up your youngun's right too. On the discrimination question: I reckon that if I did not vote for McCain because of his age, that would be age discrimination. I do believe that it is something people should consider but it isn't why I'm not voting for him. If I were a conservative Republican, it probably wouldn't stop me from voting for him and I would undoubtedly use your rationale. We definitely have to declare an impasse as regards the Reagan years. When you aren't conservative, it is impossible to endorse the workings of such a conservative administration. I also know a lot of behind the scenes things that the mass media never brought forth. Those things certainly helped color my Reagan looking glass. As a conservative, I imagine you're pleased with the Supreme Court's recent rulings. Since I am not a conservative, I am quaking in my boots. I'm sure that must bring a little smile to your face.

ebrow, you're 19 and you're gonna vote? Good for you!! And you know the candidates and feel good about casting a vote for the right man for you. I am very impressed. I voted as soon as I was able, but I had a politician in the family and he probably would have disowned us if we had acted like voting didn't matter.

Sorry, elenation. You're right, it's a serious problem because it's not something that McCain can do a thing about. And I am sorry if you think I am being discriminatory. I know you're not supposed to ask someone how old they are when you interview them for a job. However if you were hiring someone to work for you and the job carried huge responsibility and the job put your employee in charge of lots of money and the job was physically stressful because of travel, personal appearances, etc., and the employee needed to carry a gun at all times and always use good judgement before pulling that gun out, and you wanted someone for a minimum of four years, would you honestly choose a 70+ year old, who has had cancer and still has problems from lets say a car accident, over a 45-ish person who is extremely intelligent and had lots of creative new ideas, is extremely cautious before whipping out his gun and threatening someone and on top of all that is also physically fit? Well I guess anyone might if they knew for sure that they agreed with the elder candidate's proposed plan of action for their company and disagreed with the younger person's new ideas. That's the real rub, isn't it? I am well on in years myself just in case you think I am too young to appreciate what someone with advanced years can offer. I happen to know first hand (although I am not in my 70's) that there are a lot of changes that most people have to deal with when they are over 55. And besides, some of my best friends are brilliant senior citizens. I am sorry I'm the one to toss it into the discussion, but I do believe that it is a relevant consideration. Btw, I wasn't talking about the period of time that Reagan took office the first time or even early in his 2nd term. I was talking about the last couple of years that the was in office and obviously had Alzheimers. That affected the man's abilities, there's no question about it. Which brings up a little pet peeve of mine: the Republicans have spent a lot of time spinning PR about how great Reagan was and they drop his name when they want to impress people what a great job the Republicans did when he was in office. I would probably buy it if I didn't have such a good memory and if I could put out of my mind the 200 or so people around him who were indicted and/or convicted of criminal behavior while working for him.