BJean

The videos you watch that are horribly gruesome and violent are as far as I'm concerned an exaggeration of the truth. An abortion (early in the pregnancy) is a simple procedure. We all have our own beliefs on this of course but I have been present at a live abortion and I was shocked at how very simple it was and how quickly my friend was able to recover. This was a girl who, if she had been unable to obtain an abortion, she would have either killed herself or tried to terminate her pregnancy herself. Now Carrie, that would have been a grisly scene and one where not only the fertilized egg died, my friend might have died as well. There are lots of violent, grisly scenarios that we can put forth. None of us really wants to think about the women here - except maybe Butch and me and a few others. The focus of this discussion has been on the aborted fetus because it is what can be used to turn this discussion into a gut wrenching, heart string pulling, sad, sad, sad thing. For a woman who cannot live through taking an unwanted, unplanned pregnancy to term, abortion is far from a sad thing. It is a procedure that is simple, safe, and life SAVING!

Once again gadget, I will reiterate as many times as I need to, Senator Obama does not want to withhold medical care from babies who are born alive. You are putting your own (or whoever convinced you of it) spin on Senator Obama's vote. His vote was not about killing babies. His vote was based on whether an additional medical professional should be mandated to be present when a baby is born alive after an abortion. There is a distinction that is obviously lost on you and that distinction has to do with the issue that it is inappropriate for the government to mandate additional medical personnel to be present in those cases. You are using his beliefs against him and you are twisting his beliefs to mean something that they do not mean to further your cause. And you're also doing it to harm his standing as a candidate for president. I agree with you when you say that people do change their minds, however I have a strong feeling that when people read this debate here, they won't necessarily be agreeing with you and your methods. One can only hope.

Human development does begin at fertilization. No doubt about it. That is a scientific fact. But it is still being debated whether a fertilized egg has all the rights of a fully developed human being. You talk about a zygote's right to life. I talk about a woman's right to life. Senator Obama is intelligent enough to know that what he says is not going to be accepted as evidence of anything with regard to when life begins. He does not presume to be God. Whereas many of you do make that presumption for yourselves.

That's an easy question to answer: the exaggerations and untruths come when it is said in several sneaky ways that Senator Obama does not want to extend life saving medical care to viable babies. There have been characterizations placed on his motives that just do not jibe with his heart and beliefs although you can make those claims and people can believe them since you go about posturing and posting the way you have here to make it look like everything you've previously said is undoubtedly true. You people are quite good at what you do. I have no doubt that if you win this battle, you will choose to believe that the ends justifed the means. Just as those authors of the Swift Boat campaign did.

Conotrary to your claims, your last paragraph isn't 100% factual. I don't doubt that Democrats try to muddy the waters too, but the facts are not what the Republicans (right winger Republicans - not all mainstream Republicans) have said. Yes, there are some facts that are thrown in to give their claims validity - and unfortunately many Americans believe the entire content of their claims - just because there is even one single element of truth involved. But it is the right wingers who have done such a magnificent job of muddying the waters on this issue. And the thing that I can't get past is that they claim that everything they're saying is true. In fact that is not factual. Stick a fork in me - I'm done with this dead horse. If people are so ignorant that they want to believe Senator Obama has death and killing as his motive, then nothing I can say will change their minds. If they choose to listen to you here at LBT and believe that everything you put forth is factual, then they will learn the truth after the election. Just like I hope they did after the last election.

You're still wrong. I do not believe that a baby must be outside a mother's womb in order to deserve the basic human right to life. Period. No qualifiers. You have messed with the facts so much you believe that you know what I have said and what I believe but what you've come up with is just simply wrong. Doctors are well trained in life saving measures. All doctors. If they are not, there's no way that they as human beings attending to the medical needs of a woman, should they or can they be certified as doctors. So if there is a qualified doctor present, why would additional doctor(s) be required? You want to make it sound like any doctor who would find it necessary to medically abort a baby to preserve the life of the mother, would desire to kill a viable baby. I know all you've stated about doctors and medical personnel tossing babies into a closet, but I do not believe that is the norm and I do not believe that it is fair to characterize it in that way. It is the way you would like for people to believe is the norm because it adds fuel the fire against Senator Obama and his views. And it furthers your cause against a woman's right to make decisions about her own medical treatment and that of her child. You want to inteject yourself into any scenario that could possibly involve an unborn child and I (and I believe Senator Obama) do not believe in your right to you to do that. And no, you are wrong, Senator Obama did not fight against any baby's right to medical care. He fought against the government's forced intervention in those types of medical situations. You don't understand it. I get that. But you are the very one here at LBT who is using this to convince people that you and the Republican media spinners are right about Senator Obama. The fact is that you are wrong and you justify your depiction of what he believes because you want abortion to be illegal. Period. People deserve the truth. People are smart enough to make their own decisions. It is patently unfair for people who oppose things to make claims about their opponent's beliefs in order to further their agenda. That's what the Republicans are all about. They don't run on the true issues that are facing Americans. They run on fear tactics, lies and innuendo. Just lobby for abortion to be made illegal and play fair. I believe that the reason that you don't play fair is because you know you can't win if you don't make anyone who has the opposing viewpoint, out to be a baby killer. I am not a baby killer. I don't believe that Senator Obama has any desire to kill babies either.

First let me clarify something that you have stated, here in writing, that is my belief but which in fact is completely incorrect and not a belief that I hold true. I do not, nor have I ever said, that a baby is not a baby until it is outside a mother's womb. You are completely and totally inaccurate about that statement and I resent it very much. Don't make me have to spend the time explaining the difference between what I have actually said here and what you have stated that I believe. You can rest assured that you are utterly and completely wrong about this. Your declarations about what I believe are similar to the way the right wing has chosen to characterize and put emphasis on what Senator Obama stated about the reasoning behind his vote. You, and others, have put your own interpretation on what you think he believes because you do not like his vote and you want to make him look like a baby killer. He has explained that he believes that a woman's medical care, provided by a doctor she whom trusts and has put her life in his hands, should not be legally required to have intervention by an outside doctor if there is a baby born that is viable. He went on to say that it is a given that if a baby is born that is alive, every normal course of action should be utilized to save the life of the baby. I know that you do not understand. I do not expect you to. Your beliefs are clouded by all the horrors that you envision surrounding a woman's right to choose her own medical care. I wouldn't want to know the number of times you have viewed bloody, horrible videos of botched abortions. I know that you feel that saving babies is your job and I believe that you will do it however you can. I understand your passion but I cannot justify the way you and others go about trying to get your beliefs legislated with regard to this issue.

I'm headed off to bed so you can feel free to put my statements in quotes and add your rebuttals beneath them to your heart's content. I won't be playing the game anymore tonight. Ciao.

And by the way, your statement that Senator Obama voted to actively kill babies or leave them to die is one of the stretches of your propaganda makers that is what I was talking about. Senator Obama does not believe that a woman's rights and the judgement of her doctor should be second guessed by an outsider, a government entity or anyone else. That's what I agree with and that is something you'll never understand.

I understand and agree with what Senator Obama said about the reasons behind his vote and I disagree with the narrow-minded, intellectually inferior people who felt railroaded into voting the way you think is right. Do we have to go through this exercise again? You know you're right, I know that I am right and we can talk until the cows come home, we're blue in the face and every other silly scenario and neither of us will understand each other or agree with each other. If the rest of the world fell off the flat edge and it was just you and me left, I'd fight you as hard and firmly as I could on this very issue without budging one iota. I do not agree with you and your characterization of a abortion being the termination of a person's human rights. I know you think that you are fully 100% correct and I know that you do not believe that anyone can dispute or disagree with that characterization, but you are wrong. And the louder and more grisly you become only makes me dig my heels in deeper. It's simple... you are wrong and I am right. You can insult me and try to make me out to be something that is nothing short of one who condones taking the life of a person. So be it. That's your perrogative. I came here of my own free will. I know what you're about and that's exactly why I'm here. But I will stop short of making personal accusations about you and your motives. I won't threaten you in any way except to tell you that you are wholly, 100% wrong on this issue. You are brainwashed and you are comfortable with that brainwashing and you make it your job to brainwash others. Believe me, there will always be plenty of people like me around to call you on it. For everyone else out there, I hope you will all get out the vote for our next President of the United States, Barack Obama - because if you don't, you will learn just how horrible it can be when the right wing fanatics take away every woman's right to make their own medical decisions.

Well I have all those symptoms too and I gotta axe ya, do yer hands puff up like water balloons too??? Thanks Nancy. Yes, cheese binds and after my surgery that's what the doctor ordered (seriously). Fortunately it worked. Then he recommended lots and lots of water. All this reminds me of the time I went to a space shuttle launch in Cocoa Beach and we were at the VIP viewing area which was outside and I had to go pee and they had portapotties so I went in one and locked the door and put the paper on the seat, pulled down my gear and peed for all I wuz worth and midstream what happened you say? well a tree frog (of which I had never encountered before) jumped on my upper thigh and I was screaming and hollering and trying not to pee myself and trying to get the little bugger off me, which wasn't happening so when I finally finished I dried myself and stood up, still screaming and hollering, and had to pull he damned thing off and my daughter and friends were all crowded around the portapotty yelling "are you all right???!!!" and I came out, thoroughly disheveled and horribly red and embarrassed and told them what happened. My first encounter with a tree frog in Florida. I think I burned some calories during the process.

I'm glad I gave you a forum to post what really went on in the senate on this issue at one time. Because I agree with those senators wholeheartedly. You do not understand why they voted that way and I do not expect you to. You approach this issue with blinders on and with extreme bias. I am just as biased against some people taking away women's fundamental rights to govern their own bodily processes and functions. And since you asked, please understand that I do not believe that every egg that has an initial joining with a sperm is entitled to or even can mature. And that is not always the mother's will - it is God's will as well. And I thank God that some folks who would like to, cannot interject themselves into a woman's body and control her. Btw, I forgot to congratulate Butch for his awesome weight loss! Way to go! This is not an easy job - shedding our overages of poundage - and anyone who can do it deserves our applause and respect - you got mine!

Frogs... reads like CHEESE! Only a few of you will get that. You can tell I'm an oldie at LBT - most of my cheesy comrades have gone by the wayside. plain: it reminds me of that lovely girl who wanted to be like Snow White... but she drifted.

Well Carrie if you don't want children I guess that means that you can't have sex. At least that's how the anti-choice people would have you behave. There are no birth control methods that are 100% - except for abstinence. So there you go. If you don't want kids and you don't believe in abortion, you better never allow yourself to have sex. That means that you must avoid getting raped too. As for Butch - good for you, man. You are absolutely spot on with regard to how women are perceived and treated in this country. Having the government control women by telling them they have no choice is in alignment with our view of women as pieces of meat. There is no law saying that you have to have an abortion if your birth control fails - there should be no law saying that you cannot have an abortion if your birth control fails. Some people would like for us all to believe that every fertilized egg should and can mature into a baby. I disagree that every fertilized should and can mature into a baby. As I have said probably a thousand times before in this thread, this is not something that should be legislated. It is something that each and every person must decide for themselves. I do not believe that it is anyone else's job to save every fertlized egg. People should not have that kind of control over other people. Babies should not be viewed as a comodity. Respect women and this question can take it's proper position in our lives - as a matter between a woman, her God and her doctor. To have it any other way is just plain wrong. It would be equally wrong for certain individuals or the government to intervene in a woman's life by telling her that she could not have a baby unless they said it was acceptible. Why can't you all understand that? I thank God for men like Butch and Senator Obama. They obviously understand this issue much better than many Americans. That is why the anti-choice people have stretched what Senator Obama has said and done to make him out to be a villian on this question. The man is truthful and he has the capacity to understand the entire issue. I certainly do not find any fault in Senator Obama for that. Unlike John McCain who actually has said that he is pro-choice in the past but in order to get the Republican right-wing vote, he claims that he will be a "pro-life" President. That is the only way that fundamentalist Christians (and others who are anti-choice) will vote for him. And it is a basic part of the Republican platform now that the right wingers have taken over the Republican party. They should stop crucifying Senator Obama and start being up-front about what they really have planned for this country. Fat chance... they could never get elected if they did that.

Well Jack, thanks for asking. Btw, I remember reading something that you said a long time ago about figuring out that one egg is plenty - not exactly your words, but you were talking about realizing that one egg for each of you (and your spouse) was totally adequate. Are you still being good and have you reached your goal? I was impressed that you had found that you could and should be satisfied with one egg. I had major surgery on July 7 - totally unexpectedly and all of my restriction was removed. I just got a fill last week and I'm beginning to get my appetite back after all the medications, etc. So I could be doing much better, but I'm feeling healthy at this point and healed from the surgery so life is good. I have not reached my goal but do still plan to. I have been banded 2 years in September. You?

Hey karey. Sorry I've been away from the computer lately. Too much on my plate (so to speak). My weight loss has slowed a lot, but I'm still hoping to make my goal. I was very sorry to hear about your knee surgery. Dang it, girl! If it's not one thing it's two others! I was told a couple of years ago that I need both of my knees replaced. That situation has been instrumental in my weight loss being so difficult. Exercise is a challenge because I can't do anything where I bear my full body weight. So when I lift weights, for instance, I have to be sitting instead of standing. The more weight I lose, the less pain I have to live with in my knees. They say that one pound of weight loss equals 4 pounds of pressure off your knees. So the closer I get to goal the better for me. I refuse to have my knees replaced. I don't know how long I can get away with it, but I hope to never have my knees replaced! I'm hoping that one day they will come up with a much better procedure and better equipment. Right now the replacements are only expected to last around 18 years. That's just not good enough! And the recovery is 6 months. I just can't face it. Your surgery doesn't sound nearly as bad and I hope that it keeps you from having to have replacements for a really long time! Are you sure that you need your behind and arms done? I just feel so sorry for you going through another procedure with all you've had to deal with! Hang in there! Keep us posted. bj

Jack that is exactly why I do not see any value in debating this issue with you or other Republicans. We do not agree on what we think is right for this country, thus we do not agree on which political candidate is right for this country. I am not trying to convince you of anything. I know better. I only post at LBT for my own enjoyment. I get to say whatever I want and I get to post whatever I believe. It really has nothing whatever to do with you or other posters. I enjoy meeting up with people who see things as I do. Don't you? I don't enjoy bantering (or clever repartee) with people who are just trying to one-up me. On the other hand, if I think someone is being unfair I think it is okay for me to say so. It really doesn't do me a bit of good to argue though. I just find it frustrating. Not all that good for my health. How about yours?

mizzupoodle: Sounds like your man checked out long ago. Don't let him put you on a guilt trip by making threats like that! He obviously has some issues that he's dealing in those counseling sessions. The fact that he's excluding you says pretty much that right now he's only interested in his problems - and is not taking any responsibility for your pain and frustration and doesn't care that you're hurt and confused. You can't get things worked out when you don't even know what the problem is. You should go for counseling on your own too. Seriously. This isn't a pi$$ing contest. You need to survive whatever is coming too. This marriage isn't just about him. And your children deserve both parents. Not just you and not just him. You owe it to them to work through whatever the problems armay be. They deserve a happy mother. If you won't do it for yourself (and you should) then do it for your children. Once things are a little clearer to both of you, then you can work on counseling togther. Sometimes if it is a good counselor, all it takes is one or two sessions. Seriously!

No point in this Democrat arguing with die hard Republicans about our presidential race. Obviously I believe that I know what I am talking about when I endorse Senator Obama's value system or any of his other political positions. He is the first person to come along in decades that I believe has his head on right. (not meaning far right, of course) I fully appreciate him not cowtowing to others like so many politicians in Congress do constantly, in order to appease each other and ensure their piece of the lobbyists' pie. I have already said what I think of him. I've said what I think of McCain. It is pointless to argue with those who believe that voting for McCain is the right thing for this country. In my heart I know that he is not right for this country and if you vote for him and he wins, I hope with all my might that I am wrong about him. I know that I am not wrong about Senator Obama. I am sorry that so many people have enjoyed and embraced the opposition's untrue and misguided attacks on him and his character. If you simply disagree with his politics that is, of course, an entirely different matter. It's a free country - sort of. If you don't count illegal elections in your desire for freedom.

Actually preconditions and unconditional are not the same. But I'm not one to quibble. Uh, well, maybe so... I'll go to the link and see if I interpret what was said in the same way that the McCain camp has. Your last sentence makes me wonder why you even bother participating in a discussion of this sort if you do not think that presidents have any bearing on change in this country. If there have been no changes (that George Bush promised) since the time of Bill Clinton, I'm a monkey's uncle. But if you are saying that the changes candidates promise are different from the changes that they actually affect, then I agree. And I especially agree in the case of George W. Bush. He promised smaller government when he has delivered just the opposite. He promised big tax cuts and what he delivered are little rebates to some of the people. He never promised a rose garden and in that way he certainly delivered.

plain if you don't know it, you aren't paying attention. Jack if you can find a link that shows Senator Obama saying that he endorses meeting with anti-american leaders with no conditions, I would really appreciate you sharing. I've been very attentive to what both candidates have said and never saw him utter such a statement. Please, enlighten me. I don't know how I've missed the fact that Senator Obama has said lies about McCain. I really have been watching everything I can. I'm not saying that he hasn't criticized McCain - there's plenty of that. But I haven't heard any lies or half-truths. And as for Senator Obama's voting and performance record, I completely agree with everything he's done in his limited career (limited compared to the aged McCain's career) and I appreciate nearly everything he would like to see changed. When I learned that he voted against the war in Iraq, I knew that he was an intelligent person who isn't afraid to stand up for his convictions. I appreciated that he stood up for what was right at the time and I appreciate that he continues to move in the direction that I believe this country should be moving in. I believed McCain when he said he wanted to keep this campaign clean. He stood up to the plate when he decried the Swift Boat debacle so I figured he meant what he said. But now the Karl Rove machine has been brought in and this campaign is no better than the ones they ran in the past. Rebublicans should insist on better from their candidates and the men who run their campaigns.

I've tried to send ya'll a note 3 times and for some reason it keeps dumping my posts. Please know I appreciate your comments to me. And I'll try again tomorrow! I lost 1 lb. last week. I'm feeling like I probably need to go ahead and get some restriction put back in! bj

In fact, a good example of what I'm talking about is found at the bottom of this thread. It is a question that asks: "Is it okay to Unconditionally meet with anti-American Foreign leaders?" Yes____ or No____ Paid for by John McCain for President. Now exactly when did Senator Obama suggest that it is okay for anyone to meet "UNCONDITIONALLY" with Anti-American Foreign leaders????? The honest answer is: He never has suggested or said that AT ALL! He said that he believes that it is in the best interests of the United States of America to meet with any and all heads of state of foreign countries... but he also said that we should not meet unconditionally with anti-American leaders. Of course he said it much better than I just did, but does this stop the Republicans or John McCain specifically from suggesting that Senator Obama thinks it is okay for a president to meet with foreign enemies of the United States? No. They go right ahead and ignore the truth and ignore what Senator Obama actually said and believes, and continue to lead people down the path of painting Senator Obama with a tainted brush. Republicans can't win without their dirty tricks. They proved it with Richard Nixon and have continued to prove it in every presidential (and many local) races since then. They believe that they are right about bombing Iraq. The fact is that they were and are wrong. They suggest that Senator Obama is wrong for wanting to get us out of Iraq. They have tried to paint that truth with the worst possible scenario - saying that Senator Obama would sell our troops down the river and leave a job undone by pulling out troops too rapidly. Lies, half-truths, ugly innuendo. That's what this race is about now and I for one, am sick to death of it.

In the matter of this race for the presidency, vacuous as a definition for experience is an interesting observation on your part, Jack. Especially since you go on to demean Senator Obama's experience in the same post. I believe experience is an important commodity in most jobs. However you sure can't count on experience to be the most important component for job qualification. For instance John McCain has lots of experience but his intellect is lacking. Senator Obama, on the other hand, is a brilliant man and has an awesome value system - one that McCain obviously lacks. In this particular race I believe that intelligence trumps experience. I am so sick of McCain's glomming onto the usual Republican tactic of saying anything and everything, real or imagined, honest and dishonest, just hoping that some of it sticks. Some of it always sticks, of course, and that's exactly how Republicans get elected in this country. They refuse to stick to the actual issues and much prefer to get all ugly and personal. It has been particularly ugly and dishonest over the past 3 weeks or so. I know why people choose to believe the lies and half-truths that they hear their candidate say, but for the life of me I can't understand how they can sleep at night when they put a guy like that in office.

I have an amazingly good whey protein mix that I use with skim milk for breakfast about 2 or 3 days a week. I get it from the doctor although I think I could probably buy it online for a lot less. It's very convenient to get it from him and I don't pay shipping. Without the milk it's 24 gms of protein and of course there's some protein in the milk. It's like drinking chocolate milk but not quite as chocolaty - but just as good. I could get creative and pump it up, but it is such a quick way to have breakfast, I don't bother. It's called: Peak Nutrition. Bioengineered Ion-Exchange whey protein. Located at Syracuse, NE. Absolutely the best tasting supplement I've ever had and I've had lots and lots. I wish I had some of your OCD, although not all. I am going to keep you in mind and use you for inspiration for keeping up with my food and drink journal! Is your notebook small so that you can carry it with you?