BJean

Well I'd say this thread has hit an all time low, but I can remember others where the conservatives and the liberals were at odds and it got even more out of hand than this one. But I am really surprised, shocked really, that anyone in America still thinks that Senator Barack Obama is a Muslim! If you think that, what are your sources? Are you deaf, blind and stupid? Or just so blinded by bias that you can't accept the truth about Senator Obama? So afraid that maybe he'll raise taxes, or that a man of some color will inhabit the White House? I promise you that if anyone tells you that they will not raise taxes when they get in the White House, they are lying. McCain will raise taxes, he's just not honest enough to admit to what extent he's going to have to do it. There's no other way out of this mess right now. Perhaps in the future taxes can be lowered again, but right now, we have to pay (big time) for what this Republican president has done while in office. For the person who kept asking what the Democratic agenda is. We could list it for you, easily. But why bother? I'm not convinced that you know the real Republican agenda - real because they prove it time after time though - not real because of what they promise they'll do. For anyone who calls Senator Obama "scary" I say they are ignorant. Ignorant of the facts and swayed by the trash they probably read on the 'net or perhaps they are listening to Rush, as someone admitted earlier. In fact, I am surprised that anyone admits to listening to that bald faced liar. But then I am surprised that anyone can want another 4 years of what we've had for the past 8. Republicans have sold us all down the river and our current economic situation has thrown a huge spotlight on that fact. They've sold our military down the river by thrusting them into a hideous war that has taken thousands of American military lives and has not seriously accomplished anything long term for that country, except for the bombed out condition that Iraq is in now and except for all the killed relatives they mourn. Oh yes, do you know what the monetary cost of the surge (that McCain touts as being so great), is costing us American taxpayers? Do you know how much money we're giving the government in Iraq? To continue... Republicans sold the taxpayers down the river because they promised less government and what they've delivered is MORE government. They've helped themselves become richer by their open, hands-off policies... their "trickle down" theory of economics, and unless you are one of those fat cats, you're crazy for voting them back in office. My guess is all this boils down to one big issue for many right wing conservatives: getting Roe v. Wade overturned. That's why you're thrilled with Sarah Palin and that's why you'll take the rotten bastards back after they've done such dispicable things to our country. Your Christian rightness screams out for what you believe is fair to the unborn children and nothing else matters much to you. The way some people have been endoctrinated by their church leaders and perhaps their parents and their Bible is what's scary in this country because it has led you to believe that it is your right - even your mission - to tell other Americans how to think, believe and worship. If you are one Christian who doesn't understand the reason for separation of church and state, then you need to get smart and stop behaving as the little sheep spoken of in the Bible.

Let me get this straight, Jack... you blame some Democratic Congressmen for this financial debacle? Really? Do you likewise put all the blame for the bad mortgage loans like your fellow Republicans say, squarely on the shoulders of the "stupid" homebuyers who used them? That's like saying that people who didn't drive tiny, low mileage, dangerous cars are also to blame for buying the magnificent, luxurious, extremely safe SUV's that the automakers manufactured. What convoluted thinking! Who stood to gain from the mortgage loans they invented? Who stood to gain from the gas-guzzling, expensive SUVs they created? I guess we have nothing further to discuss, you and I. We have absolutely no way to get there from here. You last three posters make some excellent points! Keep up the good work.

Sarah Palin's extremely right wing viewpoints do not represent mainstream America. We cannot stomach the idea of someone who is so very extremeist becoming our president. We cannot stomach the idea that one of the candidates for president chose someone who is so out of touch and out of her league. It begs the question, why? If the Republicans continue to have their way, Sarah Palin's way of life in pristine Alaska won't continue to be pristine forever. And you consider that a good thing? I think you just want to buck the system, whatever the system brings us. I wish you'd spend as much energy analyzing the activities of this administration in relation to the current economic mess. You really don't have to dig very deep. I was not in favor of Joe Biden for V.P. I was very disappointed that he was the selection - and not because I wanted Hillary - I did not want Hillary either. But the reasons for each are quite different. Joe Biden does a fantastic job in the Senate - we need him there! Hillary, on the other hand, sold out a couple of years ago to the powers that have caused much of our trouble in the world and I just couldn't stomach her anymore. However by comparison, Sarah Palin makes Hillary look like a saint. It's going to be interesting how this financial crisis gets handled. One person suggested (and he has tons of creditibility) that the reason McCain was so silent in the discussions was because the details have already been worked out. He's going to come up with a fabulous-sounding last minute plan that Bush and the Republicans in Congress are going to embrace and make him look like he has a clue in the economic world. Then the populace is supposed to swoon and vote for him. If the American public hasn't gotten a gut full of this administration and its' grotesque antics, they deserve what they get if they vote for them again.

I hope Joe Biden gets the opportunity to kick Sarah Palin's booty. But right now, it doesn't look like they can trust her out in public.

Ahhh, this is the thing that makes for hot political debate. And fortunately we live in a country where we can each and every one have compeltely opposing opinions and more importantly, that we can be as vocal as we want to be about them. You say that Senator Obama "is for" late term abortion and saying that is nothing short of what you accuse me of. To say you've seen a slag pond and equate it to McDonald's wrappers tells me a lot about your ability to do exactly what you accuse me of. And as for Michele Obama... I wonder if you are a black woman of Mrs. Obama's age? No? I'm sure you are not. And you are therefore completely unable to understand what it was like to be Michele Obama growing up. When you are reincarnated and are Michele Obama, then you will be qualified to speak to her opinions and voice on the subject of being raised as a poor black child in America in the 60's. Until then, you sound very prejudiced and you have little credibility. I expect you to vote for McCain. I expect you to vote for Sarah Palin. I couldn't expect anything else from people who speak as you do.

Thanks Watcher for giving me a forum to vent my spleen.

Good for you clusk! That's great that you're getting phycially involved. I was very impressed with the debates last night. It was a clear and defining moment for the choices we have in this election. I know no one likes to hear it, but there is no other way to see it than if we elect McCain, we will be looking at another president who is focused on war, not peace, and one who rewards the greedy fat cats. Instead of inspiring the wealthy corporate fat cats to help this country instead of just helping themselves to whatever they can squeeze out of this country, it would be more of the same under McCain. Even in the debate, he persisted in insulting Obama instead of taking the opportunity to brag on the positive plans he has laid out for the country. That's because he has nothing different to offer. The reason we are in this mess is because of the greed that most of us are guilty of. The men at the top of the heap were already making good money, but they wanted more. So they farmed jobs out, farmed out the automobile work, made loans that they knew shouldn't be made and now it's all come to a head like a giant boil and we're left with the job of trying to do the clean up without sustaining a serious infection that we cannot cure. I believe Senator Barack Obama is smart enough to get the job done. I don't know of anyone else who has a snowball's chance of getting all of this cleared up. Watching the idiots who are running McCain's campaign provides a very clear picture of how lacking on intelligence they are. You can just see them sitting around a table exclaiming how great some new plan of action to discredit Obama is. No one seems to be able to be the devil's advocate and tell them what the results will be if they take that action. I feel sorry for poor old McCain. He's floundering and frustrated and angry and has no way to save himself. I want the Democrats to win, but I wasn't hoping they would win due to some serious incompentency on the part of the Republicans, but they don't seem to be able to help themselves - they're just so used to employing every terrible smear tactic they can think up - and it's always worked before. I'm sure they're feverishly working to come up with something else ugly. Nothing will surprise me. But unfortunately for them, I think the American public finally sees through it and are sick and tired of it.

clusk - Good Job!!! Thanks, I will know where to look now. I hope you're right about the V.P. debate and the effect it will have.

P.S. I don't know if Senator Obama believes in Creationism. I understand that he is a Christian and reads the Bible. But I do know that he doesn't expect each and every American to believe as he does and practice the same religion that he does. I believe that he knows that Americans have the right to choose their own religion and that it does not threaten him in any way for people to practice religions that are different from his own. I hope that he recognizes the importance of the separation of Church and State. I wish that more people understood the importance of the separation of Church and State and stopped thinking that people who have different beliefs are bad and going to hell and I also wish that people understood that putting "In God We Trust" on our money doesn't have any affect whatsoever on how we live our lives in this country and it doesn't reflect whether we are good people or bad people. Furthermore I do not believe that our military does not respect Senator Obama. That's one of the Republican player tactics that just doesn't sit well with me. I know many more members of the military who support Senator Obama than who share the views of George Bush and John McCain. Sure, war gives them a chance to make more money and go higher up the ladder, but the ones I know are not stupid. They know how depleted our resources are and how beaten down our military is. They know how bad this war has been and how wrong we were to have waged this war. To say that our military is stupid and doesn't repsect Senator Obama is pretty nasty indeed.

What, what, what? Christianity is discriminated against in the U.S.? Are you kidding? Most of us are Christians. They do not teach other religions in our public schools. If you think they do, I'd be interested in seeing evidence of that. Uh yeah, I'd guess from your posts that you and Palin share similar beliefs. I certainly have no problem with that. But I don't want either one of you leading this country and insisting that the rest of us live by your religious belief system. Palin did go to the librarian and ask her what the steps were to have books removed from the public library. Her motives are possibly what are debatable, but she did request the information and it does smack of censorship. If you can't control your children's reading material, that shouldn't cause everyone else in America to only read children's books or Bibles. That's just convoluted thinking to say that books that you find objectionable should be banned from public libraries. You should ban objectionable books from your home. But you should have the freedom to read books that come from all over the world and that present varied interpretations and representations so that you can learn. If you are only permitted to read the Bible, how can you understand other religions? How can you understand your religious enemies? If you have principles and morals and strong religious beliefs, books that you find objectionable cannot harm you. They can make you stronger and more informed and worldly and intelligent. Do you really not understand this? I believe that we should all own guns. I believe that we should be issued guns at age 18 and be made to take proficiency tests and have regular target practice. We should be able to carry concealed weapons. Hopefully the smartest and best will take down the dumbest and worst in society and then many of our problems will be solved. Actually I say that somewhat facitiously, but I earnestly believe that if we all knew we were all armed, it might stop some of the bad people taking advantage of the weaker people. Guns are real euqalizers, aren't they? Except in the case of gun toters vs. animals. Oil drilling does pollute. I don't care how many oil wells your daddy owns. I grew up in a state whose largest commodity was oil. Everybody had one someplace on their property, if they were lucky. Oil wells are polluters - ever seen a slag pond? Ever seen an oil slick? To say that they are perfectly safe these days and that they don't pollute is naive. And none of us is ignorant to the fact that Alaskan residents want oil drilling in Alaska because it stands to make them rich. Just like many homeowners want gas companies to drill on their land even when they don't own the mineral rights. They stand to make easy money on the surface rights. Greed can cause lots of actions that aren't beneficial to our health and wellbeing. To further support the unbelievably rich oil companies by allowing them the kind of drilling they want, is completely stupid. But of course if you own oil companies or oil wells or have any investment in keeping us oil dependent, then I get your point. And by the way, I'd like someone to tell us where they heard the rumor that there are conservatives who want Palin to drop out of the race too. That sounds like the kind of stuff that Republicans usually put out to undermine Demos. Well since it's a tactic that is proven to work for Republicans, why shouldn't the Democrats do it? At this point, I think they're pretty frustrated that they're reaping some of what they sow. And that's a good thing.

I am not putting words in anyone's mouth. People can read. I only wrote what you wrote. Tell you what...I won't accuse you of putting words in my mouth either, okay? Although you may have interpreted what I wrote differently than I intended. But what's the big deal? You made a comment about how people should choose a candidate and vote - I responded with a question about why you think McCain chose Palin. 'Cause his choice sure seems to coincide with your observations about how people may choose a candidate. If people elect a person they think can do the job, what difference does it make if it is a "first" or not? That is the question. I can't imagine why anyone would vote for someone just because it hasn't been done before. But perhaps you're right. And if you are, that would be just wrong, like you said. Still with me?

Btw, I don't have a problem with Palin believing in creationism and God. I just disagree that hers, or any religion should be taught in our public schools. Can you tell me how teaching Christianity in our public schools is different from Muslims teaching their religion in their schools? Oh yes, I know that the Muslim religion is different from Christianity, but endoctrinating young children with a belief system that is chosen by our government is not what I believe most Americans want or expect their elected leaders to accomplish while in office. That is not the only extremely right wing, narrow-minded objective that Palin has in her arsenal of political goals and there are quite a few more that I disagree with. In fact, I am against everything she stands for. If I ever could have voted for John McCain (as I thought I might have in the past), having Sarah Palin in line for the presidency is a deal breaker in every way.

I missed the Couric interveiw. I was at sea and only have been able to catch a little Fox and MSNBC for the past 2.5 weeks. They gave Hillary Clinton hell for being so strident. I think Palin deserves to be called on the fact that she's so shrill. I don't agree that she's a nice lady. I think that she is a very effective politician for the constituency she represents. And she scares the hell out of me. But her shrill tone represents her politics quite well as far as I'm concerned. As did Hillary's strident tone. I remember that McCain has a long history of being called on his strident attitude and his quick temper. And being called on it publically hasn't accomplished anything but cause him to soften his tone and hide his temper. He still chose Sarah Palin and that's what counts, isn't it? Hey I apologize if I'm off on some tangent. I should be home taking a nap. But who can sleep with this crazy political race going on? I just don't understand why the extreme right wing feels that it is necessary for our government to represent only them. It reminds me of the Muslim mindset in some ways. Like I said, I'm scared.

Anybody who believes that Senator Obama is running "just to fulfill some historical token just to have a 'first'", please stand up. TB, is that also why you think McCain chose Sara Palin - just to fulfil some historical token, just to have a "first"? Is McCain going to step up to the plate and face the public, oppostite Senator Obama tomorrow night, or will he continue to talk out of both sides of his mouth like he's been doing? Honestly, I don't know what the people running his campaign are thinking. I am definitely beginning to feel embarassed for the guy. I've felt sorry for him for quite a while, but now it's downright embarrassing. Has anyone besides me noticed that the people who are most critical of his age, are older people? I wonder why that is? Actually I don't wonder. I know why that is. We know, first hand, how much people change and the abilities that are compromised when one gets past about age 60 or so. Maybe this explains what is going on with that campaign.

I don't know where you got the story about Palin asking the librarian how to ban a book because someone's child brought home a objectional reading material, but I believe it was a story put out by the Republican party to try to make Palin's views seem more acceptable and mainstream. I saw the Librarian interviewed in person and watched her tell the real story about what happened. Don't be taken in by the political spin-masters. Palin doesn't believe in evolution, believes that creationism should be taught in schools, believes that the chant "drill, drill, drill" is a perfect one for America. She's about as far right wing as she can get. I will do everything in my power to keep her from becoming the Vice President of the United States of America... land of the free, home of the brave.

Missygordon: You're absolutely right! His V.P. pick certainly has revitalized his campaign! And you're also right, IMHO, that all of these hot topics are open for debate. It is very refreshing to discuss things with a McCain backer and NOT have them disparage Obama. Good for you. I used to be much more magnanimous toward McCain, but after having felt the sting of how his campaign has been run, I believe that Senator Obama backers have to step up to the plate and respond to the accusations and misstatements. It is also encumbent upon us to point out the times when the Republicans have been talking out of both sides of their mouths. And lately, that has been all too often. I agree that the debates should reveal a lot and clarify a lot and that is as it should be. Yes Jack, I used to be a McCain supporter.

Well Jack I have been very happy with Senator Obama's performance in the Senate. His voting record reflects very intelligent and forward thinking rationale. As for McCain's voting record and the things he has ascribes to now that he is dancing to the tune of the right wing Republicans instead of behaving like the maverick he says he is, go competely against my beliefs. So voting for McCain is not an option. As for the 3 Surpreme Court Justices that Bush appointed, you Stevegoad, must agree with their decisions and opinions because for the most part I do not and I believe that those 3 appointments will have huge ramafications for our future. Some of the comments that have come out of that court in the past couple of years are downright assinine. And MissyGordon, don't get me started. The most recent and obvious sell outs are his V.P. pick (and that one is pretty huge), his recanting how he believes government should behave regarding Roe v. Wade, his embracing most of the policies of the Bush administration, etc. Either he was fooling us before or he's fooling us now. Either way, I'm done with him. As far as I'm concerned, I agree with whoever said that he would have been better off to step aside instead of running for president this go 'round. There's no question that people would have loved to build a monument to his military service and government service. Perhaps now, not so much.

Jack most Republicans would have us believe that Democrats want a welfare, socialist system. That is just not true. The fact that Congressional members have incentives to set up programs that we call "pork barrel spending" and the lobbyists have sufficiently incentivized our Congress to pass laws that will benefit them, doesn't mean that the taxes we pay aren't needed or often used for the good of all of us. The fact that we have bad government programs doesn't mean that we shouldn't have ANY government programs. The fact that we have corrupt government officials doesn't mean that we shouldn't work to run our country in such a way that is good for the masses instead of the few. I don't believe that things are being done properly across the board and that's a big reason why we need decent leadership. We need people who know the difference between good government programs and bad ones and have the fortitude to do something about it. Contrary to the Reagan quote about all government being bad, the government actually does do a whole lot of good for this country. We can't do without it. But we can improve it. It is interesting that so many people complain about having to pay taxes, but they all want a safe infrastructure, good schools, parks for their children, clean air and water and no bums on the streets begging for a handout everytime they leave a building. They want this country to stay on the cutting edge of technology, have a massive military that is second to none, be able to depend on our mail system, and on and on. How do they expect these things to be paid for, donation? The reason you don't get what I'm about is perhaps because you don't understand someone with a social conscience. I love this country. I want this country to improve and to be the most powerful nation in the world. I want our country to take care of its own, not have people who don't know how to read or write. I want people to be able to have all the advantages that modern medicine offers, right here in their own country. We shouldn't have to go to countries like Mexico and Canada to get affordable medicine and medical care. I don't want socialized medicine anymore than you do, but the Democrats didn't single handedly get us into this mess. Insurance companies, pharmaceutical companies and insane lawyers have certainly contributed to that. And as for Jimmy Carter, I thought Republicans all thought he was a singularly worthless president who was unable to get anything done. At least that's what I've heard most often about President Carter. You and I will obviously never agree on what is good for this country. But isn't it great that we can discuss our differences and vote for people who are as far apart politically as McCain and Senator Obama. God Bless America. (America, the land of the free and home of the brave and the country that our taxes built.)

I think many of us can claim to be independent when it comes to comparing the two major parties. We all want to believe that we can think for ourselves. None of us wants to believe that we are taken in by the politicians and political pundits. But right now, after the events and politics of the past 8 years, I don't believe that we can not take sides. This is a crucial time in America's history - at least in my lifetime. The conservatives have gone much further in their suggestions of what they think is good for America than ever before. They want to impose their religious beliefs on every American, no matter what. I believe that our only hope out of this mess and our only hope against hope that it won't continue as it is or even get worse, is to vote for Senator Obama. Because I believe that Senator Obama is one of the most imtelligent people to ever have run for president (in my lifetime) and I think that he has as his goal an intent to treat all Americans fairly. Fairness has been lacking in our government over the past 8 years and that is unforgivable in a country that claims to offer freedom and democracy for its' citizens. What we need is a president who actually cares about all of the people in this country, not just the ones who have money and power. And John McCain does not offer that to us. He has obviously sold out to the powerful, biased people running the Republican party. It isn't that we just need any old Democrat to get things working well again. We need a man like Senator Obama. I hope that you will consider voting for him, after you learn what he really intends to do, not what the Republicans claim that he intends to do. Let's put someone in the White House who is intelligent and who will represent all of us, not just some of us.

The Republican theory of trickle down economics just absolutely does not work. Look at our economy right now and tell me that giving tax breaks to large corporations works for all Americans. It does not work. It works to make the greedy corporate big wigs wealthier. We have seen this over and over when Republicans are in control and allow the lobbyists to run the place. What I'm talking about... what Senator Obama is talking about... is FAIRNESS. We're not talking about unfairly taxing corporations! That's Republican mumbo jumbo. We're talking about the rich paying their fair share instead of middle class playing more than their fair share. Sure the Democrats usually wind up raising taxes. But it is not because they are socialists - as you suckers would have people believe. It is because by the time they get back in office, they have to get the country back on track after having a ruinous Republican president. check out your history books. I don't have to - I've lived through it time and again. As for President Bush's father, the first President Bush, remember what he said, "no new taxes"? And he had to eat his words publically - he did raise taxes - because he had no choice. At least the first President Bush had a conscience, and his conscience is called Barbara. When was the last time any business that you frequent has cut their prices because their costs went down??? Get serious. I can't believe that you think that by paying their fair share of taxes, it will be bad for you and me. Please, stop listening to Rush Limbaugh and his ilk. They will lie to you and tell you that their "truth" was given to them in a vision by the Lord Himself. I have little tolerance for people who are bald-faced liars like Rush Limbaugh. And Jack, I do not get my information from the DNC. I get my information from real life experiences and knowledge. I don't depend on any politician to tell me what to believe about the economy. I am impressed that you are wealthy enough to be comfortable with the Republican way of life. Truthfully, I am too. But I have a conscience and I know what is fair.

Obama came out and said that their kids are off limits. I agree. However, I will talk about the fact that Palin is totally against sex education in school; against the distribution of condoms. If she's an example of how well abstinence works, we better all be convinced that teaching abstinence is what doesn't work. So she's wrong on that. Could it be more obvious how wrong she is? She wanted to know how to get rid of "objectional" books in the public library of the town where she was elected mayor. The townspeople were outraged. So she went about learning how to win the voters back. She learned that they were upset about their property taxes. So she lowered their property taxes... which sounds good, right? Well, she lowered the property taxes but raised the sales tax. They're effectively paying just as much in taxes as before and it hits them every single day when they buy anything in that little town. And to add insult to injury, she also lowered the taxes on corporations. She has a hockey playing son, right? this hockey mom... Well, she decided that the people would love a hockey rink in town. So she went about doing just that, building a hockey rink. She promised the people that it would be working in the black in a few years. Well, it's still operating in the red with no end in sight. She's against a woman's right to choose. She thinks that the government should always, in every single case, intervene when a woman discovers that she has become pregnant against her wishes. She insists that every single woman must have every single child that they is impregnated with, every single time, no matter what. Let me ask you, if you found that you, or your spouse if you're a guy, was pregnant and bearing a seriously malformed baby, one that had no chance at surviving, or if it did survive, that it would be seriously handicapped and a serious burden on you, your finances, the rest of your family and that you would not be given a choice whether or not to have that child, but that you ABSOLUTELY MUST BY LAW, bring that child into this world, do you think that it is right for the government to have that kind of control over your life? And am I the only person who understands that bringing a child like that into the world is selfish beyond belief; to bring a child... a seriously malformed child with no chance of having anything close to a normal existence... into the world to suffer, just because you want it or you think that the government has the right to compel that that child be brought into the world? She's all for drilling in Alaska. The reason? For your gas bill - oh no, not on your life, it's not about your gas bill. It's about the money it will bring to her and the citizens of Alaska. It won't lower your gas bill - at least not for a very, very long time from now. It will, however provide more profit for the oil companies and for the what, 600,000+ ?, people in Alaska. And the pristine environment of Alaska be damned. It's none of our business what they do with Alaska. The citizens of Alaska should be the only ones who get to decide what happens in that state. Yeah, right. If they want to buy it back, they should make an offer. but they shouldn't expect to pay what Seward paid, okay? She's a prize pick for the Republicans. Not the everyday working class variety of republicans, but the elite, wealthy, powerful Republicans. The ones who are going to benefit from another 4 years of corporate greed. Yeah, it sure makes sense all right. You go John McCain.

I've just read the last few posts and I'm shocked! I thought everyone had learned the truth about Obama by now. It's been all over the news and in every paper you can pick up. All the lies that have been published about him being a muslim and having "questionable" ties, etc., were lies put out by the Karl Roves of this country. Read more, learn more, don't accept the Republican right wing propaganda - some of which is referenced above. If you believe the lies it tells me that you aren't wanting to know the truth - you're wanting to believe the guilt propaganda that the Repblicans use to make you do their will. Well, why wouldn't it work on you, it works in the core of our country, our churches. Doesn't the fact that they lied, used bald faced lies published in full page ads in important newspapers about John Kerry, convince you of what the extremists in the Republican party are capable of? John Kerry actually did serve his country and actually did receive medals that he fully deserved for his heroic deeds during the Vietnam war. How you can condone those people doing what they did to a true American hero is beyond me, and that behavior should be considered grounds for imprisonment as far as I'm concerned. Instead you people jump on their bandwagon and lap up their dishonesty and call it being patriotic. You embrace the Republican party when they pull the ridiculous tactic of appointing an extremist right wing person to the Vice Presidency. If Amerians don't stand up against this kind of evil political manuvering, I will be not only surprised, I will be devastated. The Republicans have done all they can to capitalize on the fact that Americans were raised on guilt. They use that very tactic against you. They cause you to want to join in their efforts because they've convinced you that abortion is evil and that if you don't agree, surely God will strike you down in this life or the next. In order to get their people elected, they've used this single issue to infiltrate our Churches and have even our priests and ministers to try to convince you they are good and right and that you should vote for them. Why can't you see that they are greedy, greedy, people who want to control things so that they can continue to make the enormous sums of money that they've made throughout the past 8 years. They are panicked not because they fear Obama or how he was raised, or even that he doesn't think that the government should involve itself in the abortion issue. They are panicked because if Obama is elected, he will do all he can to stop the huge subsidies to mega-wealthy oil companies and other corporations that they benefit from. He will do all he can to ensure that they pay their fair share of taxes instead of having that tax burden fall on you. YOU! (Unless you make more than $250,000 a year - and then you'd still only be expected to pay your fair share instead of getting the tax breaks the wealthy citizens have enjoyed under Bush) They use guilt. They question our patriotism. They use fear. And you people think it is about those emotional issues. It isn't. It is about greed. Do you know that Exxon Oil has made more profits in this past year than any company in the history of the world? And you're paying more at the pump. And your Republican President backs the oil companies' plans for more and more drilling with a token effort at researching alternative plans for oil independence. As for McCain being a maverick. Yeah, choosing Palin looked a little off from the norm, but you know as well as I that she was chosen for him. And the maverick McCain that once was, is no more. He's sold out and sold out big. If you want change (and I perhaps many of you do not), then you shouldn't vote for McCain. He was a big part of the reason things have been done the way they have been done in Congress for many years. To think that at age 72 the man is going to bring about big changes is just unrealistic. But if you don't do anything else, learn the truth about Obama. Stop believing the scare mongers and the dishonest people who only seek to fool you. They do not have your best interests at heart.

Jack mentioned the Constitution. If we believe in the Constitution and what it represents to us as citizens in our "free" country, you better think twice about voting Republican in this presidential election. In fact, you better think long and hard about it. This administration has abridged our Contitutional rights in so many ways they are too numerous to list. And John McCain who wants us to think of him as a "maverick" could have only been considered a maverick prior to his running for president this time. Now he has fully embraced all of the things that the Republicans have pushed for and put into effect and want to put into effect that are what I consider to be extreme right wing. There's no middle road here to consider. He's had to agree to all the terms and conditions of the right wingers in the party or he wouldn't have been able to get the support and money of those people in the party - and they are the ones who are in control and have been for years. His running mate was hand-picked for that job and she is far more right wing than McCain used to claim to be. Now they join arm-in-arm to work toward drilling for oil in Alaska and off-shore everywhere they can, abolish Roe V. Wade (women's right to choose), strengthen people's rights when it comes to owning all kinds of guns (she's a strong supporter of the NRA), and the list goes on and on. The thing you must ask yourselves even if you do think that McCain is your man (because he is a maverick?), what if John McCain dies? Do you want this woman to be in charge of the White House, our Armed Forces, the EPA, Education, and all of the other branches of the government that answer to the President? The Republicans want you to think that because she was governor, she is uniquely qualified to run for president and furthermore, that she is MORE qualified than Senator Obama. If you buy that, then you are probably just as right wing as those who chose her. What all this tells us is that we have very clear choices this year. There's no middle ground to be had. Vote Liberatarian if you choose, but know that your vote has no chance of changing anything. If you want change, your only hope is Senator Obama. The man is extremely intelligent and I believe that he has the backing of enough people who want the same kind of change, that he can and will get us out of this horrible mess that we are in as a country. As for Obama being backed by the lobbyists, you can think again. He has had some backing by some moneyed people, but the millions of dollars he has raised in this campaign have been donated by millions of regular people, one dollar or five dollars at a time. It is unprecdented at this time in our nation's history for a person to be able to get the kind of support that this man has. Most of us have only known of presidential and other political races to be run by huge donations by special interest groups. As for the jerk, above, who is insinuating that someone will be brazen enough and dishonest enough and evil enough to do away with Senator Obama, he better hope that it never comes to that. If someone does that, Americans will not put up with it this time. They've made it work in the past, when there were good intelligent people who also wanted change in this country, by shooting them but I honestly do not think we will put up with it anymore. A public stoning comes to mind. And all ya'll who complain about the idea that President Obama will raise your taxes, you have to admit that if McCain gets elected, taxes will also be raised. There's no choice at this point. The Republicans have spent and over-spent and depleted the surplus that Clinton left. There's no choice about paying for this war where we've spent a billion dollars every week. And that's not the only place where the Republicans have over-spent and over-committed us - they keep giving tax cuts and incentives to huge corporations, like the oil companies, and that has to be repaid as well. If you're buying into the age old notion that the Democrats (Obama) plan to expand welfare programs, you aren't listening. Senator Obama wants to incentivize Americans to WORK not collect welfare. Stop listening to what the Republicans say and do your research. I think you'll be surprised at how fair he wants to make things in this country. At least you'll be surprised if you are aware of how unfair things are in this country right now. I won't apologize for the lengthy post this time. You all opened the door to all this stuff, it's your fault.... Har-de-har-har-har. :smile:

Hey plain, that was a great explanation of your thoughts on the matter. I respect your opinion. I know that the Republicans have always run on the platform of less government. Unfortunately under the current administration, the government has become much, much bigger and more intrusive into our lives. Sure I understand the reasoning - it's been due to the terrorist threat, but I absolutely hate it because I know that it goes totally against what the country was founded on and what I personally believe in - and it's against the law. One of my chief gripes about this administration has been that they say they are all for one thing, but that is not the course of action that they take. And everyone seems to be oblivious to it. I don't think that the media finds much mileage in reporting on that and besides it can be pretty complicated and detailed. I do think that the Karl Roves of this political group have ruined it for people like you who like what the Republians stand for (or stood for) but they have bastardized it all and have gyped good Republicans out of what they think they're voting for. All this is IMHO, of course. My DH sees it differently for the most part, although there's no disagreement about how the government has been made more expansive under this administration. I agree with you though that keeping as much as possible at the state level, we have a better chance of getting what we want. I don't want to pay for anybody's sex change operation, no matter what state they live in. I don't think anybody wants to pay for my cosmetic surgery either. And btw, trickle down economics is voodoo as far as I'm concerned. Have you counted the number of billionaires that we have in this country now? Do you know why our economy has produced so many new billionaires in the past few years? Does it make any sense in light of what has happened to the regular working folks economic status? So far, it ain't trickling down, it's shooting up. Ok now I have to apologize for the long-winded post. Well by now you know when I sit down at the computer, I just type out whatever I'm thinking and it's encumbent upon you all to just look away!!! :biggrin: P.S. TheWatcher: I enjoyed that line of Senator Obama's tonight too. But my favorite had to be from the regular guy, Barney Smith who said he wants a goverment that cares more about Barney Smith instead of Smith Barney. Har.

Well I'll be doggone plain. That's the smartest thing I've seen you write. His speech was awesome, I don't care what your party affiliation or even your country. That man can deliver a speech like nobody's business. I hope he gets the chance to prove that he can deliver on his promises as well. I know Jack... you think that he has a snowball's chance of doing any of those things for us, but geez, we gotta try for it! We can't keep on this way. Unless you're a wealthy person, how can you vote for the Republican candidates this time? I feel like the bad guys have highjacked the Republican party and it has become some kind of monster that has run away from all of the values the party once stood for. Oh they say that they still believe in those things, but they do not operate that way. My trust for any of the Bush supporters (and McCain is one) has long gone by the wayside. Thank goodness someone inspirational and uplifting is offering something that we can be feel united with. How refreshing after 8 long years! :biggrin: