BJean

L8Bloom: That is a fantastic story and I think you all are fantistic for getting people together and helping save a life! It is just this kind of thing that I believe is the only real way to stop abortions. I don't know anyone who is "pro-abortion". I do know lots and lots of people who believe that making abortion a crime is not the answer to solving this very difficult problem. Keep up your good work in helping save women's lives and giving the gift of life to babies!

The reason so many from both parties voted for the bail out is because things are in such dire straits we had to take action. Have you taken a look at what other countries are doing? Are you angry with everybody in the entire world? Do you honestly think that this situation will right itself? John McCain doesn't talk a lot about his real plans for us. He mostly puts his spin on Senator Obama's plans. When you dissect McCain's plans, he is all about keeping us where we are right now only he's want to give even more tax breaks to large corporations. McCain says that Obama's plan will not create jobs. That is exactly the opposite of what is true. Jobs have not been created by making corporations wealthier - the money absolutely has not trickled down and more jobs were not created for Americans. Americans' jobs are being shipped overseas because of greedy corporations. And Obama doesn't want to impose more tax on corporations than is fair... he only wants to roll back the enormous tax breaks that Republicans have given them during this administation. The housing market has gone paws up because lenders became more and more greedy and devised loans that they knew people couldn't afford, but were so enticing that people went for them. And btw in the past, people's salaries increased over the years and they could eventually make their house payments when the interest rate on their adjustable mortgages went up. Salaries aren't seeing those kinds of increases and people are being laid off. And people want to blame home buyers for the entire housing bust? If the Congress had not done something to come to the rescue, you'll be screaming (as would McCain) that the Democrats weren't willing to try to fix the mess. You said we don't have a good choice for president and that is the most important exception to your post that I have. We have an excellent choice for President: Senator Obama! He is one of the most intelligent men we've had run for president in many, many years. He is capable of accomplishing a turn around on most of the terrible problems that the Republicans have given us. That is, if he has enough support in Congress to make it work. Some presidents have been capable in the past, but were stymied by a Congress that fought them all the way. We need to throw out all the people in the White House and clean up the Congress and if that happens I think you'll be surprised at how good things can be again.

gadget you are great at locating links for us. Can you find the link showing Obama saying that the first thing he will do is sign the Freedom of Choice Act? Since I believe that this question of women's rights is the core of this issue, I believe that if he does take that action, it is probably right and good. Although I do admit that I have not seen the FOCA proposed legislation.

gadget you very eloquently proved my point. It looks like there are some people who do appreciate hearing it. They probably have not had the benefit of hearing it so many times like I have. If you have won some people over to join in your fight to save lives, I commend you. My hope is that no one mistakes me for being what you label as "pro-abortion" - and I hope that if people are anti-abortion they do not mistake that for being anti-choice. There is a place for all of us - IF and only IF one side does not move to take away the rights of the other side here at this debate.

I thank God that there are finally people who are blowing the whistle on the corruption and dishonesty behind the Republican wins in the past elections and blowing the whistle on the possibility of more of the same this year. Maybe all Americans have a chance of having their votes counted and their voices heard - that would be something that I believe every Christian fair-minded person in this country should be thankful for. I appreciate you calling attention to the very real possibility that this year will present the same or more challenges that have happened in the past. Exposure is the best way to meet these challenges and begin the arrest and prosecution of people like we had to prosecute publically in the Nixon administration. Corruption in our politics and the lop-sided policies that favor the very wealthy in this country must stop. If they don't, the country that we have known and loved and the ideals that this country is based on are fast coming to an end. The greed has become so pervasive in our government and in our corporations in America, that the things we have taken for granted are failing and collapsing all around us. If Americans can't understand why we need to readjust our focus in this country, then they will elect John McCain. I hope we are smarter than that. I am so grateful to the men and women who have come out and endorsed Senator Obama who are Republicans, heads of corporations and some of the top military personnel. It has taken a lot of courage and soul-searching for them to buck the system and stand up for what they know is right. Those are the leaders that we need. They, along with Senator Obama can make the kinds of changes that will rebalance the power in America. We need people who care about our country more than they care about their pocketbooks. We need people who love and respect their neighbors, people who are willing to go to bat for all Americans, not just the few who sit on the top of the corporate heap sucking this country dry. The "October Surprise" is quickly emerging this morning. Some of the wealthiest Americans are going to come out of the woodwork and tell us that without the Republicans at the helm, they predict a depression. Well my fellow Americans (as your hero McCain likes to say), they already have brought us to the brink of disaster. We are going to have to scramble like crazy if we are going to pull us out of this before we find ourselves without some of the most basic things that we take for granted. And Senator Obama and his new administration are our best hope for that. Certainly not more of the same greedy people in Washington or the pharmacutical companies running us, the insurance companies running us, the oil companies running us and the greedy wall street guys manipulating the market.

If she hasn't answered your questions, gadget, how could you possibly know if her answers are different from mine in any way? You are looking for opportunities to load up your ammunition and fire away. She may be new enough to this debate that she doesn't know that, but I have a feeling that she does know it and, like many others, is not willing to give you that opportunity. Nighty nite.

Lucky you Canadians, eh! gadget, we must find a middle ground in this country. A middle ground that allows for tolerance and understanding and compromise. A way for us to get along, if you will. What is the alternative? A state of war? You believe that people want some kind of civil war? Are we no better than some of the countries that have attacked each other in the streets, practiced ethnic cleansing and imprisoned people for having different beliefs and different religions? Those countries where we have intervened and spent our money and our lives trying to help them learn how to live with each other... you expect that in this country? The Republicans have had control of this country for actually over 8 years. It has brought our economy down, it has driven our national debt out of sight, it has caused our country to be at war once again in a far off nation that has cost American lives and American taxpayer dollars for no sane reason. It is time for a change. You need to allow others to try their hand at running things and allow them time to prove that they can take the kind of action that will get this country healthy again. If you can't allow that, we are sunk as a democratic nation.

It's just this kind of rudeness that makes people not want to discuss this with you, gadget. I never once have said anything about a woman being "inconvenienced" by a pregnancy. That is your nastiness coming out. Just because you think that's how people feel who may have to choose to have an abortion, doesn't mean you know what the heck you're talking about. Your lack of compassion and understanding of the very shattering components of a woman finding out that she is pregnant when she did not plan for it, and cannot support it, is expected but still shocking. Your harshness is one of the reasons you won't win this argument. That's one of the major problems with the anti-choice movement. Your use of certain language and your insistence that no one's beliefs are valid if they are different from yours is just the stuff that makes people think twice when reading your propaganda. I finished with this for tonight. Don't worry though, tomorrow I'll find more time to devote to this space.

Thanks for your response, Jack. I completely agree with your point that the news media are biased. I can't remember exactly when that fact first starting revealing itself to us. But it seems ever so long since we could feel confident that the "news" is purely factual information.

The fertilized egg starts out by being implanted in the woman's tissue. Your "analogy" is flawed.

Because the new argument would be why not allow your fertilized egg be developed in this new contraption. Duh.

Maybe she is away for the weekend. Who knows. The questions that you asked gadget, have been answered by a number of people over the very long course of debate on this subject. Each and every time someone does take the time to answer those questions, and the answers are not ones that you can fully appreciate, they are attacked and there is post after post with links of everything from bloody photos to raging theories on how slavery is just the same as abortion. Why should anyone at this point wish to get into that with you?

If the media reported something that did not actually happen, then they should be more careful. However I watched that portion of the rally and what I heard someone yell was, kill him. I have also seen footage of other rallies where people shouted scary things. The Palin rallies in particular have been inciting that kind of anger from people. She knows that her smarmy delivery and sarcasm and exaggeration of the truth and accusatory comments, all while she is grinning, are encouraging bad behavior on the part of her supporters. Has she taken any responsbility for it? No. Has John McCain? No. In interviews with a couple of different reporters, they fiercely deny that they are lying or stretching the truth or inciting to riot. Palin has continued that same delivery and the same smarmy statements, over and over even today. She seems to delight in it, even appearing to stifle an outright giggle when she gets a really negative reaction from the crowd. It really makes it clear what kind of person she is. It makes it clear what kind of core this woman has in the center of her being. And if someone did take a shot at someone running in this race, I have a feeling she would secretly embrace it as an accomplishment of her own. I don't think she or McCain or their handlers care one whit about pulling this country together after this election. To them, this is war and the only plan is to win at any cost. Damn the people, damn the country and hurl anything at the enemy that just might cause one voter to cast a vote for them. What do you suggest gadget, to unite this country after the election if Senator Obama and Senator Biden are elected? What would you do to convince people that we need to work together even though we may be disappointed that our man/woman didn't win? Maybe that would be a good thread starter. How can we united everyone to work for the good of the country after the election is over - no matter which side wins!

As for late term abortions, my opinion is that it is a matter between a woman and her medical practioner. I would never be able to make a medical decision like that for another person. And you shouldn't be making them for others either. If you wish to be influencial in helping another woman make a decision like that, it is your business. You don't seem to have any trouble telling others what is right and what is wrong with the way medicine is practiced today. And that is your perrogative - it is well within your rights to make your opinions known. But I object to your desire to pass a law that makes it illegal for women to make their own decisions when it comes to late term abortions or any other decision that involves a woman's reproductive organs.

Seriously gadget? Seriously? You equate a man's penis in a vagina and a person's finger in a woman's mouth to be in any way similar to a fertilized egg in a woman's womb? For heaven's sakes. No wonder there's such a huge disconnect between those of us who support women's rights and your wish to take them away. For you, it is a very simple thing. The complexity of the issue as well as the basic biology of the issue seems to be lost on you. I am sincerely amazed and mystified.

Ok gadget. I apologize for assuming that your questions were questions you were using to bait Losingjusme so that you could counter whatever her answers were with the same kind of propaganda that you have used for months, (or is it years?), on the other thread. They somehow just sounded so very familiar. I am sorry that I didn't recognize that you were genuinely in the dark about why a person would feel the way Losingjusme does about the topic of a woman's right to choose. I also apologize to Losingjusme for possibly interrupting the flow of her message. Btw gadget, has anyone told you how much your photo and your words remind them of Sarah Palin? You really do remind me of her. And she's a former beauty queen! Did you ever participate in pagents?

And turns out you all who were arguing that Sarah Palin is no expert on autism were absolutely right. Wonder who fed her the line decrying research using fruit flies?

Why hasn't anyone brought up the subject of who McCain pals around with? His good buddy G. Gordon Liddy was one of the Watergate burglers! Liddy has been guilty of all kinds of subversive activities and his right wing extremism is certainly a matter of record. He was not just accused of the Watergate burglery, he was convicted of the Watergate burglery. He's donated to McCain's campaign, and they are certainly known to be closer associates than Bill Ayers and Senator Obama. As to the question this thread posed, I will go out on a limb and say that if someone assassinates Senator Obama, Americans will tear that terrorist from limb to limb. And the digging will go very deep into organizations that scream succsessionst, anti-government diatribe - like Todd Palin's organization does. And Sarah Palin endorses that organization by her on the record statement that she agrees with them. The reason this possible assassination attempt question came up and is relevant, is because there are so many right wing fanatics in this country who believe that they don't have to pay taxes and they should be able to amass an arsenal of firearms, and who think they're right when they take the law into their own hands (for the good of their cause.) Like committing assassinations and burglery of the opposition party's headquarters. I will be depending on Senator Obama's ability to surround himself with more than just the Secret Service. I hope he will surround himself with the biggest, baddest body guards that he can find. And I hope that he won't take chances and expose himself to the manical terrorists who call themselves partiots. We need Senator Obama. We need someone with his intellligence and calmness and core values to bring this country together. We need someone who, unlike the people in the McCain campaign, will decry ignorant personal asssults and hatred of the government. We need to get on with the business of rebuilding America and seeking peace for the world. We need to be role models for the rest of the world, not the monsters some countries believe we have become.

This has been a great thread for allowing people to voice their opinions without having someone jump in and be confrontational and accusatory and launch into a long lecture about how women are committing murder if they find themselves in the horrible position of needing an abortion. That is until the post before mine. It sounds like the same kind of baiting that happened on the really, really long other thread on this topic. Gadget, if anyone knows the ins and outs of all the arguments and reasoning, both pro and con, it's you.

We've been down that road many times before. A fertilized egg is definitely a part of a woman's reproductive organs. You can't have your way about that. It is not a seperate entity. It will not survive outside the womb, at least until people have gone so far as to duplicate a womb. A fertilized egg depends solely on its' host - a woman's reproductive organs - to survive. If someone invents a contraption that will replace a woman's womb, God forbid, then the argument could change.

If you believe that it is a better world when women have the right to choose and that the government should never have the right to control women's reproductive organs, you should get out and vote for those people who share your beliefs. You should be able to tell by this thread that there are many people who wish to control women's reproductive organs and that they will pretty much stop at nothing to overturn Roe v. Wade and make every women's right to control her own reproductive organs in fact, illegal. We really must let them know, by our votes, that we will not stand for it. That is the crux of this argument, the blood, guts, and extremely obnoxious arguments, notwithstanding.

So who's gonna google and get us the info to back up Jack's claim that Senator Obama wants the draft? And Jack, I know you don't ever claim to be a conservative Republican, but do you know how much money this ultra-conservative Republican administration has given - American taxpayer dollars - to the "government" in Iraq? I believe I heard that they are sitting on something like $70B of American taxpayer dollars. And we know what the actual war is costing us - not only in monetary terms, which is astronomical - but also in American lives. Are you trying to tell me that employing someone to make a box to ship back the bodies in, somehow justifies the money we're spending on this war? I do know that the hardware that we're paying for in this war certainly does provide jobs for not only the military, but also for American workers here at home. It was the same in Vietnam. But when people finally realized what a horrible price we were paying for the war in Vietnam, they got us the hell out. Once McCain learned how anti Iraq war that mainstream America is, he stopped saying he thought we might be there for many more years and now he's saying he'll bring our troops home. He's been as stubborn on the war as George W. Bush has. Who knows, maybe General Powell's remarks helped him out a little on this. And about Acorn, I'd like to know exactly where those of you who think that Acorn is a horrible organization got your information? You obviously heard all of the accusations and negative-speak about it, but have you ever once stopped to find out the truth of what their goals are? Do you have something against getting as many qualified Americans registered to vote as there are qualified Americans?

I'm curious Jack. Did the pickup trucks actually have dangerous gas tanks or was it proven that they were not dangerous?

First, are you denying that the Republicans disenfranchised Democratic voters? Do you deny that in the some of the swing states, they are trying to do it again? And probably in some cases, succeeding. Second, I have checked into Acorn. I'm wondering if you've just listened to what the Republicans have accused them of or if you really know what they're about? Acorn cannot allow anyone to vote or keep anyone from voting. They are only in the business of taking registration applications. They cannot even log registrations onto the election board books. Only the election boards are able to do that. The election boards are the ones who determine whether a candidate is eligible to vote. Certainly not Acorn! If Acorn found that their workers turned in a registration that was questionable, they brought it to the attention of the election boards. They are not allowed to legally throw out a registration that has been taken - whether it is a good one or a bad one. They would not intentionally allow an unqualified person to be registered. An unqualified person cannnot vote, so what would be the point of that? Besides, this finger pointing at Acorn is a diversionary tactic that the Republicans have used to cause people to ignore what they're doing that really does subvert legal voting in America. They are responsible for actually throwing out Americans' votes! And not too surprisingly, they turn out to be Democratic votes. It isn't as simple and obvious as Republicans would have you believe. And this is not something that I'm making up because I am putting out spin or diversionary accusations. I just read more and listen to more than one viewpoint and one-sided research panels. Anyone who does knows that I am right about this. I have no doubt whatsoever that John McCain can win the election. With or without illegal maneuverings. But I do know that the RNC doesn't want to take a chance. And if it were the Democratic party that was pulling this stuff, I would want it to stop! And I would want the perps prosecuted. What we need in this country is an honest election - first and foremost. I would much rather a Republican won if it in some way could ensure an honest election. Unfortunately we know for sure that the Republicans have subverted elections in the past and it looks like they are trying to do it again. None of us should want an illegal election in this country. We are suppose to be a model of democracy. We're supposedly fighting for that in Iraq and Afghanistan. How can we live with knowing Americans have had their votes thrown out by the opposition party?

We all expect it to be close. It is interesting to note that the Republican President and Congress made sure that elections are not handled in a very non-partisan way. The opportunity for this race to wind up like the past two is very high. Not because the Democrats didn't get the majority popular vote, but because the Republicans worked their "magic" to ensure they won the electoral vote. If you aren't aware of how they pull off disenfranchising honest voters, you should find out about it. Chills will run up and down your spine - and if you're a Democrat, you will certainly not miss the opportunity to vote this year.