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Merely living on the land does not confirm ownership. Where do you get the idea that America belonged to the Indians? The white man's record is not clean, but the only land the indians owned is the land they cleared, lived on and cultivated. To suggest that they owned the whole country simply because they rode around it on horseback is pure poppycock. Most, if not all indian tribes did not believe in personal ownership of land. They did not consider a plot of ground theirs to be passed on to a son but ground that was owned by the tribe for the good of all. The same attitude was held toward food. If a brave took a bison or deer in a hunt, it did not belong to him but to the tribe. The shallow thinker says, "That's magnanimous and unselfish." but it is also socialism and could be one reason why the Indians were living substantially the same way when Columbus arrived as they had lived 500 years earlier. Proof

I appreciate you BJ and Cleo. You guys are on top of it all the time. I just jump in when I hear the Fake Noise dog whistle. I get irate when I hear the terrorist, nazi, association angle. Hard enough when you see info posted as fact, but then you also get the rumors, smears and out right lies disguised to the uneducated as facts. The righties are working a full time job trying to discredit the left and specifically Obama. Not necessarily that I agree with everything he does but I do believe he tries to do the right thing most of the time for this country and that is a start for me. The country is going in the generally right direction as far as I can see. I will support him in his agenda to help this country, I will critisize him when he goes in a direction that I feel is terrible for the country, but I will never call him names such has been carelessly throw around to make him seem illegitimate because I don't believe in his agenda or because he seems different like the righties continue to do. Everyone is entitled to their opinion but not their own facts. Problem I have with the right is they want to present facts as truth to deceive the uneducated. We have to make sure we combat that everyday.

Propaganda? Most of us here post facts that are taken from many TV channels and sources. I have never heard the stuff you and PG post except from Limbiscuit, Beck and Bill the clown co-signed by Hannity, which is the original comedy channel, Fake News. Oh, sorry Limb is the righty defacto leader who has his own show. Point being I can go on regular tv, ABC, NBC, CBS and get the straight facts w/out commentary and compare them to my so-called liberal propaganda and they would come out somewhat similiar. Now why is it that 80 channels have slight variations of the same facts, but Fake Noise seems to have the direct opposite darn near all the time when it comes to this so-called regime? Don't run the "a lot of people watch Faux news" mantra. I also watch it for the comedy factor. Lots of people do, just to see how far they can stretch that reality factor and cast their net, yet and still, we liberal propaganda listeners won the election..............

I think you may be right BJ. What are the chances that two people think and post the same Faux News talking points. Then again, I did say Fake has cast a net of voodoo........

Ari said, For the daft; I did not say, nor imply that you ARE the same thing as the people that hang around you, or that you hang around. What I said, and what I mean, is that people judge you, like it or not, they do, right or wrong, thats life, I know I know, you and bj and cm don't but the rest of the world does. Does it make it true? No, does it make it understandable why someone would think a certain way about bo because of the people he chose to surround himself with, yes it does. Now the vast majority of people can make deductions about a person based on things we know and or learn about them, and decide, "okay maybe bo isn't a terrorist, but man he doesn't help his cause hanging out with that person." Now maybe bo doesn't care what anyone thinks about him or the people he hung out with, and thats great, but politics isn't the realm to be in if thats your outlook, because you get judged a lot. No one is daft here. We got what you implied by throwing out the suppositions you did. You made sure those words were parsed. Some people, not you of course, would get the idea he was a socialist by the company he keeps. You would never have said it if you didn't have a belief or inkling that it could be true, otherwise why bring it up? And I say thank goodness, people did research, added some critical thinking skills and saw the BS being spewed by Faux Noise as just that, BS. Great. You never said he was a terrorist, but you still never said he wasn't. I'm taking a stand, why don't you?

Ari said, We'll start with the first paragraph, because you still obviously are not getting what I'm saying. I did not say he is a terrorist, or a socialist, or a communist, BECAUSE of who he socializes with. I said that it is understandable that someone might think those things of him because of who he socializes with. That is the same point I made about you hanging around with certain types of people. I'm not saying that they influence you, I'm saying that they influence how people perceive you. If you either don't see that, or are denying it, you need to wake up. So let me ask you this point blank, yes or no; you see a group of guys standing on a corner, one is visibly selling drugs, do you, or do you not assume that they all are either drug dealers or drug users because of who you see them socializing with? Or are you so enlightened that you think "well, the one in the middle is a drug dealer but the other four are probably upstanding citizens, businessmen probably just hanging out with a friend who is a drug dealer." As for the other part. No I don't know what he meant by that statement, and given that he's talking about has raised taxes for the rich to support the poor, I'm gonna stick with the socialist style politics. That's not saying he's a full on socialist,(also not saying he's not)because he hasn't done anything policy wise to that affect yet. But he is taxing the rich to pay for the poor. I got your point. I pal around with terrorist, I am a terrorist is your point. You said you never called him any of those things but you darn sure implied it. And no, I don't automatically think when I see one guy passing drugs in a group that they all pass drugs. I think, they condone it, that the guy passing drugs is their freind, or its something to do, that despite their friend selling frugs they still want to talk to them and associate with them, not necessarily that they do it. And since you don't get the spread the wealth comment, no other comment needs to be made. You're on that side and I am on this one, and never the twain shall meet. Disheartning. and baseless

Ari said Van Jones is a self confessed communist. At what time did this person influence Obama about his life philosophy, opinions and life compass? Some green leaf guy in his administration did this? A guy who said he was a commuist, nationalist, then renounced it as his views changed, years ago? On top of that, when did Obama meet this guy,that this guy would cast communistic thought on Obama and what he thought? What you said was; Obama is a communist because he gave a job to a green guy who used to be a self proclaimed communist years ago, thus Obama is a communist. Do you know how loony that sounds to rational people?Apparently you don't since you keep saying it. Baseless rhetoric and this fact is disheartning that there are people who make these gigantic leaps in thought to the other side of reality. Disheartning. There is no middle ground, just air, dude.

Ari, don't give me Fake Noise talking points. I and the majority of americans have heard them and they don't hold water. That is why we won, they hold NO water. I got all your points and as stated earlier, the leap is just too far for rational thought. Just because I spend time with people and they talk crazy does not mean I am crazy or prone to thoughts of craziness. That is your argument. Since he spent time with Aires, he must think like Aires, BS. I have family members that talk crazy all the time and I see them at least once a week and they have never influenced my thought about subjects. I have a childhood friend who is a drug dealer and I run across him at least once a week, probably one of the biggest in my city but he has never influenced my thought about doing drugs, selling drugs or anything else. Your argument holds no water. I like diverse thought and people who do not always think like myself. I have been a counselor in jail, shelters for years and yet, these people have never influenced my thought to turn my thoughts from what I was raised with. And a guy I sat on the board with maybe once a month, a guy who came to parties I had which I didn't have every week, a guy who lived in my neighborhood and said hi to when we happen to be outside with, does not change my way of thought and what is right and wrong from what my parents taught me. If a person thinks that Aires had that much influence and that people like Aires would have that kind of influence on them, then I say the moral compass has been dropped in the woods, long time ago. From what I understand he had great role models and grandparents that influenced him and thus the argument that a man he met when he was in his late 30's could have a radical influence on Obama, is ludicris to me and most of america. He wanted to spread the wealth around. Don't play dumb. You know what he meant by that. The rich got richer under Bush. Time for the middle class to get the same breaks. That is what he was talking about and you know it. Baseless. As stated earlier, the leap is too great, I cant catch that other side and most people weren't able to make that leap either, thank goodness. Just because you can say it, doesn't make it true. Give me stuff that I can get to the other side with. Baseless.

Ari says, Very convenient. You don't care what they said then, but now, oh boy. He does have socialist style policies he'd like to bring forward. And he's surrounded himself with admitted socialist and communist, and people who are terrorist. So if someone calls him those things, it's not entirely surprising. If you hang out with a certain group of people it's quite likely you'll be associated and called whatever it is that they are ie liberals, conservative, gangster, rocker etc. etc. I didn't say Bush's name calling was irrelevant. As I stated, I saw the leap people made for calling him a terrorist by taking us to war for little or no reason. I can see how the leap was made, not that I subscribed to it. I never called him a terrorist. I was actually proud of Bush for a minute even though I never voted for him. I soon found out that pride was misplaced with the deception that followed to get us there, but never called him names except a liar. 1.What socialist policies? Like social security and medicaid, medicare, etc? We already have policies that are somewhat socialist. We all grew up on those. These are a part of my history and yours and Obamas. The leaders before us thought they were right for the country and we adopted them. Then, they turned out to be staples of the American landscape. Who would have thought that socialist policies would work? Bad socialist policy, bad. I could see if we had NO policies like that and then Obama wanted to introduce some, then we have an argument. This is not an argument for reasons stated above. Stop riding that dead horse. 2. Give me a name of a communist who influenced Obama? More importantly, how does this manifest itself in his philosophy and how he runs the country? 3. What terrorist has influenced Obama? -Keep in mind, don't run the BS about he sat on a board with one because I can sit on a board with people and not have them influence me too. The people who raised me help form my views and outlook on life, same as Obama. -Also don't run the BS that Aires introduced Obama to politics because that myth has been debunked as well. A bona fide terrorist who influenced him, bring it. I can ride a bus everyday with a pedophile, a communist and a socialist and still come out on the other side uninfluenced by them because my views have already been formed, same as Obama. I just fall over when I hear he sat in a church for 20 years and the minister help form him into a racist. I have been to church all my life and the church telling me abortion is sinfull still does not influence whether I have one or not. People can listen to garbage all day long at work but you still go home and do what they want to. His church attendance means nothing. That is not a legitimate argument As stated earlier, baseless nonsense

Ari said, You felt the same way when Bush was attacked by the left and called so many names I can't recall them all, and dozens of books, newspaper and magazine articles were written about him, with no other purpose then to name call? Articles that claimed he had Downs syndrome, autism, etc. etc.? These all offended you as well right? Because they were baseless and Bush is American like the rest of us? I'm not worried about Bush and the people who bashed him. I was not aware of all those names. I did hear him being called a terrorist, because of the war. I hear Obama being called a terrorist because of his name, his background and his associates. Bush being called a terrorist, I can understand to a certain extent why someone would place that name on him even though it is not true. I understand how one would make that type of mental jump. There is a little gap in reality but not that big a gap.I get where they come from, but I don't think he is. Obama's name calling has no bridge from point to point. The chasm between his name and being a terrorist is too far a bridge for me to cross and most logically, open minded people. It all started with his name. His name, baseless. His dad was a muslim, Obama is not. Baseless. The people he knows who might have radical ideas, baseless. Calling him a socialist, which he is not. He was born here just like us. Baseless. Like I said, I have no problem with people who have problems with his policy. But I do have a problem with people who call him socialist, terrorist and an illegitimate president, because then their argument about policy becomes null and void. Where does one go when arguing to one of those birther people? Nowhere and I label them wacko accordingly.

I am not offended by peoples logically arguments about the president. When his policies are talked about people can say what they like. I am however offended when he is called baseless names like terrorist, baby killer, and a whole host of garbage by the lame, subprime retards such as limpbiscuit and beck. This offends me and many others and I will defend him accordingly because we are all americans, him included and there is no need to call him code names to get the uneducated hyped up about him.

I think drill baby drill just went the way of the bridge to nowhere. Nobody is gonna touch that with a ten foot pole. My understanding is that even the exxon spill is still having repurcussions to this day. BP can't get the big top on the leak, a disaster of epic scope. Lets hope they can do more to stop it and come up with better ideas to contain the damage.

leroy said, My brother is developmentally disabled and I can tell you it hurts him deeply when the word retard is used. It's no different than calling someone faggot, nigger, spic, kike, pape, and so forth. Politics aside, people should not be ridiculed because of their sexual orientation, ethnic origin, religion or disability. I enjoy reading everyone's posts on this thread. You are all very knowledgable. Fellow Democrats and Obama supporters, let's not discredit ourselves by personally attacking others for expressing their opinions and resorting to name calling. It makes us no better than those who do the same. I don't recall me using this term for you , your brother, PG, or any handicap person. That is not the context. Just as PG posting what she just posted about the N word. That word offends me but I didn't and don't get bogged down in the wording but understand her context. You understand that context. Extend that same courtesy this way with my usage and don't get bent out of shape for the wrong concept which is PG's apparent pathway to rightousness. Her distractions are not my concern.

Calm down tiger. You went way beyond the pail. I, in this forum, am not talking about, nor expressing an opinion about handicap people nor the N word. I am expressing my opinion about righties who say offensive rhetoric about my president. I have that right, regardless of whether the way I say it offends you or not. They don't give a damn how they say it. I am under no obligation to make you feel good about how I say it in a rant and rave forum. Never mind that this convo has nothing to do with those words. You be offended by those words. I used them here as a description of backward commentators. Does not offend me to use it in this way. It would be offensive if I were talking about the handicap. I am not, we all are adults, most of us are capable of understanding my meaning. Some of us want to get bogged down in my freedom of expression. Get bogged down, I won't. Since we have such people with such low sensibility standards that words like baby killer about the president is acceptable for ANY tea bagger and commentator from Fake Noise to say yet those same folks get all bent because of the word retard, is beyond me. I respect that. That is the point. I don't like terrorist, pro-death, sympathizer or any other name my president has been called. It offends me. So don't use it for reference, condition or a description for policies from my president and I won't use words that offend you. As was expressed before, this is the rant and rave section. If you can't stand the heat get out of the kitchen. As long as I don't call you names and I am ranting about an abstract concept of people, don't try to sensor me.

Lets get this straight, PG. Calling commentators retards are not similiar to calling someone the N word. Why? Simply because the word retard was used to describe the handicapp many years ago which was then socially acceptable. Then it was replaced by the better term, mentally challenged and so forth. The N word can never be changed to make it sound acceptable. It has NO replacement. Retard does. Thus NO equivilent. Now, in my book and apparently Rush Limstick and a whole host of people on both sides use that term to describe wack job commentators of which I will happily call Beck and any tea bagger that calls my president a terrorist. So, be offended by your own righties when they use it. Make them take the high road and I'll do the same when they do. I know and you know the context of this conversation. Don't get all high and mighty. Your stature is no better than mine.

Don't play stupid, PG. Calling someone the N word is not equal to calling some Fox Noise commentators retards. Fortunately, I am not getting caught in your obvious distraction of words. Just like a righty, throw the blame back on the left as though we started it. Your tea baggers started it, the name calling, I just happen to like finishing it. No way in hell you can make me feel guilty for calling those yahoos names. They have no problem doing it to my side. Democrats are supposed to take the higher ground. When we come back with cheap shots like the righties, the righties cry foul on BS. I for one am not like progressive lefties in this regard. When righties throw rocks, I throw boulders. I see now that we are at war, any kind of war you like to categorize it as and I will be darned if the lefties get guilted into backing off. I'm on it like white on rice and I will stay on it as long as my president continues to get attacked by the gnomes on the right. You get offended by me calling righties retard? I get offended when I hear my president getting called a terrorist.

Anyone who calls someone a 'retard' is just as horrible as anyone who calls someone a racial slur. You are no better than those you criticize! Don't give me your politically correct crap. You and the tea baggers have no porblem calling Obama a radical, terrorist, terrorist sympathizer, alien, foreign, illegitimate president and all sorts of names and yet you get bothered by me calling Brown and idiot retard? Why should that bother you, I'm not talking about you, thus I can say it. I respect you enough not to call YOU names. If they can call my president an illegitimate citizen, then I can call them what I want.

Planted? You actually think the left went out and made up those videos on you tube? There are hundreds of videos about the teabaggers going bizerck on camera. Take a good look at any 5 videos from the poster NewLeftMedia and see what is being said. Dude on camera asks them the simple question and either they can't answer it, go off on a rant, or they are calling our president an extremist, which is straight wacky. Case in point, the retard Brown from the Katrina bungle. He got on the real comedy central, Fake Noise and said Obama wanted the leak in the ocean, that he planned it. Smart folks need to run away from loons like that, but Faux Newz audeince won't since they have been hoodwinked by the right propaganda machine. Point is, nobody is forcing the tea baggers to say the crap they are on camera. I am not call ing all teabaggers morons but the ones on camera talking are category 5's. And the left is not making this crap up. Fake Noise seems to cast a beam of idiocy over people with low research skills and fairy tale mentalities. Oh.. then I guess I am calling them morons. Those that take Fake Noise as a legitimate news source that is.

My question is this...If this is the same law that is already on the books from the FEDS, why would they have a need to sign it into law, YET AGAIN, in Arizona?

I was thinking about this today and I heard that about taxes before. How would we get them to pay retro taxes or are you talking about current taxation?

Is it not scary that people believe EVERYTHING they get in an email and read on the Internet and never bother with checking their facts? I blame our crappy school system that we have such ignorance and they haven't a clue they're ignorant.

I am still trying to figure out what your point is? That laws get changed for the benefit of the country and Dems do it? Bush did many things with the law and we didn't care for it, but he did it. WIre tapping, etc. What is your point, that just dems do it? I really don't think you understand the history of congress if you think this is all Dems fault.

You gotta love the anti-american rhetoric about Obama. Selective memory is great amongst them.

Don't you just love it when people cherry pick their answers? On the same note those same people who distrust their government are in a video on you tube regarding the tea baggers. I think the people who made it are called media progress or something but take a look at some of those videos. Scary, and I fear big percentage, believe this stuff retard Palin and others are spouting. It is ignorance to the highest degree that in one video, everyone of the people stated that they recieved NO tax cut or break. Every single one of them had NO clue of a tax cut. And every one of them said they got their news from the comedy channel, Fake News. Everyone of them, unbelievable. And yet, according to polls, these people are supposed to be educated and rich? Huh, where did the ignorant curveball come from cause these people are real ignorant.........My mom always said the more you know the better you do. Apparently not.

FAKE NOISE, where else?