ouroborous

Okay, okay, I know I'll get a whole lot of "size doesn't matter" responses to this, and it's embarrassing to even ask. However... To us guys, our "endowment" is intimately tied to our self-esteem. Now, on that front, I'm doing okay genetically speaking, but, well, I'm fat. Obese. The result of that is that I have a big gut hiding... things from me, and a fat pad above the pubic area that also makes stuff look smaller than it really is. Any guys (or gals for that matter) know if losing the weight will make the, um, package area more prominent? I know, I know, it's silly and shallow, but then again -- isn't all concern over our appearance silly and shallow? I'm not counting on a dramatic change in this area, but it would be nice to have that uh... little REMINDER that "hey, I'm a man after all!" Anyone?

Has anyone here learned (or tried to learn) Tai Chi as an adult? I'm trying, without much success (so far). What's discouraging me is that I've realized that I've lived my entire life in a sedentary, cerebral manner. While that has benefited me greatly in some ways (I'm super well educated and make lots of money in high tech) in other ways I've missed out -- I was (obviously) obese, and I'm still rather uncoordinated. So, because of this, I decided that maybe studying a gentle fitness/flexibility program like yoga or Tai Chi might help me. The problem is, I think I'm TOO uncoordinated! I don't have any MEDICAL conditions (meaning, I'm not injured or medically incapable of performing the movements), but I'm having serious problems with muscle memory -- trying to remember the forms and the movements -- in addition to balance (things where you have to stand on one leg or sweep your weight onto a leg or something cause me to almost fall over!) Is this just typical beginner's problems (I've been to ONE group class, where I was lost, as well as watching some online videos and reading about it, so I'm a true beginner) that I just need to push through, or are some people just not capable of "getting it?" I'm very curious if anyone on here has tried this sport/fitness program/martial art and can comment.

I have seen a couple of posts from people worried about taking in too little food, and I thought I'd post this handy hint I learned a long time ago. It's called the "rule of threes" and is a rule of thumb for how long you can survive without basic necessities: 3 minutes without air 3 hours without shelter 3 days without Water 3 weeks without food 3 months without hope The point of my post is that you can survive for three entire weeks without a single bite of food. Obese people like us, perhaps four. So if you're only able to eat 400-500 calories a day, don't fret. You're not going to starve for a long, long time. Just try to make sure that the calories you ARE getting are high quality (enough Protein, enough micronutrients, etc.) And as the "rule of threes" shows, getting water is MUCH, much more important and urgent than food, and yet even here you could (theoretically) survive three whole days without a single drop (including the water you get in your food). So, if you're fretful or a hypochondriac like me, don't worry quite so much. Do everything the doctor tells you, tell him/her about any strange or worrisome new symptoms, and focus on recovery -- not "what could go wrong."

According to the height/weight charts, as of my last (Friday) weigh-in, my BMI is now 29.9, which means I'm -- just barely -- "overweight" instead of "obese" for the first time in, well, ever. As long as I've been weighing myself, anyway! WOOOHOOO!

Thanks all, it's a wonderful feeling to be overweight! I don't dare hope that I'll ever be "normal" weight according to the height/weight charts, since that would require me to drop almost another 30 pounds, which -- with my build -- just ain't happening. But now, if I ever have to fill out one of those singles/dating profiles, I don't feel guilty saying that I'm "about average" in shape. Huzzah!

So, yesterday, I went to my first tai chi class (ever!) I felt a little self-conscious (since I felt so clumsy next to all of the graceful tai chi and kung fu students) but I muddled through it. It didn't seem terribly "hard" -- the stretching at the beginning was a little challenging, but not overly so -- nothing really hurt, and I didn't even build up much of a sweat! On the way home I was thinking -- "okay, well so tai chi won't be to build muscles or burn fat, but rather to work on balance and keeping limber" and I was fine with that (I work out nearly every day to build muscle and burn fat, so it's okay if tai chi is more about meditation and stretching than bodybuilding!) Then I came home and had a quesadilla and ate it a little too fast (I was starving!). I had a bit of acid reflux, but I thought nothing of it and took a couple of antacids. In about 20-30 minutes, I started getting really bad calf cramps, started feeling achey all over, and then started feeling really, REALLY tired. I went to bed and took a tylenol PM (I was achey, plus the PM part of tylenol PM is diphenhydramine, which is basically Benadryl, which helps my night time allergies). Today, for the first time in a while, I woke up really kinda tired and groggy, and I'm still a bit draggy! So I'm trying to figure out what happened; was Tai Chi harder than I thought, and despite not feeling tired or achey at the time, I was really worn out? Or maybe the fatigue plus cramps meant I was borderline dehydrated or low on some micronutrient? I thought I drank plenty of Water yesterday, but maybe not enough -- I recall that I did have more coffee than normal yesterday. The answer could be as simple as "you were tired, dummy!" (I AM over 40 now, after all!), but I'm wondering if there's some other lesson to take home here. Any thoughts?

My entire relationship to food has changed since I had the sleeve. I used to love, love, LOVE food -- food was recreation, food was comfort, food was self-soothing. Now, food... I can take it or leave it. I feel like I need to "feed the machine" periodically, and I do my best to put in high-quality fuel to keep myself healthy and happy. But I no longer have such a strong emotional connection to food. In the long run, I think that's a good thing; it's part of why I got obese to begin with!

Well, I don't feel at all sick or in any way under the weather today. Honestly I think I'll have to chalk it up as "just one of those things that happens." It's possible that I may be running a little dehydrated lately (I've noticed other symptoms) and this may have been related (the tiny bit of exercise/sweat from tai chi may have been the tipping point), so I'm focusing on Water intake today. 30 oz down and counting!

Well I think that's sort of the point we're all trying to make; the BMI and height/weight charts are approximations -- we all know that -- but how do we come up with a realistic number? I know that at 230 I'm not "done" yet; I still have what I call the "jelly roll" around the middle. I've also come to terms with the fact that it's not going to be effortless anymore like it was in the beginning; just as I'm getting to a more "normal" weight, I'm also going to have to do what "normal" people have to do if they want to lose that last 20-30 pounds -- work my butt off for it! And that means watching what I eat (carefully!) -- no more snacking and junk food and STILL losing weight -- and hitting the gym several times a week (as well as lots of cardio). But still, I have no idea what's a reasonable "target" weight. I guess, like the definition of pornography, I'll know it when I see it!

I wasn't sure if this was a testosterone thing (and I should post it in the Man Room) or a WLS thing -- so I'm posting it here. I'm finding myself waking up earlier and earlier; today I woke up -- without an alarm clock! -- at 4:50 am! I went to bed at 11:30, and I'm not tired. I'm finding that I just don't feel like I need more than about 6 hours of sleep in a night, and that's a big change from pre-weight loss, when even with 8 hours, I felt sluggish and tired. It might also be a "getting older" thing, but c'mon -- I'm only 40. I'm not quite my parents' 80+ years, and I'm not ready to hustle over to the Old Country Buffet, nor am I going to bed at 7pm! Anyone else going through this? It's not entirely horrible, just weird. I mentioned the Man Room thing because right now my testosterone is surging too (as evidenced by a number of things I won't go into).

Hot mama! You're looking great, Tiff

I'm struggling with the same issues, trying to figure out if a goal weight of around 210 is reasonable (I'm bouncing around 230 and have been since February). The BMI charts say that I "should" weigh 190, but THAT will never happen! BTW: chilo, from the other thread, you're looking marvelous; I know we tend to be our own worst critics, but this man's outside opinion is that you don't need to change a thing. I can only hope to get to where I'm looking so lean and trim and happy!

I think you might be on to something -- it might just be that I'm actually getting RESTFUL sleep for the fist time in years, and I'm not used to it! According to the bed partner: "you sleep like the dead, on your back -- you do not snore or gasp or anything." So maybe I'm just not used to having enough ENERGY to get by with only six hours of sleep. Ah well, I guess it's a good thing, right -- I'm rested, and I have all these hours in the morning to get my day started (I'm finding that doing my workout calisthenics routine in the morning works well; I've still got lots of energy, and it gives me something to do besides shove food in my mouth!)

According to what I've read, while you can definitely stretch the sleeve to some extent, the part that gets cut out (the fundus, technically) is the really "stretchy" part. According to my doc (and folks on here), the remainder of the stomach is about on par with football leather in terms of how much you can stretch it -- very tough indeed!

Hate to say it if you're burnt out on Water, but -- DRINK MORE WATER! Keeping VERY hydrated (get used to it, for us sleevers, it's a long-term thing!) will help with almost every aspect of healing, as well as the likely orthostatic hypotension that you'll deal with once the pounds really start dropping. So: drink water! It won't fix everything, but it might make the lightheaded feeling a bit better.

Yes, you can bulk up. It depends, like N2B8R says, on good nutrition, on reducing body fat, and also on proper amino acid balance. I focus really hard on getting enough lean Protein (that's critical!), spending enough time on the weights (I mean c'mon, you can't bulk up without SOME kind of resistance work) and I also take a couple of supplements. For me, I take Tribulus and DHEA (you probably don't want these since they're for men to bump up the testosterone), as well as a bedtime arginine blast of about 1200mg. The arginine is supposedly a growth hormone releaser (studies are conflicted about it, but at least it's not HARMFUL, since it's just an amino acid); I've noticed that when I'm taking arginine, hard workouts lead to nausea more frequently. This may sound weird or undesirable, but from what I understand, that bout of nausea is often symptomatic of a GH dump, which is one of the things you'd want in order to bulk up. Similarly, I've noticed when taking arginine that my muscles grow much faster -- I haven't measured it or done double-blinds or anything, but it SEEMS that way to me. Ultimately, I'd talk to your doc/nutritionist about this. Bottom line is that, with proper nutrition and exercise, and assuming you're in the right age bracket/don't have any illnesses or genetic conditions that would prevent it, YES, you should be able to bulk up, even after WLS.

So, I'm about a year out and about 100-105 lbs down (haven't weighed lately). I'm getting to the point where "most of me" looks "pretty good" -- my face and neck are much slimmer, my legs are much slimmer and more defined, and my "gut" is way, way smaller. There is a little loose skin on my arms, thighs, and chest that I'm sure I can fix with weightlifting (and I'm getting a personal trainer and I'm going to hit the gym HARD this summer). However, now I'm down to a roll of... something around my midsection. My BMI is still 30 -- obese -- so it could well be fat. However, given my build (large, with a side of lumberjack genetics!) this is probably off; I'm probably around 28 or so "real" BMI (I should do a tank test to see!) No matter how you slice it, I still have fat to lose; my final "stopping" weight would probably be around 205-210, so I have nearly 20 more pounds to lose. That being said, what's around my tummy doesn't feel as much like fat as before. There are parts where you can pinch it and there's still clearly blubber in there, but not much. So... I'm wondering what to do about it? Just keep on trying to lose weight? And, if it's loose skin, should I be considering plastic surgery, or can I counteract it with e.g. hardcore crunches and obliques workouts? It's not much -- I've seen people with DRAMATIC aprons of loose skin, and if this IS loose skin, it's NOTHING like that, but still... I've come THIS far, I don't want to be embarrassed to be outside with my shirt off! Sorry this is rambling, and thanks in advance for any thoughts/advice. If I get up the courage, I may post a picture soon so you all can see what I'm talking about. If I get up the courage!

Well thank you for the compliments. I also unfortunately have a lot of loose skin/remaining flab on my inner thighs (I didn't snap a picture of that because I couldn't figure out how to get a G-rated one!), so I think it remains to be seen whether bodybuilding alone will solve my problems, or if I'm going to need plastic surgery.

Interestingly, I've had some hormonal difficulties in my life, with my testosterone being a tad low and my "female" hormones a tad high. It got traced down to a non-cancerous growth in my brain -- which is being treated -- but the end result was that my testosterone was always "borderline" between good enough and too low. And I always felt soft, pudgy, and not super "masculine" -- not a really defined feeling, just not always aggressive, assertive, sexual, etc. Since losing 100 lbs, my testosterone has nearly doubled, and I've noticed dramatic changes in my libido, more facial and body hair (although I'm not a yeti, thank goodness!) and much better muscle bulk and assertiveness. I spoke with my doc about it, and he wasn't surprised; he said that fat is responsible for converting (aromatizing) testosterone to estrogen, and that the number one way that guys can improve testosterone, increase libido, etc., is to lose fat -- particularly belly fat. So I wouldn't be surprised to hear about the estrogen thing. Yeah, I'm not thrilled at the idea of another major surgery. I'm going to dedicate myself to packing on as much muscle as I can -- it's a fun challenge and it will improve my health, self-confidence, and appearance. But ultimately I'm not willing to spend the rest of my life not liking my appearance, so if that means I need plastic surgery at some point in the future -- so be it.

I have thought about it. I know someone who just had "some work done" post-WLS and she is VERY happy with the results (despite the fact that post-surgical care was... not trivial). To be honest, though, that surgery scares me -- it is in some ways more of a major surgery than the VSG itself (I know it's hard to believe, but you basically get flayed, and skin loss of that magnitude is risky). Also, I guess I'm really just hoping that the skin will "pull back" on its own. I know that I'm not going to consider it for at least another six months; I'm only about a year out, and according to the BMI charts, I still have almost 40 lbs to lose (although given my build, which you can see in the picture, I'd guess that that's closer to 30 lbs). So I want to try to be patient and wait to shed some more weight; it sucks because I won't get to feel all sexy this summer -- maybe next summer? -- but at least I've filled the summer with all kinds of fun, outdoorsy physical activities. I have considered consulting my friend's plastic surgeon, but honestly how could I trust that his opinion was unbiased? Of course he's going to tell me that he could do it, and I would look FABULOUS, but how can I know he's being completely candid when he's got a financial stake in the answer? That's why I was asking here; I assume that folks on here have much more of an unbiased (and hopefully first-person) opinion on the subject.

So, I snapped two pictures, what I call the good news/bad news pictures. The good news: my chest and upper abs, as well as my arms, are looking good. I just need to bulk up the muscle a little, and I think I'll be fine. There's a TINY bit of flab around the side of my pecs, but my chest bulks up REALLY quick, so I think some flys and outer pec work should take care of that. https://picasaweb.go...feat=directlink The bad news: my belly still has a fair amount of fat, and it's starting to show a little bit of that "deflated tire" thing (WARNING: not pretty!) https://picasaweb.go...feat=directlink Also note that you can see some stretch marks where my poor abused skin was stretched out to nearly 350 pounds at my heaviest, and then shrunk back. I've literally had those since my teens, so I doubt they're going away So I'm thinking the answer to my question -- "can I just work out really hard and build muscle and burn fat, or do I need to have plastic surgery" -- is going to have to be "both." But at least I can put off the plastics for a while while I get rid of that last 20-30 pounds of stubborn fat. Who knows, maybe in that time, my skin will improve a little if I do all the right things (hydration, moisturize, avoid sun damage, etc.) I was HOPING to avoid plastics, but... oh well

So I snapped a couple of pictures, and they made it abundantly clear: it's still fat. I'll work on losing that last 25-30 pounds (it's probably more than I thought!) and building my core muscles up. If I am still having this problem in another year or so (I'm only a year out from surgery), THEN I'll consider the plastics. Thanks for all the responses!

Thanks for the response. I'll post some shirtless pics Real Soon Now . That should make it clear what I'm talking about. I'm pretty sure that it's mostly a layer of belly fat still, and the fact that my core is weak (this summer is going to be my "stop being a lazy ass summer!") makes it MUCH more apparent that that last "spare tire" is there. I guess I'm just so used to being morbidly obese -- where you don't have these little bulges... you just have one enormous giant MASS of fat! -- that I'm not used to what "close to in shape with a few trouble spots left" looks like!