L8BloomR

I appreciate your thoughtful post, Green. I think most pro-lifers do understand what you are feeling and fearing, but because we view both the mother and the child as important, I don't think you need to worry about wearing a burqa or being stoned in public for showing an ankle. Our differences are in the solution to a difficult problem. Even if abortion should suddenly become illegal (and I can't see that happening....it would be like putting the genie back in the bottle), women would not lose any other rights. We went a lot of years in this country without legal abortions OR burqas!!

Incredible poll results, Gadgetlady! I am really surprised by the numbers, aren't you? Thank you for posting them!

I gave the link just a few posts above, #380. I don't think this study had anyone bragging about what they gave to charity; it was a man researching the subject and asking and documenting who gave what. He also researched the same thing in Europe and found the same results. I heard an interview with him on the radio and it was very interesting and not a partisan thing at all. I then read about his work and the results in our local paper and on the evening news and he has written a book which is featured in the link.

The Chronicle, 11/23/2006: Charity's Political Divide Here is a link to the article I was referring to, but I need to correct a couple of things. This is a book done on a study, and the author is not currently a liberal. He was raised in a liberal home, but is now a registred Independent. I saw quite a few discussions on TV and read articles about his findings earlier this year and found it very interesting.

Well, now you have put me to work. I listened to a review of this study and a discussion by the author of it on the radio. I wrote down the name of the author and the study but can't remember where and now will have to search. I believe it was done by Syracuse University, and the person doing it was doing research for a much larger project. He is liberal, btw. He was shocked by his findings because he thought they would be the opposite. As I recall, he broke it down in 4 groups, the ones I mentioned. It must have been a valid study, because I read about the study and these same results in many places, including our very liberal newspaper!

Just a reminder: That large, non-partisan study done last year showed that conservatives and religious people gave far more $$ and time to charities and needy people than did the non-religious and liberals. The reason was that conservatives believed taking care of others was a personal responsibility, while the liberals believed it was the government's job. I think we can all agree that there is validity to both sides, but I wish that we could stop promoting stereotypes and judgments against those who don't look at things in the same way we do. I think reasonable people can see that most people truly want what is best for others. No one wants to see people starving or homeless. To make one side or the other out to be uncaring or selfish does nothing to solve problems and only promotes the differences between us. I know that everyone here wants what is best for others. We just differ in how to go about that and so I think this debate is a good one if we can focus on the positives. IMHO......

I think all of us posting on this issue think we are "right" or else we wouldn't keep this thread going! The main difference between us is that some of us think human life begins at conception and needs to be protected---and others either don't think life begins then or else that the mother's wishes need to be protected. Both sides think their cause is noble, which is understandable since both believe they are standing up for the rights of others. Both sides can tell stories of hypocrisy about the other side and both can give examples of how their side was better for someone. I'm not sure where else we can take this thread! I think I have added all I can to this discussion so I am going to bow out now. For me, it is sometimes just better to "agree to disagree", although I have really been impressed with some of the deep and insightful posts here. I feel like I have learned alot. And Gadgetlady, my hat is off to you. You have been alone in much of this battle yet you have been able to articulate your views with intelligence and depth. It can't have been easy---you have some great debaters here!

Hi to all the Nov. Bandsters! It has been a long time since I have reported in, also. Wow, the pictures being posted are amazing! Remember all the worry and anxiety we all had just a year ago? An amazing journey, eh? I am down about 45 pounds, as it has taken me a loooong time to get proper restriction. But since I did with my last fill 2 months ago ---wow-wee --- What a difference! Now I have joined the "I love my band" group. I can eat anything-just in small amounts-and have only PB'ed twice (due to my own carelessness.) I am finally losing the hoped-for 1 to 2 pounds a week. It is so great to see and hear about everyone's progress!! I think next month on our 1-year "anniversary", we should all report in with our weight loss and maybe include an example of what has improved the most in our lives since we began. I know I couldn't have done this without all of you and this board! Congrats, everyone!! :clap2:

In the late 1970's my DH and I tried to adopt because we didn't think we could have any more children. Because we had 1 child already, we were turned down by every American agency we tried because there was such a shortage of babies/small children available. The only way they would even consider taking our name was if we would consider a much older, handicapped child and I am ashamed to say that we did not think we were capable at that time of taking on that kind of responsibility, so we did not pursue the issue beyond that...and eventually we did have another child of our own. I bring this up because I can still remember how shocked I was to hear that there were so few babies available for adoption, so few years after abortion became legal. I knew/know of many women who would love to adopt, but there are very few available babies. Just to be clear, I am not saying I think "available babies" is a good thing...obviously it would be ideal for every baby to be wanted and raised by their birth-mother and for there to be no unwanted children, but I think our society has become so used to thinking in terms of "millions of unwanted children" that we haven't looked to see how few there may actually be, at least in this country. I would hope that should a woman not be able to keep her unborn child, the knowledge that there are many, many waiting families wanting to love and raise her child should give her a more comforting option than abortion.

Welcome to this thread, Chris----it's wonderful to have another Republican here! :clap2: Keep posting, please...we need you!!

You look beautiful, Vikki!! I can't believe the difference in your 50 pound loss!! WOW!! I appreciate you posting this because I have lost "only" 43 pounds and didn't think that was enough to show, but seeing what it has done for you gives me hope!! You look gorgeous!! :clap2:

That is how they get this award. I remember reading about Bill Clinton's efforts to get this same prize, using the same means. He had people lobbying for months. It does sort of change how you view this award, doesn't it?

Oh, Jack, you say it so well! I agree 100% :clap2:

I lost all respect for this "prize" when they gave it to Yassar Arafat.

You are right, telling stories is about the only way I can reach my Dad now, but those days are few and far between. My Dad has become suspicious and paranoid. He thinks I am out to steal his money (I have never taken or asked for even a dime from my folks in my entire adult life), he has invented amazing (but terrible) stories about my DH, my kids, my Mom and is now starting to go after my brother and sister. He chased my brother out of his house recently! But the advice you gave about trying to explain how I will miss him and need to spend time with him is good and I will try it. And the stories, a great suggestion. Hopefully he won't think I am trying to divert his attention in order to swipe something... :paranoid What a great way to view your parent's alcoholism. I don't think I have ever heard a better way to look at it. I sometimes think about the fact that I gained alot from dealing with my parent's "issues", but mostly I just feel grateful that I survived it. You have turned it into an advantage. I do try to remember that I grew in ways I wouldn't have if I had had "normal" parents, but there was so much pain in my life as a kid that I sometimes let that cloud my perspective. Good for you that you learned early on to make it work for you. What a terrific attitude. I'm surprised your sisters didn't pick that up from you. Are you the oldest? My Mom quit drinking for 2 main reasons: She fell down the stairs (again) in a blackout and while recovering, her doctor told her she had only a short time to live as her liver was totally shot. My Mom didn't really care at that time, but then my brother lost his wife and 2 kids in a car accident and needed help, which gave my Mom a reason to live again. She checked herself into a rehab and did the tough work necessary to turn her life around. She is an inspiration to all her friends in AA, as well as our family! I really am sorry about your Dad. I will try to remember how precious time with our fathers is, no matter how they are treating us. Thank you for your compassionate advice. It means alot.

Wasa: Thank you for that information. My Dad was only just recently diagnosed with lung cancer and has refused any more tests and treatment, so I don't know how advanced it is at this point. So far he doesn't seem to have much pain, just exhausted all the time. Your suggestion that he might become the "good" dad again at the end of his life brings me hope. I want so much to end this chapter with love in my heart instead of frustration and the anger he constantly provokes in us all. I appreciate you telling me this. By-the-way, my Mom was an alcoholic, also, since she was 17. She finally quit drinking at about age 70. Her drunken brutality impacted my life in ways I only recently have come to terms with. On the plus side, she has now become, at age 82, the wonderful Mom I could have used growing up, but at least get to experience now. So I understand somewhat the pain you feel regarding your mother. Laurend: I work with elderly people and their families and I know the devastation of Alzheimer's. I don't blame you for fearing it; it is a dreadful disease. But I know that there are breakthroughs now in medications and treatments. Hopefully there will be even better help available if/when you need it for your parents, so hold on to that. I have several patients who are being helped tremendously by these new drugs, so there is hope!

Hopefully, you are glad now that you have this picture...although it must be tough to look at it. Do you have others of you and your Dad or is this the only one? It is amazing how much our relationships with our Dads can affect us, huh? For a different perspective, my relationship with my Dad was at times tender and at other times brutal as I was growing up. But about 15 years ago he seemed to lose his brutal side and became "My Daddy" and my hero. I loved being with him and we got very close. But 2 years ago he changed dramatically (doctors can't find any reason, so I am assuming he has dementia) and now, at 90, he has become a terrible and vindictive person. I am trying so hard to hold on to the good memories but he is destroying his relationships and our family closeness with his nasty side. He has lung cancer and we are all trying to reach the "good" Dad before he dies, but I think he has gone for good. It may sound terrible, but sometimes I wish he had died a few years ago so that I could miss him in the way you do. Now I am afraid I will only feel relief.

What a heart-warming story! Made me feel all warm and nostalgic inside. Sounds like you had a wonderful childhood and a great relationship with your Dad. You must miss him terribly. I'm sorry you don't have him but it sounds like he left you some beautiful memories. Thanks for sharing this......

WOW, this was eyeopening for me! I was surprised to see who I am more in line with as a candidate. Thanks for posting this link....I think it will be useful for alot of people!

I suspect you are Queen of a very large group.... myself included! :phanvan

Well, I sure didn't phrase that right, did I? I said in an earlier post that I was a skeptic that became a true believer after a profound spiritual experience, so of course I know that you can't simply "turn on" your beliefs by yourself. I guess I didn't make that clear with the above sentence. I should have said "If someone does not believe in God...."

Wasa: I, too, get very annoyed at religious people coming to my door to "convert" me! I can see why you or others would feel battered by these people. But I have never done that, and I don't know any one else who has. If someone does not want to believe in God, fine, it is not for me to determine their life's direction. But because I haven't tried to ram my beliefs down other people's throats, and no one I know does that, either, does it mean it doesn't happen? Of course it does. That is what I am saying here. Maybe you don't generalize Christians or lump the bad ones in with the good, but I have experienced it many, many times. It is very real for me, as your experiences are for you. The only difference I notice is that in most of what I read, there is usually a disclaimer when talking about Muslim and other (non-Christian) extremists: "This does not represent the entire Muslim community, etc." I just don't see it when discussing Christian extremists. I wish I did, but I just haven't seen it.

I wasn't quoting you at all. In fact, I totally agreed with your earlier post and was going to comment on that. There are extremes within each community, and I appreciate that you acknowledged that. But in other threads here and in editorials, magazines, and blogs, I find that the generalizations about Christians are more widespread and believed than on any other group. Maybe one has to be a member of a maligned group to see it that way, but it is very real to me and I would suspect to most Christians.

This is a great answer, Elena! I just have one more thing to add: Why is it that when any other person does something extreme while representing a cause (i.e. The Unibomber/environmentalists, terrorists/Muslims, etc.) we are admonished to not let the few represent the entire group. But if an extremist Christian does something wrong. it is applied to the whole group. If someone shoots at an abortion clinic, we hear that "Christians only care about babies' lives, not about other lives." I hear it again and again, especially on this board. There is never an admonishment to not judge other Christians by the actions of a few. No group or individual likes to be characterized by a generality, yet Christians have to deal with this more than anyone else, in my opinion.

Thank you, Elena. You know, even when I was skeptical or had doubts, I remained faithful to my religion because it made me a better person. When I hear people say that Christians are mean or intolerant (because of the actions of few bad people---as if they represent us all), I want to cry with frustration. We get judged so much harsher than anyone else, as if there are no mean or intolerant atheists, muslims, etc., and within every other group of people. A true Christian is kind, loving, giving and unselfish and most that I know are like that. You sound like one of them. Thank you for sharing your beliefs here. God bless you, too!