L8BloomR

Elena and SueSue, you guys inspire me! In the elder-care field that I am in, we see so many people who will not take care of their elderly parents or provide for them in any way. To hear what you do for your mothers, even though it is a hardship for you, is heart-warming. This is as it always was until recently, and some can argue that developing a welfare state has made it easy for so many people to shirk their responsibilities towards their family members. Yes, we need to help those who do not have the family or help they need, but unfortunately it has come at a price for society. We now feel free to dump our "problems" on others and walk away guilt-free. It is the saddest part of my job... But again, you guys inspire and I am so glad that you shared your stories. Thank you!

Thank you, Elena, I appreciate the support!

I don't think anyone here is saying that only one thing, like shoes, is the basis for judging someone's circumstances. In my own case, I go into the home and also know a bit about the dynamics of each case. I can tell when someone is truly needy and has been given things to help them, or if someone is using the system. And, even if I know that there is fraud going on we still provide the free services, preferring to err on that side than the other. Also, in the case of the students taking advantage of free programs, these were my neighbors and many were close friends. I knew their financial situations....often they were better than mine. And I believe SueSue also has a good grasp of this same situation and knows enough about her students to make an accurate assessment. I don't believe anyone here is making a quick judgment just because of expensive shoes, but I do understand why you would worry about that happening.

I am not the one speaking in absolutes. I am not the one making statements stating as fact that certain people are more likely to be a criminal or that a doctor who performs late-terms abortions is "courageous". I don't know why you made such a harsh remark and you directed it at the wrong person. I merely pointed out that these doctors make money doing this, they are not doing it merely as a public service as was implied. If you don't agree, state your reasons why. Don't scold me on how to state an opinion, please. I was much more polite in my post than you just were to me.

I just spent 15 minutes searching the web to find more information about the authors and the study you quoted, but all I get is the article you quoted from that is posted on various Atheist websites. I need to know much more about the date of this study, the background and potential agendas of the authors and the criteria of the information gathered. I would also need to know if one very important question was asked before I could sign on to the validity of this study: "Do you practice your religion"? Many people are born, baptised and raised in a religion, but as adults they abandon it. They continue to identify as that religion, but for all practical purposes, they have no religion. Put it this way: I can call myself a vegetarian, I can promote vegetarianism, distribute vegetarian literature and quote from famous vegetarians....but if I am still eating meat, I am certainly not a vegetarian and anyone witnessing my meat-eating should not judge other vegetarians by my actions. The same goes for "religious" people in public and in prison. Also, this study included Jews in its statistics. I have several Jewish friends, and for the most part, they identify as Jews as a culture, not as a religion. They don't follow a moral or "religious" code of behavior, but a cultural one. This study is also suspect for another reason. It gives as a reason for the murderous behavior of Christians the "fact" that Christians commit deadly crimes because they know that God will forgive them and they will go to Heaven, so their behavior doesn't matter. That is, to put it mildly, a load of crap. Christians know that they need to show God that they love and believe in Him, and the way He has asked us to do that is to follow His laws of love, kindness, patience and virtue. Their salvation is only guaranteed if they do. Secondly, your "study" quotes the Old Testament as proof that Christians think that murderous, criminal actions are just fine in God's eyes. Christians don't follow the Old Testament. When Jesus came, he made a New Covenant with His followers. We now follow the laws that Jesus set, and they demand that we live moral and loving lives. Just because many of us struggle with this, especially in our modern world, does not make us any more comfortable with murder or crime than others. Quite the opposite, I believe. Sorry, I just don't buy the point you are trying to make. I have never known a true Christian who was anything like the ones in the article you quoted.

Many doctors perform late-term abortions....doesn't take courage since many are are legal and no one seems to prosecute when they aren't. But they don't do them for free, do they? They do it for money. Who is the naive one? Unless you take a survey of every single person who commits a violent act in this country, you should not make a statement that "religious people are the most violent people in the U.S." Where did you get that statistic? Did you question every gang-banger, every murderer, every drive-by shooter? I would bet all my money that truly religious people make up the smallest number of violent offenders in our population. True religious people do not believe in killing. Just because you want to believe the media hype does not make the hype correct. There are loons in every segment of the population and in every group. No group should be judge as a whole by the actions of the renegade few. By far the vast majority of Christians follow the creed: Thou Shalt Not Kill. If any one turns their back on this creed, they are no longer Christian, in my opinion.

SueSue, I understand your frustration. When my kids were younger, we were really struggling to make ends meet. Many of the kids in our neighborhood were getting free breakfasts and lunches at school, and getting help in other ways from government programs. Yet they all had the latest and most expensive clothes, shoes, and videos and video games. We couldn't afford those things and my kids always asked why their friends had them and we couldn't afford them. The school district budget was really stretched thin and yet no one seemed to care about taking more from it. The parents of these kids were nice and ethical for the most part, yet saw nothing wrong in subsidizing their income in this way. Most of them faked their income information and no one bothered to check. It was tough to explain to my kids, but I am glad we didn't fall into that same slippery slope. You are to be commended for speaking out and for helping your mom. I bet you are a great teacher and will do much good just by the example you set!

Hi Elena! Yes, we had a great trip....just got back and couldn't wait to get my LBT "fix".... Nice to hear from you, too! About the shoes.... I guess what I was getting at was that what was once considered a "luxury" has now become a "necessity" for so many people. They feel deprived and picked on if others have more than they do, regardless if is needed or not, or if they can pay for it or not. Of course not all people do this, but enough do to make it really frustrating for those of us providing free services. We see them spend what money they have on "play" stuff, and not on the food, shelter, and health needs they have. Then, of course, they say they aren't getting enough help. Let me just say again that I have ZERO problem helping those who really need it. And I put my money where my mouth is, both personally and through my business. But it does get to me sometimes to see that help getting wasted by some people. Of course, there are those who truly do need the help and use it wisely.... they are the ones that keep me going and restore my faith....

I agree. It doesn't take "courage" for a doctor to abort a full-term baby. It only takes $$.

You get irritated hearing about the $150 shoes, I get irritated when I SEE the $150 shoes on the feet of people I visit who are getting welfare. So are we even?? :guess And I agree.... the debates here on LBT are lively and fun (usually) ... thanks for helping make it that way !

Bjean, you should know by now that I don't make statements I can't back up or have not experienced myself. I see this all the time in my work... people on welfare or getting government help and having more luxuries than I have. And I never said that "all government programs are bad." Agreeing with SueSue and what she has seen in her work does not mean that she or I or anyone else is resentful of helping those who truly need help. I am sorry you are "tired of hearing" it, but I also get tired of hearing things like blaming the government or the Republicans or anyone else. People need to take responsibility for their own lives...stop using others or the system. Stop blaming the government for the problems in their life or playing the "buy now, pay later (or never)" game. Figure out what they truly need to live, not what they want or think they should have. I see it all the time....it is not a myth. Clinton couldn't solve it, Bush can't solve it---- people need to solve it themselves. I don't have the answer---but not discussing it won't solve it either.

Great post, SueSue! You are so right! As someone who also works with people using social services, I also have been appalled by all the fraud and waste. What really gripes me is that many of the ones using the system the most seem to be the ones who complain about how "unfair" the system is....all while wearing their $150.00 shoes, watching their big-screen plasma TVs, texting on their cell phones and listening to their Ipods! For those of us who struggle to provide the true necessities and also pay high taxes to help others, it can be hard to take sometimes. Hang in there! You sound like a wonderful daughter. (P.S. You must get lonely in the staff room, huh? My conservative-teacher friends all comment on that.....) Thanks for posting!

Josette: I love your babies!! I have 3 rescued German Shepherds myself and can't imagine life without them. Yours look so happy.... aren't they wonderful?

:clap2: :laugh:rofl:

Well, if I don't wear one, I might bruise my knees.....!!!

Well, of course! Is there any other way to talk about men and sex? :biggrin1:

Let's not forget that many Iraqis have been/are helping our forces there. And now many tribal leaders are, also. If they were truly "freedom fighters", they would be embraced by their own people, but because these terrorist are destroying their own countrymen, their children, their schools and mosques, and creating chaos and pain everywhere they go, they have become the enemy. My son was in Iraq and is currently in Afghanistan, and he says that the people there have become sick and tired of these terrorists ruining their country. Yes, they are not wild about another country (us) coming in, but for the most part, they would rather deal with us than having their country taken over by these radical extremists.

Hmmmmm, how soon can we arrange this??? I'm salivating already....

This is one of the best descriptions I have ever read of this situation. Thank you, Kagoscuba. I have a friend who lives in Israel and she has brought up some of those same points. These are things that most of us here never have brought to our attention. I research as much as I can and have found this quite accurate. Yes, the IRA, the KKK and so many other groups are guilty of using terrorism to make their points, but there are so many differences between them and what goes on in the "Israeli/Palestinian" conflict. These other groups were either trying to make a stand for a particular way of life or against a perceived injustice. None of them tried to take over or take away an entire country. And in spite of the numerous times that the Palestinians have been offered their own country (remember when Pres. Clinton engineered a huge concession of land from the Israeli Prime Minister Barak ....and Yassar Arafat turned it down?), they still demand that Israel needs to give more. If they truly only wanted a place to call their own, they would have taken that place. To not do so suggests there is more to their "need" then just a country.

Nope, you just close your eyes, bow your head, and think about all the pain "relief" you are going to be giving me!!! :biggrin1:

Sorry to bring this thread back to topic...... I would love to meet BJean and Green for coffee. We are all about the same age and have had some similar experiences. BJean and I would have great fun arguing and Green could moderate with her sage advice.... And I would also love to meet Elena, Gadgetlady, Mrspruett, Chris NJ, and all of the other like-minded teammates who battle for "our" side! Oh, and Jack...I would sit at his feet and listen to his philosophical thoughts, anytime. P.S. And I want to have WasABubblebutt be the nurse at my next surgery!

:high5: :dance:

Yup, interesting, isn't it? Bush #1 and Cheney didn't think we should continue in Iraq after the Gulf War, and Al Gore and other Democrats thought we should have. I think because of the talk throughout the following years about Saddam's WMD, his defiance of 17 U.N. resolutions to come clean about it, and then 9/11, it became justifiable to take out Saddam in many people's minds. At least on the Republican side.....

I feel a group hug coming on..... !! Now, isn't that better?? One of the things I like about you, BJean, is that no matter how heated things get in our debates, you always help end them in a nice way, and we all get to leave with the feeling that we now understand the other side a little better. Thank you! P.S. Elena, you have no reason to question your debate style... you do just fine and express from your heart. Keep it going!

Good point, Chris. I remember hearing about Saddam's rape rooms, used by him and his two evil sons. They could just pick up any woman on the street, take her back, use and abuse her for as long as they want, then kill or abandon her. If she lived, she was then considered "used" and her life ruined. I also have seen some of the torture chambers they used routinely, for anyone who disagreed with them. Hundreds of thousands of innocent people died in them. My son was a Marine and still has military contacts and can tell some incredible stories. He is currently in Afghanistan and sees some amazing stories there, also.