L8BloomR

BJean, I make it a point to extricate myself from a "debate" when it deteriorates into black and white thinking (the your-side-is-all-wrong-in-every-way type of thinking), because there can be no understanding at that point. You just painted Republicans, Christians and right wingers as all the same--- all have evil intentions, selfish and wicked. No one I know in those catagories fits those stereotypes at all. I am sorry you can't see that all sides in any issue in this country share responsibility in the problems and successes. Health care has so many thorny and complicated issues .... such as horrendously high lawsuit payouts that have driven doctors out of their practices and have driven up the cost of insurance. But when anyone proposes capping those payouts, other people scream "foul" and so nothing gets done. I don't know why it is so hard to see that there is no easy fix, but even saying THAT will get one slammed for "insensitivity" so I give up. I was hoping we could debate various ways we could remedy the healthcare mess, but anything other than a total capitualation to your side seems to be the only way to keep the discussion civil. Have a nice rant!

Oh wow, can I relate to you guys!!! I am at 6cc and the only restriction I have ever felt was twice, once while eating chicken and once while eating salmon. Popcorn, complete steak dinners, and everything else goes down just fine, in large amounts (on my bad days)!! I have kept hope but it is getting harder to keep it from fading, since I just weighed and found I gained back 10 of the 33 pounds I lost since my band surgery last Nov. I go for another fill next week and hope I can get enough to make this work. I have heard, though, that the first year is the toughest for the 10cc folk in relation to amount of weight lost, but that the 2nd year we catch up with the other guys whose weight loss has slowed way down. So there is that to cling to, I guess.... We just all need to hang in there and keep encourging each other!

I don't understand the demonization of people who say they are not wild about the idea of universal health care. What makes one say with such certainty that these people don't want to help anyone; and that in fact they would rather see people die if it means increasing their taxes? My goodness, I don't know anyone like that. If there is a lack of enthusiasm I think it is because only one solution is ever discussed....why does it have to be either/or? Most Americans (according to recent polls) are more satisfied with their health care than people in other countries, so why dismantle the entire system because it doesn't work for everyone? Why not look into other options....some sort of low-cost or no-cost plan that could be offered to people with low incomes. Hospitals, at least in my state, are not allowed to turn anyone away without insurance; if that is not a country-wide law, then it should be. I remember when Hilliary Clinton tried to implement a universal plan--- there was much discussion about people not being able to chose their own doctor, different pay plans for different levels of care, etc. It was very confusing and a little scary for many people. This is a very complicated issue and I think looking at all the angles before embracing something wholeheartedly does not make someone hard-hearted or evil. Obviously, something needs to be done.... and that will only happen if all people and all solutions are looked at.

"Forefathers" usually means the early framers of our Constituation, the early settlers of the U.S., or our early blood relatives...so for most of us our forefathers are not "indians." This is the Rants and Raves section where people need to feel free to state their opinion without being called a "member of the KKK" or anything similiar. Your hostility is what appears to be "getting out of hand." Please don't take someone's stand on an open opinion poll as a personal attack. You can state your feelings about this subject just like anyone else and I am sure you wouldn't want to be called names if and when you do.

I agree wholeheartedly, Gadgetlady!

Lucy, I am trying to find out where I read this. I remember it was a few weeks ago, just before the debut of "Sicko". I saw the study in my newspaper and online on a news website, but cannot find either one now. The reason it gave for so many young people not buying into their company's healthcare program was that they preferred spending their $$ on other things...also because young people feel "immortal" and think they won't get sick. Really wealthy people feel that their money is better invested in other things and if perchance they get sick, they will have plenty of money to pay their bills. Yeah, it doesn't make sense, but that was the finding. As soon as I have more free time, I will search even harder for this info....

P.S. I am basically staying out of this discussion because I don't know how I feel about universal health care. I have an HMO that I am very happy with. I have excellent doctors, and have never been refused treatment for anything. On the other hand, I am sad for anyone who does not have my good experiences, and would be happy to see all people have health care. But I do know that the statistics used by Derrick earlier I also saw, in my paper and online, about the number of people on the "uninsured" list that are there only because they have chosen to not have it. Some were young and didn't feel they needed it, and some were so wealthy they felt they could pay for their treatment if and when they needed it. I have searched online and in my paper and can't find out who or what did the study, so for now I have to just reiterate that I read it but can't substantiate it. Also, I am in the health care field and have seen the phenomenal amount of waste and fraud in Medicare and other health programs. The thought of another new bureaucracy makes me shudder and wonder how we could possibly afford it without making huge increases in our tax system. So I am conflicted....

I wasn't "thinking" anything...I just didn't understand your response to this statement and couldn't figure out what the question was. So I take it that you felt that Cuba was the standard being used to judge universal health care and you didn't think that was right. Ok. Got it.

Uh, I know that I am jumping in here pretty late in the game, but I don't get the confusion regarding this statement. Are you doubting the fact that Cuba is below the U.S. on the W.H.O. list of countries with the best health care? Cuba is #39, the U.S. is #37. (That statistic is even on Michael Moore's own website.) Or is there another issue I am not getting?

I live in Oak View and work in Ventura..... would love to meet, also!! Karen

Hi BJean, Don't you just LOVE the R & R section? I can agree with you wholeheartedly on one thread and disagree with you vehemently on another.... I think Ann Coulter is great! She "takes a lickin' and keeps on tickin'" and I like that in a person. MY vote on this thread would be for Michael Moore.... ugh and double-ugh.

And thanks for sharing yours, mrspruett. This is an awesome group even if we do get worked up sometimes! I do sense that most of us really want to understand each other, yet stereotypes crop up at times and that can make empathizing more difficult. Thanks for your efforts in this area!

A great response, BJean.... well-stated and also compassionate. Thanks for saying so well what many of us have been trying to say.

Try a Google search for a German Shepherd rescue in your area. They usually have lists of people looking for a G.S. puppy and may be willing to take these for you. Good luck.... and bless you for feeding the mom and sheltering the puppies! I help rescue and work with abandoned/abused German Shepherds and have 3 of my own. You are doing a wonderful thing!

Oh my gosh, it is late.... good night..... :notagree

Oh my, it appears you haven't read any of my posts. This whole thread started because someone was shocked by Bush's commutation of Libby's prison sentence. The gist of my posts is that all presidents have done them and I don't like them, either. But to put them into perspective, I (and others) posted a link to remind people that Clinton has done them, also, as well as other presidents. I said AGAIN that I don't like pardons because they make the president look dirty, but it is within each president's power to make them and there is nothing we can do about it. I never called anyone "bad", and there was no discussion of Clinton's actual presidency until you brought up the comparison between the two. My goodness!

No red herring with my post....we were discussing pardons and comparing them between presidents. Bringing the war into a discussion of similiar presidential pardons is what I would call "tossing a red herring." And I wasn't trying to "rebut" anything, I was putting presidential pardons into perspective. This is apples and oranges and doesn't make sense to me, either....

mrspruett, I agree. Mexico is a beautiful country with lots of natural resources. I think much of the poverty comes from a corrupt government and judicial system there. There is a vast difference between the "haves" and the "have nots". If something could change that system...some way for the wealth to at least trickle down to the others, much of our immigration problem would be solved. As it is, there is no incentive for the government to improve the living conditions of the poor since so much money is coming into their country from our country (and others) via the immigrants--- which promotes keeping things as it is.

I found this interesting.....According to a June 5th Newsweek article, "Stepping Over the Line," "Mexicans cheered President Fox on sending soldiers down to their southern border to lessen immigration. Since 1974, a person caught sneaking into Mexico can spend up to 2 years in prison. The Mexican government has only given legal status to 15,000 foreigners without papers in the past 5 years." Can anyone explain why this policy is OK for Mexico while at the same time we are criticized for trying to tighten our border even a little?

I believe Libby's father called him that as a baby, for the way he "scooted" around.... We have a famous moon-walking astronaut named "Buzz" (Aldrin), and I know quite a few "Buddy"s, a couple of them very prominent locally, who prefer that over their real name. I dunno, I guess we Americans love nicknames! :biggrin1:

Yes, it is hard to make people understand that shopping at places like my Dad does promotes the need for people who will work for low wages. These bargain stores sell products made by people in other countries who earn almost nothing for their work, therefore they can sell them so cheaply. My Dad wants people HERE to make top dollar for their work, but he refuses to buy products at the prices required to make that happen. I cannot make him see the hypocrisy in that. As long as we shop "price" instead of "Made in the U.S.A.", we are doomed with this situation, I think. :faint:

There is another couple of factors in all this: The unions and the bargain shoppers. The unions push for higher wages and full benefits for workers, but the public wants low prices and high quality in the goods it buys. Something has to give! My father is a union man....believes in them wholeheartedly. He thinks everyone (regardless of age) should make a living wage. But he shops at the 99¢ store and refuses to pay the going price for almost anything. Do you see the problem? I think many employers use illegals to help keep their costs down so they can compete in the global economy. I also think that is why the government looks away even when it knows it is going on. I don't see how this can be fixed without changing people's mindset...

I totally agree with you here, lisah. I think most of us are guilty of this, myself included. I'm glad you posted...

Thanks for the reminder.... maybe all is not lost!! :biggrin1:

Yes, most presidents do a bunch of pardons when they leave office, but I believe Clinton did many of his thoughout his time in office. I posted a link earlier in this thread showing the dates and details of his pardons. Bush has done the least amount of pardons of any recent president, I believe. I don't like pardons. They just seem so dirty--- particularly Clinton's, since some involved his brother, friends of his brother, bomb-making terrorists, and the husband of a big contributor to his campaign. Before some of you "flame" me, I don't like this one of Bush's, either, but do not know the details of any others he has done. I will say it again. I don't like pardons.... ANY pardons. But it is within the rights of any president to do them no matter what any of us think.