KartMan

Ok. Let’s start with the multi trillion dollars that we are wasting in Iraq and Afghanistan. Next I would like some way to pay for Medicare Part D and the massive unjustified Bush Tax cut that only helped the top 5%. Once we get done figuring out what to do with all that waste, let’s take a look at what we have left. Heck, we might even have a surplus.

This is exactly the kind of absolutism from religious people that baffles and frightens me. I find it utterly absurd that someone would believe without question in something that just seems wrought with questionable facts, distorted timelines, fantasy, conjecture (feel free to insert other adjectives), etc. I guess that is why they call it faith rather than fact. It is certainly your right to believe in it to your heart’s desire – I just wish you would stop trying to impose that faith on the rest of society thru laws.

The problem with that argument is that it is a slippery slope that gives any people the right to take what they want as long as it is in the name of God. The pilgrims came here and took the land of the Indians to form a “nation under God” (as you remind us of always). The Israelis took Palestine from the Palestinians. Europeans and early Americans were “Gods People” and had a God given right to take the barbarian slaves. The early church took lands, riches, and lives form the masses in the name of God. I could give you a hundred more examples of cases in which “God’s People” borrowed (took, stole, misappropriated, etc.) from unbelievers (other believers, heathens, faceless people, etc.). Since I don’t believe in God in the way that you do, I certainly don’t think everything belongs to him (regardless of what the Bible says). Even if I did, how could any man arbitrate how God might want his “things” portioned out? “Things” don’t belong to God, and they were not being given to God when they were “stolen”. I don’t think that the people that lost those things believe that God benefitted from their loss. A failing that you seem to always stumble on is that you try prove things based on what the bible says. The problem with this is that I reject the writings of the bible, so you can’t use that source as proof with me. I on the other hand can point out the inaccuracies, inconsistencies, and outright contradictions in the bible because you have already professed to believe in it fully (especially the parts that suit your jaded political/social view).

Thanks! Actually, I’m at about 14% Body Fat now, but who’s counting I’m actually pretty much where I wanted to be with weight and am now focusing on toning up various parts of my body. I love the new me, especially how I look in “normal” clothes. People that didn’t know me before say there is no way I was ever fat. They say I just look like a “normal” guy to them. The band is still working great! It pretty much curbs my appetite and keeps the weight off, and the gym is doing wonders with filling out all the right places. I feel like I have a new lease on life:thumbup::thumbup:

Mince the words in any way you like, all three of these look like they are justifying stealing to me: Exodus 3:21-22, 12:35-36 & Luke 19:29-34 The passage from Luke (isn’t this supposed to be the kinder gentler New Testament?) is particularly troubling: Luke 19:29-34 29As he approached Bethphage and Bethany at the hill called the Mount of Olives, he sent two of his disciples, saying to them, 30"Go to the village ahead of you, and as you enter it, you will find a colt tied there, which no one has ever ridden. Untie it and bring it here. 31If anyone asks you, 'Why are you untying it?' tell him, 'The Lord needs it.' " 32Those who were sent ahead went and found it just as he had told them. 33As they were untying the colt, its owners asked them, "Why are you untying the colt?" 34They replied, "The Lord needs it."

Except when it totally contradicts itself as it does here: But every woman shall borrow of her neighbour, and of her that sojourneth in her house, jewels of silver, and jewels of gold, and raiment: and ye shall put them upon your sons, and upon your daughters; and ye shall spoil the Egyptians. (Exodus 3:22)

Ok, this started out as a rebuttal to an argument on the Healthcare Thread, but I realized that I was digressing to my Antiwar stance rather than my Pro HealthCare stance so I decided to start anther topic. You know, if we would have taken our Peace Dividend at the end of the Cold War and invested it here at home we could have had a 21st century information architecture, a completely revitalized bridge/rail/and road system, universal health care, top notch education, etc. Instead we poured even more money into defense and have little to show for it. In 2008, the US spent 41.5% of the world’s military dollars, the next ten countries combined spent only 21.1% of the world military capital, China spent a tiny 5.8%. Now keep in mind these are not percentages of GDP, they are percentages of the world military spend. What has all that spending gotten us? Let’s take a look back to 1980 which is about when the USSR started to collapse. - We lost a Marine Barracks in Lebanon in 1983 - We invaded Grenada in 1983 (huge victory) - We invaded Panama in 1989 (I guess we won… Wait, what did we win?) - We failed to oust Saddam Husain in the first Gulf War in 1990 - Cold War ends approximately 1991 - Blackhawk down in 1993 - World Trade Center Bombing 1993 - We occupied Haiti in 1994 - We were part of NATO in Bosnia/Herzegovina in 1996 (success?) - Khobar Towers Bombing in Saudi Arabia 1996 - Our embassy was bombed in Kenya in 1998 - USS Cole attacked in Yemen in 2000 - We were attacked on 9/11/2001 - We wrongly attacked Iraq in 2003 - We can’t get out of Afghanistan - North Korea has Nukes - Iran is very close to having Nukes How much money are we talking about here? Well, if we look at data from 2008, discretionary spending was $941B, of that, Defense was $553B (plus $306B in an off budget supplemental). So in 2008 we spent more than double the money on defense than on EVERYTHING else the government did that year. Really? More than double? Yes, really. This is where your money is going. Eisenhower was right, beware the Military Industrial Complex. You know what I think? I think we should have a draft. Compel everyone to go over there and fight if it’s that important. I bet any misguided support for these stupid wars would dry up if we all had to participate in them with our own blood. In fact, I think we would be less likely to even get into these situations with a draft. War SHOULD be hard. Every single US soldier that dies over there should have an impact here at home, and it should hurt your soul, if it doesn’t then you are NOT close enough to the issue and have no business saying we should be there. Why are we even there? We can’t win, so why even stay? The goal in Afghanistan was to oust Al Qaeda, ok done – they have left Afghanistan and so should we. Now before you folks on the Right start beating me up with the flag I will remind you that I served honorably in the military during the first Gulf War (6 years, US Navy).

count me in that camp

Agreed! I would like to see Obama make it through to two terms, but if doing the right things (ending the wars, passing healthcare, fixing the financial system, ending Don’t Ask Don’t Tell, repealing DOMA, climate change, etc.) means he gets voted out then so be it. He is just one man, I think the principals are more important than the man.

In my opinion it should absolutely involve you and other women. I believe we should have a draft for every able bodied American under 25 years old (male and female). People over 25 should have some stateside contribution. If this stupid war is cause for some to suffer, we should all suffer until we end it. Again, I don’t consider myself a pacifist, I do believe there is at times justification for war. But justified or not, the burden of war should be shouldered by the entire population (as it was in WWII and WWI) otherwise we don’t really have a vested interest in the agony of the war. I personally believe both of these particular wars are unjust and are being fought at the peril of our nation. If more Americans had skin in the game (if it was them, their sons and daughters, or their family dying over there) these wars would have succumb to public opinion a long time ago. War is hell and it should be seen for what it is. 20 year old kids are dying every day over there. Many more are coming home with missing limbs, PTSD, brain injuries and countless other injuries. I could care less about the long line of people waiting for the best deal at Wal-Mart on Black Friday, the news should be showing the agony and suffering this senseless war is causing to our young soldiers.

I don’t know how they are going to be paid for, but I do know that conservative estimates are coming in at about $100B per year for Afghanistan alone. $100B!!! What the hell do we get for $100B a year? We have no strategic interest in Afghanistan, we have no reason to be there, and we absolutely can’t “win” there (even if we quadrupled the proposed troop increase). Keep in mind that the Soviets had an order of magnitude more troops there than we do and were by all accounts brutal in their attempts at insurgent suppression and didn’t even come close to winning there. What makes anyone think we have even a chance to do anything different there? As far as I am concerned we did what we set out to do there, we got Al Qaeda out of the country, now we should leave too. What Americans don’t seem to realize is that there is a significant portion of the Afghan population that sees us as nothing more than conquerors and occupiers (which we are) and will fight for generations until we give up (just like the Soviets, British, and Alexander before us). What could we do with that $100B/year instead? Well, the current Senate health care proposal costs about $85B per year. Sounds like a much better use of our money to me. How many American lives could be saved each year with health care? How many American lives will be lost each year that we are in Afghanistan? It’s a no brainer to me.

That is so great!!!! 100lbs is a huge milestone and one that i am happy to share with you. Keep up the great work!

I agree with you on everything you said and commend you for your activism. It is important though for us to call out our own too or we are just as bad as the people that fell under the might of Bush/Cheney. That is one reason that I have said form the beginning that while I do support Obama, my support only goes as far as his ability to do what he was elected for. If he can’t get us out of these wars, pass health care, and re-regulate the financial industry then he will lose my support and should not expect to be re-elected. Just to be clear though, I would much rather he be a one term president by getting trounced by the Republicans (because of doing the right thing) than form crumbling while in office and getting the boot via primary from the left.

I think there is a flaw in what the charts say what we can consume in a “normal” day and not gain weight. I too am 6’ tall and will usually gain weight if I consume over 2000 calories in a day. I have been rigorously counting calories since I was banded 2/18/09. Before I started working out, I consumed 1200-1500 calories a day and lost 2-4 pounds per week. Now that I work out regularly (4-6 days a week) I consume about 1800 - 2000 calories a day and am relatively flat with weight loss, maybe still losing about .5 lbs a week. This is fine with me because I am actually under my goal weight. But I know I can’t go by what the charts say and eat over 2000 a day and still maintain. As for stretching the pouch, I worry about that one too. Sometimes the food is just really good or the social setting is such that I want to keep eating. It is really a chore to fight the urge to eat (even though I am clearly not hungry). It’s only happened a few times to me, but when I push past my limit I always worry that I have damaged my pouch.

Just to be fair, the economic crisis has been brewing for a long time and is not entirely Bush’s fault (keep in mind, I am not a fan of Bush). Our lousy standing with the world, the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan and our crumbling infrastructure are certainly his fault but the economy is a little more complicated. I would agree that the majority of the blame should go to him (Bush) for not keeping jobs here, letting the energy crises happen, wasting trillions of dollars on unnecessary wars, passing harmful tax cuts, and letting Wall Street deregulate to the point of complete anarchy. However, the roots of deregulation can be traced back to the Clinton Administration. Larry Summers (currently a key figure in Obama’s administration) and Robert Ruben started a lot of it when they halted the Glass Steagall Act of 1933 and other important regulatory protections. Obama should get rid of Summers (and Geithner because he is way too close to Wall Street) and really put in meaningful consumer protection and regulatory controls back in place.

I don’t quite agree with that. I think they have the hearts and minds of the American people, but they may be a little short on the actual voters in America. The silent middle and progressives came out in record numbers to vote for Obama largely on his plan to finally address healthcare. Unfortunately, they seem to think their work was done in getting him elected, obviously that is not the case. They need to continue their support of him to get the legislation passed or it will fail yet again. The people that really want healthcare passed need to be just as vocal as the opposition. They need to rebut every argument and make their voices heard. Most importantly, they need to remind their Democratic Senators and Representatives that they will be primaried (I don’t think that is really a word, but you get my point) and tossed if they don’t vote for this legislation. Obama needs to know too that this is HIS issue, if he drops the ball on it he will be tossed as well (and he should be).

Cleo’sMom and Larraine, my hat is off to you two. I don’t have the time or patience to go back and rebut all of the ludicrous ranting from the other side on this thread but you guys have done a remarkable job. Keep up the good work. We have the numbers out in the country and in Congress. We don’t have to convince the Right Wing, they will never join us. The Republicans (save 1 or 2 in the House and maybe 1 in the Senate) are against anything Obama is for, so they are out too. The folks that need convincing are the people that Obama helped to put in power, the Democrats. They better figure out who is buttering their bread or they may find themselves without a job in 2010 and 2012. They waivered on this very topic in 1994 and they lost both the House and Senate because of it, I hope history does not repeat itself. Bill Clinton took them to the woodshed the other day in regard to that and they still don’t get it. If they screw this up I suggest we all get behind MoveOn.Org and other groups that have threatened to Primary Democrats that do not support HC Reform. In fact, if Obama is not strong enough to get this passed we should Primary him too. Enough is enough.

So how long have you been insane, irrational and thoughtless? J/K, you know I love your posts :thumbup:

Apples, that is the point. War should be a hard decision and should affect us all equally. I think far too many people that want us to continue fighting around the world have no vested interest in terms of fighting and dying. If war is right and just (and I do believe it is at times) then we should all share in the cost through our collective blood and treasure. I think going into Afghanistan to oust Al Qaeda was right and just at the time that we went in. Al Qaeda has since left Afghanistan and so should we. We have no reason to be there anymore and in the end, all we will have to show for it will be more of our precious soldiers fighting and dying. We went into Iraq based on lies and propaganda, we should not have gone then and should not be there now. If we can’t justify putting our sons and daughters at risk in war then we should not put others at risk either. If fighting over there is not good enough for some of us, it is not good enough for any of us.

Then we should do the draft in a different way. I don’t have hard evidence, but I’m sure with some digging I could show that rules were changed in the draft for Vietnam versus WWII. I know for a fact that many famous and wealthy Americans served, fought, and died in WWII. Whatever was done differently in Vietnam should not be allowed to happen again. A draft should be a way to equalize the pain and suffering across the whole population, people should not get breaks because of their connections or status (to be fair, Clinton got out of serving too).

I voted for him because I thought for once we might get somebody in office that does what is right and not just what collects votes. Health Care is right and he should just go for it. These wars are wrong and he should end them The only way there will be enough outcry for to get us out of them is when they start impacting everyone equally. Far too many of the soldiers dying over there are from rural areas and the working poor. If a war is right and just we should all pay the price for it collectively. More often than not (and certainly not for these two) war is neither right nor just and people won’t put up with them if they are compelled to participate.

I started to jump back into this topic but found myself digressing to Antiwar stuff, so I started another thread for that. http://www.lapbandtalk.com/f80/should-we-have-draft-105697/

I for one wish we could do away with labels and focus more on issues. I supported Obama in the election and for the most part think he has done a great job so far considering the colossal mess we were in to begin with. But I will not for a second give him a pass just because I agree with him on some things, because he is a democrat, or because he is black. See Patty, I have disagreements with him as well, but they are just not the same issues as yours. Here are a few things I would like him to focus on. 1) Get Health Care passed (I wish we could have Single Payer, but I will settle for a Government Option) 2) Get us out of Iraq and Afghanistan 3) Become an honest broker in the Middle East (stop being subservient to Israel) 4) Close Guantanamo 5) Repeal DOMA and Don’t Ask Don’t Tell 6) Make significant strides in alternative energy 7) Stop being the World’s Police Force. If the rest of the world doesn’t want to pay for the world’s wars why should we? Most of Europe has Universal Health Care right now partly because they spend a tiny fraction of their GDP on the military whereas we spend more than the rest of the world combined. 8) Pass real election reform. Make national elections publicly funded and get ALL special interest out of the pockets of candidates. 9) Stop picking and choosing which petty dictators to prop up. Why do we allow the atrocities of the Egyptians and the Saudis yet despise Iran, Cuba, and Venezuela? If one is bad, they are all bad. If one doesn’t feel our wrath, none should.

Or maybe they were terrified of Palin being a 72 year old heartbeat away from the Presidency.