KartMan

Oops, you just found another paradox Alexandra, or mabey its just a contrdiction - I get so confused sometimes.

Well bless you Patty, you have made me speechless. I don’t even know how to respond to that other than to say it is the biggest bunch of bull I’ve ever heard.

Odd answer, why would you assume that Christianity has a monopoly on that? Here are a few: Judaism Christianity Islam Several “Nature Religions” Greek Mythology

I don’t have a problem with Bush’s Christianity (nor Obama’s). I do though have a problem with his (Bush’s) seeming to politicize religion. Just a few examples from his administration: - Referring to the war on terrorism as a “Crusade” - Stopping stem cell research - Preventing family planning groups from discussing abortion overseas - Ashcroft hiding the breasts of the “The Spirit of Justice” statue during speeches at the Justice Department - Allowed the government to get way too far into the faith based initiatives program (this was actually started by Clinton, and seems like it will be partially continued by Obama:cursing:) - etc., etc., etc. He did plenty of things that are not based on religion that I despise as well: - Condoned the use of torture - Started an unnecessary war in Iraq - Took his eye off the ball in Afghanistan - Allowed the good will the world had for us to erode after 9/11 - Allowance of domestic spying - etc., etc., etc. Glad to see that we can at least agree in principle on the concept of the separation of church and state.

I don’t really like to pin myself down to one label. But given this definition, I would most closely align myself with “agnostic” with strong leanings towards “skeptic”.

The reason I bring it is up is that it seems like the religious like to have it both ways. They would have us believe that God is all knowing, at the same time they tell us that we have free will and that we need to choose to be with God in order for us to get to heaven. My brain just doesn’t work that way, its issues like this that make me the skeptic that I am.

Well that is the paradox then isn’t it? If he is all knowing and KNOWS we are going to choose to sin, then we really don’t have free will do we? We are destined to do exactly what is written for us.

Actually, I have no problem with the fact that many of the framers of the Constitution and the Bill of Rights were influenced by Christianity (certainly not all were, but definitely more so than today). In fact, I don’t even have a problem with today’s politicians being influenced by religion. I do think though that there is a lot of pandering on the part of today’s politicians (I don’t think they are quite as religious as they would have the voters believe). My only problem is when they try to make or change laws to adhere to their narrow religious beliefs. We are a nation of many faiths (including non-believers) and our government is set up as a secular democracy, more importantly it is a secular representative democracy. I am comforted by the fact that since it is representative, people like Patty will never be able to have any significant control (well, hopefully not after we experienced Bush) of our government because most people here just don’t believe that religion should be allowed to have any influence over our government.

You started this conversation by saying that you wanted to see this country get back to it’s moral roots as espoused by our founding fathers. I am merely pointing out to you that those founding fathers were no more moral than us. They were humans just like us and they had flaws just like us. Since I am not Christian and do not believe in God the way that you do, I do not believe in sin. I believe we all do good and bad things. I believe it is up to society to determine what is right and wrong. Until God gets a seat on the Supreme Court, we are bound as a people by the laws that are on the books. I for one am very happy with the direction that the Court has taken us in the last century, that is to clarify that we are a secular democracy and that the separation between church and state clearly goes both ways as it is written in the First Amendment.

Luckily for us, the Salem Witch Trials happened in 1692-1693 in Colonial Massachusetts, well before the Constitutional Convention of 1787 (from which our federal government was derived).

Lets just be clear on what “founding fathers” means. It could mean as you have said, everyone that came here on a boat (well, except for the slaves – they don’t count) in the 1600’s to start a religious government, or it could mean the people of the colonies that revolted against Great Briton in the Revolutionary war. I take it to mean the framers of the Constitution, the men that attended the Constitutional Convention in 1787. Maybe we should take a look at their Moral Character: 1) Abraham Baldwin (Georgia) Slave Owner, known murderer 2) John Blair (Virginia) Slave Owner, had black mistresses 3) William Blount (North Carolina) Slave Owner, kicked out of the Senate, charged with Real Estate crimes 4) Jacob Broom (Delaware) had indentured servants 5) Pierce Butler (South Carolina) Illegal Alien, Slave Owner, wrote the Constitution’s “Fugitive Slave” language 6) George Clymer (Pennsylvania) stole Indian land 7) Jonathon Dayton (New Jersey) accused of treason along with Aaron Burr 8) William Few (Georgia) Slave Owner and breeder 9) Thomas FitSimmons (Pennsylvania) Illegal Alien 10) Alexander Hamilton (New York) Bastard son of a prostitute, Illegal Alien, criminal, died in a dual with Aaron Burr 11) George Washington (Virginia) Alcoholic, suspected of homosexuality, Slave Owner, 12) Ben Franklin (Pennsylvania) womanizer, fathers several children out of wedlock, had sex with a 15 year old These are just a few examples of the moral Fiber of the oft revered “Founding Fathers”. I don’t really have a problem with these guys, they were leaders in their day, some were good, others were downright scoundrels. The point is that these men were ordinary people, no more or less moral than the people (or politicians) of today.

Patty, I for one have never claimed to be an Atheist.. The way I understand it, Atheism prescribes a firm belief that there is NO god. I consider myself to be Agnostic, I understand that to mean that I don’t know (or care) if there is one. I am indifferent to there being a god, it doesn’t change the way I live and act. I have a strong moral grounding, I try my best to be fair to others, and I have faith that more often than not my fellow man will be fair in return. I also firmly believe that every person has every right to practice religion as they see fit and all religions are of equal value to me (one is no more right or wrong in my opinion). The only problems I have with religion is when they (people like you) try to interfere with the rest of us or to change our laws, oh and I really don’t like it when they knock on my door at 9am on a Saturday to tell me how great god is. So in short Atheism should not be THE religion of America, and neither should ANY other. We are a secular democracy with people of every race and religion in our midst, no one race or religion should have any more sway in this country than any other.

Lets just say for the sake of argument that you are right in that (you’re not, but lets just say you were). This country is a representative democracy with 3 separate but equal branches that has evolved over its 200+ year history. As a people we have recognized that slavery was wrong and we abolished it, we came to realize that women have every much right as men to vote, we have implemented laws to end the evils of segregation, etc., etc. We have also clarified that the majority of Americans no more want government in THEIR religion than do they want religion in THEIR government. Whatever you may THINK the First Amendment was about at the time of it’s writing, today the vast majority of us (both religious and not) want their to be a clear separation between church and state. Since we are a representative democracy, you certainly have the right to try to get people that think like you elected, they in turn can appoint your type of judges and you may be able to get what you want that way (good luck with that though).

Patty, As I have described to you before, the pilgrims were NOT the founders of this country, besides not all of those early arrivals came here for religious reasons anyway. The founders of this country (the ones that fought the revolution and wrote the constitution) did it to escape the tyranny of a remote imperial government. It had everything to do with representative government, ending repressive taxes, freedom, and liberty. The formation of this country had nothing to do with establishing any sort of religious state. And don’t even get me started on the morals of these men versus today’s politicians, I’ll save that discussion for another post. It is true that many of the leaders at the time were of the Christian faith (certainly not all were). However, men like Jefferson and Madison were wise enough to implement the separation of church and state in the First Amendment. Later, the Supreme Court helped to clarify this principle further to help ensure that we were and would continue to be a secular democracy. This amendment does two very important things. First, it ensures that individually we have every right to practice ANY religion we choose (or none at all) and the government can not suppress that right. Second, it ensures the NO religion (yours or any other) can have ANY influence over government. That is the core of a secular democracy. It means that we are a country of laws made up and agreed to by the voting public and its representative government, not one in which its laws are derived from any religious dogma. You have told me many times that you abhor organized religion. If you had your Utopia and religion was allowed to influence government, what makes you think the leaders of this government would implement the laws according to YOUR religious principals? From what I have seen, you have a pretty specific set of beliefs, I would think that you would be doing all that you could to prevent government form stepping on those beliefs. A wise person once said “Be careful what you wish for, you might just get it”.

Well, if you do as with weight loss after surgery as you did before you should do great. Hope the re-do went ok:thumbup:

Of course the prophecy was written this way and of course it coming true. Why? Not because it was written by God, but by wise men that knew that one day smarter people than the sheep of the day would come along that would realize that what was being preached to them was hogwash. The hope in the prophecy is that modern believers (you) will recognize the prophecy as coming true and try to perpetuate the religion by telling everyone (the rest of us) “look the prophecy is coming true”.

For me, the weight goal is tied to my BMI goal. 25 BMI is the upper end of normal so I shot for just under that as my goal. I have had (and have) mini goals on the way. My first mini was to move from Obese to Overweight and I made it (currently at 29.3 BMI). My next mini goal is to get to less than 215lbs which is the lowest I was ever able to get to on a regular diet. Interestingly enough, 185lbs puts me at a 24.4 BMI. It is interesting because that is the weight I was when I got out of boot camp when I was 18 years old. Looking back at pictures from then I think I was too skinny, so we’ll just have to see if that is the right weight for me. I’m curious because I see goals of 27 or 29 BMI in people’s tickers and wonder why one would set a goal that still puts them in an unhealthy range. It seems to me that the risks of setting a goal like that is that you might just attain it and stop there.

Holli, My heart goes out to you. I have 3 children that are thankfully very healthy. They have had the normal illnesses along the way though and even those are heart wrenching to go through, I can’t imagine the pain you must feel with this situation.

How do you check your lean body mass?

I choose a civilized country that is neither pagan nor Christian but founded on secular laws agreed to by a majority of the people, does the term “secular democracy” mean anything to you? I don’t know the exact statistic, but something like 60ish% of the people in this country believe that abortion should be the choice of the mother and that religious values have no place in that decision unless the mother herself is the one expressing those values.

Mine is exactly 4 inches directly above my belly button. I don’t have a bra line, so I guess that part is irrelevant. I find that when I am walking I inadvertently poke it with my finger just to feel it. Sort of they way a pregnant lady rubs her belly, does anybody else do that:unsure:?

Before you go into surgery they give you a Hepron shot in your abdomen and it hurts a little more than you might expect. But worse than it hurting is that it leaves a nasty bruise that doesn’t go away for like two weeks. Heck, this thing looked worse than my scars. Oh, and they shave your belly while you are on the table, well they do that to us guys anyway not sure about you ladies. I don’t really have much hair on my belly, but they hacked it off anyway. Tummy itched for a few days while it grew back.

It’s also nice to hear it from other people. Everyone around me is commenting on how obvious the weight loss is. My favorite was from my fiancé, she noticed that my rib cage is starting to curve while lying in bed. Before, I was sort of barrel chested or spherical if that makes sense. Now she says that while I am lying on my side she can see a definite arch to my mid section (yes men can be vain about these things too ).

And don’t forget that while men (er, I mean boys) can produce sperm at 11-13 doesn’t mean that they are at all mentally capable of bringing a child into this world. Just the mental capacity of the child (the parent) should be reason enough to make abortion viable not to mention all the horrible medical reasons that have been brought to light here. Patty has already conceded that when the mother’s life is at risk an abortion may be a viable option. Lets just for the sake of argument say that that narrow allowance is all we have to work with: 1) The medical risk of childbirth is probably far greater than the risk of abortion for a child mother 2) A child mother’s life is essentially over if she gives birth, she will be robbed of her childhood 3) In many cases a child mother is doomed to poverty, poor quality medical care, etc Too me, those 3 reasons and many others I haven’t even thought off should open Patty’s abortion door a little more. The point is, in this country it can’t be left to religion to decide this issue (or any issue for that matter). The narrow subset of people that feel that it should are on the wrong side of history and on the wrong side of our constitution. It is a medical and individual rights issue, nothing more nothing less.