KartMan

I’m gonna have to do some research on this topic (don’t like posting hearsay), but I heard or read a few days ago that the Bush Tax cuts cut out something like $2.3T in revenue plus another $230B in some sort of interest. That money would have covered TARP, Health Care, and a chunk of the Stimulus plan. Here is a link (this is one of several that are out there) The tax legislation enacted under President George W. Bush from 2001 through 2006 will cost $2.48trillion over the 2001-2010 period. This includes the revenue loss of $2.11 trillion that results directly from the Bush tax cuts as well as the $379 billion in additional interest payments on the national debt that we must make since the tax cuts were deficit-financed. [...] Over the upcoming decade (2010-2019), the costs of the health care proposals approved by three committees in the U.S. House of Representatives are projected to be around $1 trillion. (One committee trimmed the costs of its health care bill below that amount, but an official estimate of the cost reductions was not available at the time of this writing.)

Patty, I can’t disagree with you more on this topic. Whatever you “think” the founding fathers intended, what we ended up with is a Secular Democracy. No politician in their right mind would succeed in politics today trying to defend your point of view.

Well said. My only wish is that he would use his mandate to push even harder on the things that matter - The Economy - Health Care - The Environment - Foreign Policy - Green Technology - Don’t ask Don’t Tell I agree with Obama’s assessment that it is better to be a one term president than to allow these issues to fail. He should put his money where his mouth is and fight the good fight and get some sweeping change passed, damn what happens in 2012. As far as I see it, the only obstructionism that matters right now comes from within the Democratic Party. The Republicans have made themselves irrelevant and we are not capitalizing on it.

How about we copy the successful Single Payer or Government Option Health Care programs that rest of the Free, Industrialized, Western nations have all adopted and enjoy:confused:

And yet we voted Yes on Prop 8, go figure:cursing:

They were really good and I am really impressed with my results. My only complaint is that they don’t regularly do fills under fluoroscope. They were very quick to schedule once I decided (I was self pay so no insurance hurdles), great bedside manner the day of, I was out like a light for the surgery and in pretty good shape right after. Follow up has been fine. Support meetings are pretty light – only 5-8 people show up. If you are considering Mexico, I would take a look at Dr. Ortiz, he did my sister and I can’t say enough good things about him.

You are missing the point. I am not seeking God. I have looked before, found nothing compelling then moved on to where I am today. As I have said before, I am perfectly content with my indifference to God and religion. Why is it so important YOU that I find God anyway? I don’t think it’s important that you disbelieve what I disbelieve. I think you are wrong and that I am right, but I don’t lose any sleep over it. I just don’t get it, unless possibly you’re bringing me into the fold helps you to validate your own beliefs.

And I was saying that it is a moot point, or a red herring because we are paying for it already by their visits to the ER. And yet what he said was very much the truth. I’m sure you didn’t really mean that all the illegals are Mexican did you? Or did you mean that we should just deport all the illegals to Mexico? That reminds me of the great Stallone movie Demolition Man (ok, not so great), in which the best line of the movie is “in the future, all restaurants are Taco Bell”. In regards to fining and punishing the businesses, that in my opinion is the only way to curb illegal immigration. People in the third world have a horrid existence. No threat of jail or deportation from here is going to keep them away from good paying jobs. The only way to stop it is to end the jobs. The only way to do that is to put the enforcement on the source of the income, the businesses that hire them. C’mon now that’s being a bit facetious isn’t it? Most of us drive and don’t rerally have the option not to. Many of us travel for work, so we have to use a passport, etc.

Well, I think that analogy is a bit extreme but the concept is sound. We do evolve as a society over time. As we evolve, some things that are taboo today become acceptable tomorrow. Some of these things are good some things not so good. For example, it used to be “immoral” for a woman to be in mixed company with men, now it is commonplace (this is a good evolution). It used to be taboo to show your underwear in public, now young men feel compelled to let their pants hang low and show the world their boxers (this is devolution). Having said that, I can’t imagine a future where rape would ever be ok in the eyes of society. Aside form religion, we have social norms that make up our morality. For some people (you and the others of your faith) that morality comes from a belief in God – which is perfectly fine with me. For me, and many other non-believers, our morality (and I would argue that I have a strong moral compass) comes from a variety of sources including our friends, family, laws, etc.

Really? I don't come to that conclusion at all.

Sorry Patty, this whole line of thinking rings hollow to me. I had a whole rebuttal written, but it just came across as an attack on your faith, and that would be counter to my intention. I think we have a fundamental difference in core beliefs. The main difference in us though is not the difference in our beliefs but the voracity in which you want yours to be true. I don’t care if I am wrong or right. In fact, I am counting on being wrong. Actually, I am counting on us all being wrong. I think we are way too simple of creatures in this universe to even begin to fathom what it is all about.

I could try to be glib and say that much of the beauty in sunsets is not even natural, but caused by man made smog. But to answer your question more truthfully, no I don’t wonder that. I don’t think anyone or any God created it. I just think that it is nature in it’s splendor doing what nature does

Lots of things are mandatory, and they are not un-American at all – it’s called being a responsible citizen. Driving the speed limit is mandatory, wearing a seatbelt is mandatory, entering the country with your passport is mandatory, taking your shoes off at the airport is mandatory, etc,etc. Many of the things you cited are already legislated in some states, others probably should be. Sadly, if people are allowed to push the limits on these things then we all suffer for it. If a person chooses to not have insurance and they get sick and mount up thousands of dollars in medical bills, we all pay for it. All so that that person can have that “freedom” – that is wrong and bad for society, therefore THAT is un-American. I don’t like paying for insurance, I rarely get sick. I can’t remember the last time I went to doctor (I was self pay on LapBand, so that doesn’t count). But I have insurance in case I do get sick, that’s the way insurance works. Car insurance is the same way. I have paid for car insurance since 1985 and I have never had a claim, yet I still pay because it is the right thing to do.

Why does this bill have to be the enforcement vehicle for our Immigration Policy? I’m not saying I’m opposed to finding a way to ensure it doesn’t cover illegal aliens, I just don’t see it as that big a deal. To be frank, I would rather see them covered by the Public Option than via the emergency room anyway. We all agree that they can and do get service in the ER, we can also agree that service in the ER is the most expensive service there is… See my point? Immigration policy is a separate issue and should be addressed in other legislation. Oh wait, it has been dealt with, it is already illegal after all. How about some enforcement of existing laws (especially by going after the source, the people that hire them)? I could go off on a separate tirade about that anyway… - Who is the real criminal? The alien or the employer that hires them as cheap labor. - Most aliens pay some sort of payroll tax - They are doing work that we wont do because employers have cut wages so low that Americans wont do the work

I have done this Patty, a couple of times in fact. But each time I did it I found my own faith, but not God. Unfortunately for me, that faith doesn’t stick with me very long when there is no evidence to back it up. Faith is a beautiful thing for those that have it, I don’t envy that they have it – but I am happy for them that they do have it – do you understand what I am saying (I confuse my own self at times). I think the beauty of religion (or faith if you prefer to call it that) is the joy and peace that it brings to the person that has it. You may be surprised to hear though that I have that inner peace as well, just without faith in God, Religion, a book, etc, I have it just because of my own thoughts on life and the universe. Personally, I am content in believing that this is it for us. I think we live out our lives and do the best we can for ourselves, our family, our fellow man, and the rest of the universe then we are given back to that universe to be made again in some other way. I know this all sounds very deep and metaphysical, but I don’t really see myself as “deep”, that is just my own philosophy on the universe. I’m not espousing reincarnation in the sense that Hindu’s do. I just feel that we (actually our molecules) are nothing more than a part of the universe. Right now, those molecules make up the bodies we have today, tomorrow they might make up the bark of a tree, the fuzzy fur of a kitten, or the tail of a comet.

I don’t think it’s off the table either, I can’t think of any reason not to allow it. The Obama’s plan (via the Health Insurance Exchange) opens those doors, but it doesn’t stop there. Interstate competition is one way to increase competition, but the Public Option is another far better solution. Don’t cry for the Insurance companies, they will be fine even with the Public Option. Their little nugget in this bill is the Insurance Mandate. Do you know what that is? It is a provision that forces everyone (even the healthy 20 something’s) to purchase insurance. This is a boon for the Insurance companies because those people don’t get sick often. I think the Mandate is a great concept (and I'm not opposed to it), but it will be an even greater bonus for the Insurance Companies if they get that without the Public Option. Can you say Free Money?

So true Heather. I know there are some slow losers out there, I have sympathy for those of you in that category – I really do. But for some others that don’t seem to lose, or don’t keep it off, or whatever it is you are failing at - don’t give up and don’t give in. I have been real successful so far and the band has helped a ton, but I had to work too. On those days I fell down, I had to kick my own a$$ the next couple of days to get back on track. If I stalled for some reason, I looked hard at what I was eating and doing to find out how to kick start myself. This weekend was a good example. We had a party on Friday with homemade lasagna. OMG, I love lasagna. Wouldn’t you know it? It went right past the band, then I had Snacks and desert as well. Probably 4 times my normal caloric intake for the day. I dreaded getting on the scale Saturday morning (I assumed I would be up 5 lbs), I was up 2.4 lbs. Not great, but not tragic. I watched what I ate on Saturday and hit the Gym super hard. Sunday, half of the gain was gone and today the rest was almost gone too. In the past I might have let something like that be the catalyst for breaking a diet. Not anymore. Now I know I can have a “controlled” slip, but I MUST get right back on the routing right after. A slip doesn’t have to become a fall.

Ineresting:confused: What is that?

Totally agree with you, I just think it only fair to admit we have some bad apples in our barrel too. Not quite as bad in my opinion, and not quite as many, but they are there and we should not ignore them nor apologize for them.

You realize that this argument falls completely apart when you look at the success of FedEx and UPS relative to the Postal Service don’t you?

The problem I had with the speech was even before the speech. He should have championed a Single Payer System based on his overwhelming victory in November and then fallen back to a Public Option as a compromise. As it stands now, the Public Option is at risk because the Right has been allowed to muck up the issue with Red Herring issues. Now they have the Blue Dogs running scared and America will likely fall even further behind the rest of the industrialized world in terms of Health Care. As much as I like Obama, I am prepared to sacrifice him for this issue. I think he should spend every ounce of his political capital on getting Health Care thru (with a robust Public Option). Even if doing so costs him the election in 2012, I think the issue is that important for the country.

Unfortunately the Left does have some radicalized factions. The Animal Rights groups that blow up Pharmaceutical companies, the environmentalists that burned down a massive construction site here in SD because of the wood that was being used, etc, etc. As conscientious thinkers from the Left, I think it is our place to call those idiots out and not give them any credit for the cause that they are trying to move forward. There is no place in our society for that type of hatred within our social and political causes. Having said that, it is my belief that the radical component of the Left is far over shadowed by it’s brethren on the right. Here is a simple test. Ask 100 people if you think Left Wing radicals are more likely to blow up a building in this country or would you expect that from the Right. I will go out on a limb and say that hands down, people would be more inclined to believe that of the Right.