ELENATION

This debate is going nice today.... My faith definitely has influenced my thoughts on this subject , but only in some ways, my views on choice/prolife have been down many roads before ending where they are today. I understand that pro-choicers stand their position firmly because they believe they're defending the fundamental value of choice, which I think it's very valid and I understand that pro-lifers stand their position firmly because they believe they're defending the fundamental value of life and how can we not find that valid as well...? I also believe that life begins at conception and for me personally that does it... if I could be convinced that life begins at a later stage of a woman's pregnancy, then I would draw the line there, then I wouldn't have a problem with abortion until that momentl..., now if we assume that life begins at conception, then where does that put the issue of a woman's right to choose? I think choice is great, it is part of what makes us humans after all, I defend a woman's right to choose a career, schools or housing , I defend her choice to decide whether to have sex, or with whom, and how often, among many other choices, whether I agree with those choices is irrelevant, because they are her choices, but I don't think that absolute choice is a guaranteed human right because think about it, society already tells us that we cannot choose to abuse a child or to steal a car or that we can't choose to burglarize a home because that would be against the basic rights of the person who lives there.... I think that when our right to choose bumps against the right of another person to exist then our choice is blocked by the law, but of course this is all assuming that we believe that life begins at conception... which in my case I just had to accept there was a moral point at which a woman's right to choose would have to end because a her right to decide what to do with her body in this case goes against the right of the baby to exist..and I personally can't live with that... however, I'm responsible only for what goes on in my heart and my head because believe me I know that crisis with pregnancies are real and serious and plenty, I don't dismiss those horrific situations at all and I hope that other prolifers don't either because that would be unkind to say the least, I just don't think that is the case though, because it wouldn't make sense for someone to care so much for a baby's life and not care at all for the mother's life, makes no sense to me, but you know, ultimately more pro-lifers, should be helping women through unplanned pregnancies or in crisis situations. I do think that some and probably many pro-lifers do this already but more should....I think that pregnant women and babies both deserve the same kind of respect and much respect and we should make major efforts to help them.

I'll be happy to... I came back to this thread today as I noticed an e-mail notification showing that Snuffy brought up my name and my posts , so I felt I needed to answer, I believe I have commented to her posts once in the past other than today, never really had much interaction with her, so don't get all the personal attacks and some troll comment she made, even if we look at the dates we joined here, I've been in LBT for a long time, so for someone who joined just a few months ago here to call someone else a troll who posts regularly it's beyond ridiculous and unfair to say the least, the thread has indeed gotten very childish and not worth of further discussion right now, thank you for for the advise, you are a wise woman.

Well, I honestly don't care what "anyone" here thinks, I DID NOT mean it as a personal attack, I meant to say that saying the words "church goers" are not a sin, and that there are plenty of things that are wrong that we do, you, me and everyone else that I'm sure are truly sins, that IS what I meant, again, your perception and I don't care who else's perception if it's the same as yours was and is wrong. Just a few minutes ago you made a comment about parrot being an animal.... bla,bla.... and went on to say that it sounds like "someone that posts here...." well, I believe you were talking about me because I was the only one that was called that word, however when someone asked you, you said that you didn't address it to anyone in particular, it's hard for me to believe you, but if you say you didn't , then that's fine and I accept it. Please don't try to tell me what I actually meant in my previous post, as I won't try to tell you what I think you meant when you posted about a "little parrot" sometimes it's all a matter of perception.

You said that because I didn't think "church goers" was the best choice of words for people who attended church that YOU were going to confession, so I replied to you by saying to go ahead and do it if you wanted to, therefore you took what I said out of context, and how my response "sounded" to you was simply inaccurate and you decided to take it personal. I don't know why you think I'm being hypocritical... I believe I'm being truthful, but it's your right to think whatever you want, although I'm sure you are not going to keep this up since it rolls off your back like water....

I stand by everything I said regarding Tommy, in my opinion, he did come across rude and insulting and still keeps doing so...

OK, acting like a parrot? :biggrin: , I can't help but laugh at the comment...if agreeing with someone is what you or Tommy call acting like a parrot, then I'm proud to be one... and complementing Gadget was the least I could do, she did an absolute great job defending her views which are also mine and she did it in a way I could've never done it, what's wrong with me telling her that I think she is a good person? I think she is, so what? I have complemented others in this forum before, many times, and sometimes they have been folks that I don't even agree with their views, I could name names right now, but I don't think it's necessary, I admire many people here who do not share my views, I'm sorry that you have never heard me say it before... but now you know, and as far as you and/or Tommy making the little parrot comment, well, I do believe that it's rude too, however, to me, it all comes down to the source... so no worries... and if you were just trying to repeat what TOmmy said and you didn't mean to be rude to me, then no worries either... I appreciate your kindness in advance... but remember that if someone feels that you are reapeting yourself or backing someone's opinion, you may be called a parrot too... Now, I never told YOU that you had to confess because you said church goers, go back and read my post if you wish, I said that there were other nicer words to refer to people who attended church. As far as TOmmy being rude, I believe he is, I didn't call him names, and I don't think anybody did either, however, in my opinion, he is rude often and I don't think that is an insult, and I'm pretty sure it's not just my opinion, if you go back on time, other people have expressed the same feelings about him before, I believe that there is nothing wrong with stating one's opinion, but I assure you that my style is not to call anybody names, of course we all get very passionate about some topics and sometimes it gets a little out of control for mostly everybody, I understand that.... by the way, I never called the pro-choice people rude and nasty, I may have said that some people are indeed rude and/or nasty, because of their behavior, but definitely not because they are pro-choice.

Good for you!!!!!!!!! I LOVED what you did! and it paid of! no more talking in class!!!!!!! I also don't believe in giving my kids "privacy" by letting them have their bedroom door closed all the time, unless they are changing or getting dressed, the door must remain opened at all times, even when they are on the phone, I want to hear what they are talking and who they are talking to... no privacy for them and I've told them that too! I'm involved in every single move they make, even the smallest.... I can't believe when I see parents knocking on their kid's bedroom doors and asking for permission to come in and kids refusing to open because they are "busy" WTH???????? that doesn't fly with me.... I have girls, maybe it would have to be different with boys, not sure.... but those are my rules...

Oh Laurend, I'm sorry! for your loss and for his family too, it really is so sad, and like you said, it could've been prevented.... that's probably the saddest part...

Then call me over protective too! and I'm proud of it! I agrew with you 100%. I believe that a high percentage of children's bad behavior now a days it's the parents's fault. I ask the same questions that you ask your kids to my teenage kids, actually I ask even more questions. I think that you have to! and I find extremely irresponsible parents who don't know what their kids are doing at 3:00am and parents that don't make their kids responsible for their wrong actions, instead they blame others, parents need to be stronger, stricter and be parents before they are their kids's friends, they have plenty of friends out there, they need real parents at home, nothing wrong with getting along with your kids and having fun, but I believe they need to know that we are the parents and they are the kids and that they must respect and obey, maybe I'm old fashion... oh well, I don't care, like you said, at least my kids are not stealing or driving in the middle of the night or hurting anybody... And I'm proud of your boy! he made the right decision! that's what good parenting does!

As I'm reading your post, I'm getting pissed by the second, and I'll say that they are low life people! shame on them and there should be harsher laws for these things..... I'm so sorry about the poor little guy... and you are so great by doing what you did! we need more people like you!

I will pray for you that everything goes ok, for a complication free surgery and quick recovery and please keep us updated. Hugs Elena

Megan, I don't think I can add much more after all the good advises that you have received here, but I do want to tell you that I'm sorry for what you are going through, I also took care of my mother until she passed, actually she lived with me, I was married and still are and hubby was ok with that, I remember telling him back then that I would never abandon my mother under any circumstances and that at the moment, she came first... he said it was ok, I think that he wouldn't have accepted it, I would've decided to keep caring for my mom and let him go, as much as breaking my marriage would've hurt me, I think you are doing the right thing, I admire you for caring for your parents and your children and at the end you will be victorious and you will realize it too, your effort, sacrifice and kindness will pay of and you will feel happy that you made that decision.... hang in there and please come back here for support as much as you can, I wish I could do more... Elena

COmpletely agree!

LOL! too funny.... the problem is that an extended golfing break will inflict pain on any possible golfing buddies or people around..... let's not be selfish and let's all share the pain....... Sorry, I couldn't resist....:cool:

Oh Gadget, I don't think you had to apologize, I really don't, you are only human, but I do understand what you mean and how you feel though, you truly are a good person. Now, I do believe that if you apologize, then others here should apologize too, over, and over, and over....... just my opinoin..:purplebananna:

:cursing::lol: Oh Green, when I read your answer I was laughing out loud! LOL! I LOVE your approach! and you know what, kinder and gentler don't work all the time, actually most of the times.... I can see Laurend going with yours baby!

I'm sorry about your allergies, that sucks! and I hope you get better soon! Your thought are all there, I understand what you mean, I agree that it's definitely a perception and now I can see what you meant about "calling":thumbup:

Laurend, I don't like the whole walking in the ceremony either and I personally would love to avoid it, but we do sometimes all these things to please our families.... it gets old and we get tired of always doing things to please others, and I would tell you to just not walk at all, but if you do, which I can totally understand and I would probably do it myself, you should do it now, going through all the trouble of re-scheduling and everything else is not worth it, like you said, you aren't getting your diploma that same day anyway, so what's the point? just convince your family that it will be just fine doing it now and this way , otherwise there will be no walk at all and then maybe they will settle for that or nothing....:cursing:

I understand your point, interesting point too, but if we are referring to it as a "calling from God", many involved in the pro-life movement do not consider the issue a religious issue, and many also believe that life begins at conception to be a fact and not just an opinion, so a calling from God wouldn't be the main reason to be pro-life all the time, now if we are saying it's a "life calling" I suppose it could apply in some cases, I guess what I'm trying to point out is that many pro-lifers believe that from a scientific point of view a human being is killed during an abortion... ok, I think I'm rambling on now.... sorry about that..:cursing:

Pix, I admire you, you turned your life around! I also respect your debate style and respect your feelings very much, I can feel your gentle spirit and I mean this from my heart. Elena

Gadget, I strongly believe that there is not doubt in anyone's mind here that Tommy O was being rude and insulting, despite of any comments from anyone saying otherwise in an attempt to obtain support for their views, his post was clear in regards to his manners, and anyone that can read english can surely see the personal attack and not a civil discussion/debate from his part, but truly, his posts bring nothing positive or intellectual in my opinion and I believe they are much better ignored, they are not worth it.:smile:

Tommy O, your post comes across rude and insulting to say the least, therefore you are the one showing that you are the narrow minded one..........., besides, why would you even consider posting at all when ultimately you are dealing with people like "us"? even if you are "just clarifying", you are still addressing "us" narrow minded people.... please don't stoop down to our level, you are way above us!!!!!!!!!!!!! laughable but it seems that's how you feel.....:smile: and really, it's kind of funny after all.... you showed your intellect beautifully. LOL!

Hey, if you feel the need to confess, by all means knock yourself out!, even though I doubt that saying "church goers" will be on the top of your list of confessions.... nah! I personally thought the words came across a little bit snippy.... but hey, that's just my perception and reading an online post... so no worries...

Exactly! it's common sense in my opinion, and for those who don't have the common sense, well, that's when the law should come in....

I understand how you feel, my impression is that there are many more abortionists than pro-lifers on this thread, that alone makes it hard, but not only that, you are also so well informed and so knowledgeable that there is not much left to add after reading your posts, I know that it's not fun feeling alone under any circumstances, but in this case, please take it as a compliment, it is true that there are many here that respect and admire your input.