FunnyDuddies

Actually, here a lot of charities have to fight for government assistance, and they must pander to whomever the political person in charge of their sector and industry in order to win the charity. This makes them even more agenda-based, both conservative and liberal. I HATE that. Private charities can spend less on the over head and chiefs, and put more money towards the actual people needing the help. And they can give their money to whomever or whatever they feel necessary without having to follow whatever guidelines the govt has put on them.

Well you are very welcome to just put me on ignore if you do not wish to read what charities i work for or contribute to. I am personally very proud of the strides my groups have made in all of their fields. LOL Saying and opinion I have is wrong is quite laughable though. How's this, you're wrong! hehehe, See it really does nothing. You hate conservatives. I get it. If I say I work for charities, I am evil. If I say I contribute, I don't do it enough. If I say how much I do it, then it is self serving. when there is this much hatred towards a whole group of people, that prejudice taints everything you see from that person. I am not sure what part of my life you see to think I am a money grubbing snob, but I am sorry you developed that view of me. You don't even know me! But I guess you have your reasons.

Absolutely not. If you had given the time to read my posts, only one of the programs that I volunteer at is conservative in politics. The rest of them are actually quite favored by liberals. Beach cleanup and sea turtle rescue and protection. Home building for struggling families who just need a leg up in the world (very similar to habitat for humanity, started by one of the most favored liberal presidents of our generation), drug rehab programs and a clinic for users trying to clean up, the American Cancer Society, the local ronald mcdonald house. Are these all too conservative for you? And NONE of these are charities that our church gives to, and only one of them has another member of our church working with them as well.

I agree that a lot of people do charity for selfish reasons. Better that it be done for a selfish reason, than not done at all. But since i am the only one who posted numbers, and that is what you are refering to, let me explain my motivation behind placing numbers with my posts. Being a conservative, a lot of people (its already been done here) will trivialize the charity and state that it might be a little, or "you just cut a check" without realizing how much we are actually talking. I think it is important to show exactly how much is given to qualify the charity being given, and the level of commitment from the giver. Someone doing something to make themselves feel better will give 2-5%, according to studies. My numbers are a little over 25% of my personal income, not even including my husband's which is almost 35% given. and this is just the financial portion. We donate at least 20 hours a week in physical labor as well, and when the weather is good, even more than that. ( we love working outside ) I hear what you are saying, but just because someone quantifies something does not mean they are doing it for purely selfish reasons. My case is merely using it to qualify, in the eyes of my doubters, that I am very devoted to my charities to a level much further than those who "just do it to feel good".

Carlene I posted earlier about the amount of liberals versus conservatives i see EVERYDAY in the charities and organizations i belong to. I watch who comes in the door, who does the work, who just writes the checks, and who peters out after a few weeks or months. When tragedies happen lots of people volunteer time. when it is a holiday, lots of people volunteer time. And a lot of them are liberals. But if you got to most charities, and seek out those that have been there for years and years, the majority of them are conservative. The liberals come in with the best intentions, but eventually charity work becomes too much of a bother. Plus, like green said, that fabulous government is there doing a lot of the work for them. Why keep getting their hands dirty. I do write checks, a lot of checks. I also do a lot of labor. I help build homes. I pass out food, I counsel, I clean. and not just on a holiday. I do it every week. Not just buying formula, but doing the feeding. Don't say that conservatives are not willing to get their hands dirty. I have been getting my hands dirty since I was 12, and I see more conservatives than liberals.

I disagree BJ. Govt programs and forced charity was flawed from the beginning. you cannot fix something that is fundementally flawed. The best is to do away with it and let people, our american society, become strong on its own and take care of people in their own rite. To continue handing out funds and services to people without making them do anything for themselves is devastating to those people. It forces them to become dependent on people and programs other than themselves. Most can never break away from it, and we as a whole tax paying society end up caring for this person for the rest of their lives. The answer is not to fix the broken system. It is to do away with the system completely. Let people find charity from their neighbors, from their churches, from their youth groups, from their family. And teach them to be more self sufficient. It will develop a strong sense of being, a stronger society, a closer community, and a stronger government.

And i want to point out that I am not an anarchist, or anti-govt in any way. I am anti-big government. I believe that the federal government should focus on the protection of our borders and homelands, and that state governments should focus on roads and upholding laws. This is obviously an extreme example, and there are a few toehr things that i think a government should worry about and be involved in, but for the most part I think that things we are taxed for are totally bogus, and that the government has too many "programs" going on. For instance, I have no desire to pay for the living expenses of someone who paints for a living. If you cannot support yourself with your art, choose a different line of work. As far as the abortion issue goes, because I know that a lot will say "If you believe in smaller government then you believe in fewer laws on our bodies" you are incorrect. This for me is a "murder" issue. A law that must be upheld, or should be upheld, by the government.

I think that we both agree precisely on the way things are split and why. I think that were we disagree fundamentally is which way is correct. Liberals do feel that official governing over the handouts that are given to people, and the overtaxation of the greater population in order to provide for a few. This is a forced charity. Conservatives feel that the giving of charity should be left up to the individual, and that the government should not have ANY say in a societal issue of care and charity. I feel that my tax dollars are being stolen from the groups and charities that I belong to and contribute to. Those are dollars that I would be more than happy to contribute to homeless, to troubled children seeking education, to drug rehab clinics, to post abortion counselling centers, to environmental cleanup. But to force me to pay for things that I do not agree with, charaties that have too heavy in fees and paychecks to the top members, to charities that are so big that small more focused charities fail because they never get anything. That is all wrong for me. Now I know the argument from this will be "If we lower taxes and stop the forced contributing to charity and welfare through the govt then a lot of charities and people on welfare will stop receiving money and fail." yes. they will. But that shows that our american society is WAY too dependant on our govt. We should be taking care of ourselves and each other through community and charity. Not through govt. Let me decide what I want to give my money to. I think I make good choices with it, and I certainly put in the time and energy as well.

I think this is an extreme view, and quite a broad painting of two seperate groups. But that is the way it is portrayed in the media when you do not live in the country. "Right-wingers" are not bent to kill, or generally make life difficult, for everyone out there, and liberals are not bent on making life heaven for everyone. In fact there are HUGE contrasts to both in reality. Seems to me that conservatives are actually the ones who contribute to charity and care orgs a lot more than most liberals. I personally give 25% of the over 200k I make a year. Plus I volunteer a lot of my time to counsel, help build homes, and clean beaches. Most of the people that I talk to and deal with in the many charities that I am involved in are conservative, and no...I did not get into these charities through my church. The only organization that would be concidered "politically right" would be the anti-abortion group. The rest are very environmentally centered and socially centered to provide for people and animals that have otherwise had hard luck. We see a lot of liberal people come in, all gung ho, wanting to help, and they last about 2 or 3 months. Then they complain that their time is worth more to them and drop away. It seems that it is the conservatives that are less self serving and focused on making the greater whole a better place to live in.

Lauren, here is where you stated that if a counselling does not include both options it is unethical. I know when you debate it is hard to keep track of what is said. I hope this helps. I have take responsibility for my actions. I have asked for forgiveness, and yes Alexandra, I have forgiven myself. That is why it is easy for me to now focus on those that need to stop manipulating and scamming, as well as those that need couselling to find the best answer for their situation. Just because I hold more people responsible for this than just myself does not mean that I do not take responsibility for the choice that I made. There only seems to be a few pro-choice people that believe the nurse did nothing wrong. the rest, even tho they are for abortion, feel the nurse was very much in the wrong and that I was wronged. Your stance just makes your side look bad. Compassion helps you win debates....remember that.

You have a lot to say Lauren. I think you need to find a call in center. Maybe you can be of help to women counselling them on the pleasures of having an abortion. The scam was commited. She profited from manipulating the actions of a vulnerable and confused person. That is a scam. I am not sure why it is so hard for you to give up to this. it is not like I am saying you did it. Why protect her? She was wrong in what she did. I have asked forgiveness for my actions. I pray for hers. You said earlier that you felt all counselling was unethical if it did not pose both sides of the argument. Now you are saying you did not. I am confused as to which stance you wish to take on this. Don't get me wrong, but most doctors concern themselves with their patients to make sure they do things the healthiest way possible. its not their duty to give choices, but it is their duty to give BOTH choices and be neutral. My doctor's office was not. i am not sure, again, why you have such a hard time with this. I thought this issue was clear. I think maybe this debate is done for you Lauren. You keep debating the same points, and we just keep going around in circles. No matter what you can not possibly make me say that the nurse was not a part of this and that she did not do something wrong. Come to me with a new point and we can continue this. until then I am done debating the nurses involvement and whether counsellors should give both options. I have given my position on both points and tire of telling it to you over and over again.

Wow, how many times do I need to state that i accept responsibility? LOL I guess its something that has been glossed over a few times. Lets go over a few things so that we can clarify where the two of us stand. Scamming is the act of manipulating or taking advantage of someone's defenseless or weak position. It does not mean flat out "doing something behind someone's back". I take responsibility for what I have done. But I also see the obvious defect in the way the system is set up if we are going to continue to let this act continue. Women and girls can easily be coerced into doing something they plainly would not choose to do with a clear head when faced the shocking news and the possibly terrifying thought of explaining to loved ones and family why she is pregnant. Even thought the options might, as you say, be "freakin obvious" there is a lot more that goes into it. There is a lot of planning, a lot of information to take in, and a lot of counselling that should be given. This will help for a woman to make an informed choice. My personal POV would be for the law to change, and no abortions happen ever, but I know this will be a long time coming. So until then I can only do what I have the ability to do. If you find my work unethical because you want all women to not have adoption as a choice I guess I understand that, coming from the view point that you have, but to anger at the fact that I do everything I can so that no one scams a girl like what happened to me is a bit "silly". Are you doing any counselling for women? You seem to have some VERY powerful feelings on this subject. Have you taken any time to go into an abortion clinic to help offer yourself as a counselor or a shoulder to lean on if they have some remorseful feelings after the deed is done?

I have not pushed responsibility off on this nurse completely. I have said (again and again) that I accept responsibility for what I did. I asked my almighty God for forgiveness, as well as the father of the baby. But I was also a confused teenager, and made the wrong decision to have sex before we were ready to have a child. The nurse, a manipulative woman only set on getting her finders fee, saw how confused i was and took advantage of it. Are you saying that people who fall prey to scam artists are not victims but actually at fault because of them willingly following along with the scam? When in a doctor's office it is the responsibility of the nurse and doctor to provide all of the options to the patient so that petient can make an informed decision. I do not expect a counsellor at an abortion clinic to offer information about adoption. that is a business and a privately run clinic. Just as I do not expect an anti-abortion center to counsel a woman about having an abortion as an option. Its a privately run charity.

The manipulation with me started at my PCP's office. Not at an abortion clinic. And if you want me to say that I was responsible, I have. I have over and over. Playing this card is just beating a dead horse. As to the point on advertising, most of the places I have been involved in advertise as "Abortion Alternative" or "Post Abortion Counselling". Is this clear enough for your POV?

Women who call the lines and groups that I have been apart of KNOW they are calling and visiting an pro-life group. My practices are completely ethical. We do not take advantage of anyone, nor do we manipulate women. In my case, the nurse who manipulated me did so meeting me in a completely nutral setting, and taking advantage of my not knowing anything. there is no comparrison between the two of us. So I guess you must deem me ethical.

Yes, very much so. One of the things that drives me to provide the best care and support possible is knowing that someone might not go that extra mile for someone in desperate need. There are ways to deal with an unexpected pregnancy. Other than resorting to aborting the baby. There are plenty of homes, programs, schooling for those who get kicked out of their school, plus tons of financial support from private charities (not government programs) that will help them pay for any medical care needed. For some reason christians have been painted to be these wild, baby crazed picketing fanatics, when we are for the most part very compassionate forgiving accomodating and respectful individuals.

I don't really think we will ever have a decision from anyone as to what stage a fetus becomes a baby. We will all have different points of view. But the tough part is that its not like debating how long to bake cookies. One side's view, if correct, means that thousands of lives are being taken every day. Its certainly a hot topic, and one that will be debated for a long time to come. For me I can only do my part by counselling girls pre and post abortion, and trying to get the pre abortion girls to see that there are other alternatives. And continue to sponsor women's groups that provide care and support to the women and girls who decide to carry the baby to term. I will also vote for my representatives, and president, as well as vote for any bill I can that helps the causes that I belong to. That is all any of us can do. If you feel a certain way, then do something about it. No matter what you might think abo9ut me, or my views, you must respect the fact that I am doing what I need to to make my voice heard.

I am sure you are right.

ROFL So I am confused...Do you want to debate, or not? I thought your other post stated you were done. I am happy to debate you. If you debate like a gentleman and a scholar. Otherwise you are not worth my time. If your posts towards me continue to point out personal issues and not the points of the debate, there will be no debate with me. I follow the rules of game.

Wow Marjon, I am quite surprised at the hatred you have here. This is quite extreme, bra, and I have been able to discuss this very calmly and professionally with everyone else here. Why so much venom? If you feel it is pointless to dicuss this with me because you cannot understand my point of view, then that is fine. Back out of the debate. There are plenty of others willing to discuss this like adults.

But different people have different lines they draw in the sand. Who's line do we follow? I have no idea what scientific test could be done to prove that the baby is more than just a fetus. If I knew I would have created it and my paper would be in every paper on the planet. But if it comes around, and you are alive, and someone officially tells you "The baby you had and aborted was a baby, not just a fetus" would you have remorse? Or mourn for the loss of life? Would you try to get others to stop from having their abortions?

And rape is unfortunate. I know, I have been raped. It happened when I was 16. And I can say right now that while it was a HORRID thing to have happen to me, but I still believe that the innocent life that results in it should not be punished for the sins of the father. The baby should be born, and put up for adoption. But this argument, while it does happen, happens very very rarely. Thankfully.

I stated this is not looking at it from a religious point of view. I am speaking just of a moral human being living on the earth with everyone else. Will you still believe this should be done if you find out that this is a real life? Or do you believe that no life is impotant and we should all start walking around killing each other when we are inconvinienced? I am unclear as to what belief system you would have that would not give heavy weight the the value of a person's life.

ok i can't edit...let me reword that first sentence. LOL I guess I don't understand, if you feel that it is not life, why it is such a hard decision. You can always get pregnant again, provided the doc doesn't scar your uterus and render you infertile. If you feel it is not a life yet, why is it so hard to just dump this pregnancy and wait for the next?

I guess I don't understand how, if it is that hard a decision, it could be so hard for you? You can always get pregnant again, provided the doc doesn't scar your uterus and render you infertile. If you feel it is not a life yet, why is it so hard to just dump this pregnancy and wait for the next?