FunnyDuddies

ah now i see what you mean. well it is true, the govt has put in special situations for people who are here illegally, and that needs to stop. If they are here legally they should work and pay taxes like normal. the moment their visa runs out, then need to be out of here. We need to no longer put emplyers in a position where they can have an illegal alien working for them by giving these people tax id numbers. We need to take away tax id numbers from the people who are here illegally, and we need to kick them all out. we need to shut down our borders and start really cracking down on the laws we have in place. this issue needs to stop. No other country is as relaxed about their borders as we are. And look at how many terrorists have studied us from within our country.

I am not sure how this is a response to my comment. It is against the law to hire an illegal alien. If you hire one then you can be fined, or worse, go to jail.

Why do we need to clean up the mess that their govt has created? I feel bad for them, yes, but they lose all sympathy from me the moment they break the law to come here. there are so many ways for them to come here legally. Why start off your new life here in america by breaking the law? If you do it legally things are so much easier. No ducking out or hiding from the law, you can get a job anywhere, health care, education, etc. its actually a more difficult life if you start out illegally.

I know how all of that works. I do it on a lot of the other sites I run. I was speaking as a response to those who were stating that the rants and raves section is more of what this board is about, not the lap band, but debates and hot topic issues. I was stating that if this were the case, then the advertisements that Alex should be running should have more to do with the threads in rnr rather than weight loss and the lapband. and that if that started happening he would lose a lot of members.

I also agree completely. Every time someone breaks a law, no matter how small it seems to them, it makes it easier for them to break another law in the future. Illegal aliens have no respect for our law the moment they step onto this soil without going through the proper channels.

its not the act of them paying taxes, it is the act of that person being here illegally. that is what is against the law, and needs to be called on. And there are laws against employers hiring illegals. it is just not enforced. We do not need more laws or more rules. We need to enforce the ones we have.

actually there have been many doctors who have come out stating that they are very willing to do a tubal ligation for women. it has also become very popular for young men to get fixed. there is no longer a huge taboo against it. So I recommend you actually talk to your ob gyn. Your chances are much better with a young female ob gyn.

No clue as to what part you want me to elaborate on. Let me know, and I will be happy to do so.

An illegal alien that has a tx id number and all of that? If you are positive, 100% positive, it is your duty to turn that person in. That is against the law, hurts us all, and needs to be stopped.

I think it is completely within your right to have a tubal. Where were you living at the time? Was this outside of the United states. you talk about france, were you just visiting? I understand your anger about it, but cannot really comment on the laws outside of my country, as I have not studied them fully. I really do not like debating something that I do not have a good amount of knowledge on. But as for the personal issue, I agree that you should have been given the option to have a tubal any time you wanted it. Birthcontrol is an important thing to women like you who really do not want to ever be pregnant.

So you are more hung up on the issue of rape? Or abortion in general?

No, I am stating that if he advertises based on what is in the rants and raves section he will lose members. You know...abortion clinics and porn sites. We were speaking of how much relevance the rants and raves section had, and that to some it is more important than the site. Anyway, none of this is relevant any longer. Alex has made his change, which didn't really address the initial issue, but people seem happy with it.

I am pretty sure someone will disagree with us, they just haven;t found the thread yet.

I am proud to say that I hold the human life higher than the inconvinience of keeping a child you are in the process of giving birth to. To me, the advancement that you speak of is truly a reversal towards animalistic behavior and tendancies. Plus, having faced this, I know where my responsibility truly lies. If I get pregnant again I will cherish every moment of it, if I lose it, I will mourn the loss of a human life, and if I give birth to a deformed or malformed child, I will love it and care for it every moment I get to spend with it. No child will ever be an inconvinience for me ever again. Because they are what we are handing this world over to in the future, and I think they deserve all the respect, adoration, and chance that we can give them.

I do understand the issue, I choose to look at in a different light than you do. No reason to get angry about it. You gotta understand, this is a debate on a board. A lapband board. We are not changing laws here. We are simply discussing. To get this riled up about some people being happy about a decision the courts have made is a bit extremist. We do not wish for you to join in our celebration. But that does not mean we cannot celebrate. And when you choose to step into our celebration and tell us we are bad for our stances on certain issues, you should expect us to stand up for ourselves and what we believe. Just as we expect you to stand up and believe what you want to believe. As Mark and I have both said quite often in this thread, we are mearly agreeing to disagree, with a few other words added in for good measure. But we will make no changes sitting here just talking. People need to realize that whatever side you come down on, if you only make your voice heard here on a lapband board you are not doing your cause any justice. And you are very very wrong when you say that I want the medical rights of women taken away across the board. The only thing I am debating here is abortion in its many stages. This has nothing to do with other medical practices of any kind, on men or women. So yeah, there are exceptions. lol I understand that this topic makes me people angry. Its very emotional on both sides. But we cannot have a healthy debate if we do not keep a level head about it and try to debate the points intelligently.

Its simple for me. If someone tries to kill someone else, the only one needing protection is the one being attacked. I am focusing on the needs of the innocent child. Not on the inconvinience of the mother. If the mother is in mortal danger, then I have compassion, but when the baby can be born without distress to the mother, the mother no longer fits into the equation. At that point, if the baby can be born, and is being born when the action of the abortion will occur, then the focus is on that child. Not the family unit as a whole. Whether my views are hard for you to understand or not makes not relevance to this discussion either, but I hope that I have made it clear why i feel this way so that you can better understand my point of view. Yes, in this scenario I am focusing on the child, because in the case of partial birth abortion there is no reason for the mother to need to kill her baby while it is hanging half way out of her. its barbaric and should never happen for any reason. And for a mother to have the selfish need to kill her offspring puts us back on the same level with the animals.

Actually, what happens is your nurse calls someone from child services, they come down and speakwith you for about 5 minutes. you sign a paper, you go home, and then you go to court on your date stating that you have given all right to your child up. in most cases you never even have to go to court. it is that easy. you never even have to see your baby.

inline: I get that we all have differences in opinion over whether a baby, while still in the womb, is important or not based on whether it is wanted. If we applied this to other sections in our lives people would be all up in arms. But because we put so little stock in life in today's society it will be a long time until the laws change. Talk amongst each other is good, but it is in the govt offices that we need to make our voices heard.

They may not have "drop off points" but every woman in every state in this country can give their child up.

Once that baby is born, if the mother did not want it and planned to kill it, at that point the woman's emotional stature does not play into this. My father made me emotional and crazy and was awful to be around. Doesn't mean I have the right to kill him. And this boils down to just that. Death. No one's inconvinience can trump another's life. Yes, our laws are the way they are right now and so it is legal, but it should not be. Of course the bigger nightmare is for the baby that will be killed. How can you, as a human who lives and breathes and walks among other humans, have so little stock in human life? i think it speaks volumes to what our culture and our society has become. And it is sickening. If the law can state that one person cannot kill another person, then the law should state that unborn and partially born babies be included in that "thou shall not kill" category. Inconvinience and stess are not reasons to punish an innocent life. No matter how much you think the mother would be stressedor inconvinience. And it is my choice to make. As a voter I have every right to band together with those that feel the same way I do and try to prevent further deaths of innocent children. With the ban on partial birth abortions being upheld it seems the govt is starting to come around and see it our way. Alexandra, Preventing unwanted pregnancies would happen more often if people would start taking responsibility for their actions. The reason they do not is because our society has made them out to be victims. Which is a bunch of hogwash. If people had to face their responsibilities then they would choose their actions more appropriately. Taking away a cop-out such as abortion would make more and more people look twice at having unprotected sex with someone they are not ready to raise a family with.

Marjon, I am not sure if you are aware of it or not, but within the first week of a baby being born, no matter what the issue might be, the mother can "just drop it off like drycleaning" and not have to deal with it any longer. If a baby is gravely abnormal, then its chances of living are almost nil to begin with. why is it we have all decided it was ok to just not give that child a chance to live? Why take that chance away? I know....its so mentally hard on a woman who has given birth and doesn't want to spend the time to pull for her little kid to try and make it to the stable stage. its such a time waster. that is what it really comes down to here. If the baby is being born, and the mother is not in any danger (which it never is at this point) then let the kid be born. Give it a freaking chance!

Marjon, I have posed many questions to you, and you still have yet to answer them. You just go on about how I am changing the subject, which I am not. Lets stick with the rules of debate shall we? Now that Alexandra has answered one of my questions, I shall continue. The creator of the procedure that we are all talking about has come forth and stated that of all the partial birth abortions he has completed, 80% of them were not medically necessary for either the mother or the child. The other 20% were medically necessary, based on his interpretation. To which he added that none of these were life threatening. they included mental stress, the mother having bouts of vomiting, the child having a cleft lip or palatte. I understand that the law allows this, but how is this right?? You say "But if you were absolutely determined to end such a baby's life, and you had a "doctor" to help you do it, no law would stop you." Does that make it right? and if it is not right, shouldn't we change the law??

That was in response to BJ and he post stating that abortion was a better alternative. so here is a hypothetical, to go along with your stance. My daughter is being born, and her arm is paralyzed. While half of her body is still inside of me I make the decision that her paralysis is too much for me to bear with mentally, and i ask the doctor to kill her before she is fully born. should that be legal?

One thing that surprises me is that the same group of people who would fight to the death for one person who has differences, be it mental or physical, to have every option available to them once born and living amongst our society....yet these same people are so quick to kill it off if it is still within the womb. The majority of abortions, either early or late term, are a result of inconvinience to the mother. Not a problem with the child. The percentage of abortions that happen due to malformation of the baby is very small. Studies have been done all over this country. Did you know that the number of abortions that happen because of the genetic predisposition to obesity is far greater than the abortions that happen because of Down Syndrome? A mental affliction that does not shut down a person. Yet more people would rather kill off the fat kid than kill off the retarted kid? Give me a break. The example that is used so widely (rape and malformation) happen on such a small scale, and it allows others to abort an unfashionable baby, which is criminal. Are you all aware that there are a lot of groups that adopt mentally and physically retarded children to give them the best lives possible? And again....who decides if the affliction is bad enough to warrant death?

If a woman is pregnant, and is at the 9th month, and does not want the baby...you are saying it is better to kill it as it is being born rather than put it up for adoption? How about this....they don't really kill the baby, but they tell her they did. then they take the baby and put it up for adoption. What harm is there in that? the baby lives and grows up happy and healthy. and the woman doesn't need to deal with the baby she didn't want. Does that work as an alternative for you?