gadgetlady

Why does the scientific community need to accept it "more" if it's closer to a law than a theory? Personally, from what I see of scientists, even evolutionary scientists, beginning to doubt the theory, it's peaked and is now decreasing. That's not to say scientists are turning around and embracing Creation Science or Intelligent Design, but a lot of them are saying there are deep, significant problems with evolution.

No, I'm making a value statement about the mother. I feel for her and for the situation she is in. I am very empathetic about the whole thing, despite the brush others have portrayed me with. In fact, I don't know that I could say I "abhor" anyone in this world. While the act is abhorrent and absolutely 100% wrong, that doesn't mean the person committing the act should be hated.

Quote: Originally Posted by Serena Abortion is repugnant. Abortion is a horror. Abortion is a necessity and I have marched many times to keep it legal. I abhor women who have multiple abortions as a form of pregnancy prevention but they should have the legal right to do so. Wow. Those are strong words. You "abhor" women who have done this? I'm not sure I understand why. I'm pro-life and I would never, ever "abhor" a woman because she chose to abort. BTW, abortion is not a form of pregnancy prevention. Women who have abortions are already pregnant. It is a form of live-birth prevention.

I hadn't been following this since her release; I assumed after that all the news stories were just focusing over and over on that. I'm glad to hear she may be going back.

I dunno, Carlene. Depends on what you did the night before :biggrin1:

Daffodil is an adult and she can speak for herself. She doesn't need my approval or disapproval. I think her posts were very strong and while I do not disagree with what she said from a factual standpoint, I wouldn't necessarily have worded some things the way she did. Do I agree that abortion is the deliberate killing of a baby? Of course I do -- you know that. Do I believe she has the right to be as vocal and graphic as she wants to be about the issue? Of course I do. Do I think it's effective with THIS particular group of people? No, not really -- but she still has a right to say it and it's her decision, not mine. If I had been standing on a sidewalk with her talking to someone about to go into an abortion clinic, I would definitely have taken her aside and told her that it was not a good approach in that circumstance. But in a debate forum, she has the right to say whatever she wants. And unless she's being factually inaccurate, as far as I'm concerned she can say what she wants. I once debated a California assemblywoman on the issue of abortion. She spoke first, and talked about women's rights, etc. I spoke second and described the abortion procedure and talked about the development of the unborn baby. Not only did I win the debate, but many of the attendees came up to me afterwards and told me they had never known what really happened in an abortion, they had been on the fence about the issue, but now they had jumped squarely off the fence and wanted to volunteer with the Right to Life League. Sometimes telling the truth works.

First of all, if you are referring to Jesus as "He" (with a capital "H") then I assume you consider Him to be God. If He is God, He doesn't just BELIEVE something is wrong. If He is God, if something is wrong to Him, it is wrong period. For those of you who are not Christians, I realize you will completely disagree with this opinion, but that's fine. I'm talking now as a Christian to a Christian. Second of all, this brings us right back to the "go now and sin no more" thing I was talking about earlier. Remember what Jesus said to Peter in Matthew 16:23? "Get behind me, Satan?" That's not very touchy-feely now, is it? Yes, Jesus forgives. Yes, He understands. Yes, He loves and accepts. But remember, repentance is a key factor here. Jesus loved the sinner, but He hated the sin. There is no question about that. Jesus expected and expects repentance, acknowledging and turning away from the sin.

I wasn't asking. It was a joke. Did you see the smiley-guy pounding on the ground? I agree with you -- and I respect your opinion about it! Unfortunately, abortion is an incredibly graphic thing. However, I must say that for my part, I did not begin the escalation of verbiage. I never said blood-soaked baby killers, or whatever it was. That was not me. That was Mark, trying to characterize what I said. And, in doing so, I think it left a vivid picture in peoples' minds that they associated with me. Insulting and laying guilt is not my goal; education is. That's why I post about the development of the baby in the womb, etc. If I wanted to insult and lay guilt, I would have done so to the women on this board who have freely admitted that they've had abortions. And I don't think I've done that.

OK, good. Now that we're done with the psycho-babble portion of the debate, I'd like to respond to the issue of polling that someone posted earlier. I just read this in an article I received online: In August of 2004, in a survey sponsored by Pace University and Rock the Vote, 54% of all Americans declared themselves pro-life while just 44% said they supported legal abortion. African-American voters took a pro-life position by a larger 59% to 42% margin. This quote comes from an article at Martin Luther King, Jr. Niece Says Abortion is Real Black "Quiet Riot" talking about Martin Luther King Jr.'s niece, Dr. Alveda King, and her pro-life work (as an aside, her website is Alveda King - Home). So despite what 396's poll says here, one must understand that self-selected polls are rarely representative or accurate. They are only representative of one group of people within a specific community that also choose to participate in the poll.

Hmmm. Crickets. Wonder what that means? Wonder if it means that people here HAVE A LIFE??????? Oh, no. Must mean that they're vindictive, hateful, presumptuous, and condescending.

Hey, since what we're debating here has come down to feelings and semantics, is anyone willing to say they respect my opinion that I don't respect the pro-abortion opinion? :pound:

You guys are rich. Attack away. It must mean you're right about abortion. After all, if I lie and say I respect your opinions on this matter, then I'm worthy of discussing it. If I tell the truth, that I don't respect the opinion that it's acceptable to deliberately kill an innocent human being, I'm only worthy of ridicule.

Well, then, weren't you being presumptuous about my lack of instant response? The reason I didn't answer more promptly was not because I was being disrespectful, because I didn't want to answer the question, or because I was unwilling to reiterate what I've already said more than once. The reason was because I had stepped away from my computer to tend to my children. The ones that were my children even when they were in my womb.

I don't run around telling people I don't respect their opinion on this matter. You asked the question -- over and over and over again. Would you prefer that I lie to you? And you really, really care here that I win this argument. Right. All you wanted to do by asking the question was to give yourself the ability to point a finger at me and say, "See!!! See!!!! There!!! She's disprespectful!!!" Which, by the way, is not the case. I have not been disrespectful to anyone that I'm aware of. And if I have, my apologies. You got your wish. I won't lie to you. At least now you can't say, "See!!!! See!!!! She's a liar!!!" BTW, it's not a question that commonly comes up when debating someone: "Do you respect me?" LOL! Ever heard THAT in a Presidential debate? NOW can we get back to the real issue?

Why is it a waste of time to debate with someone who doesn't respect one particular position? Are my questions less valid, my arguments less legitimate? Why does how I feel about your position mean I don't have something worthy to say? And just because I don't respect this particular position, does that mean I don't treat the people who hold it with respect? Can you show me where I haven't? If someone says they don't respect my position, frankly I could care less. That's about them, not about me. It doesn't mean I won't try to defend my position and it doesn't mean I'll stop talking to them about it if they want to discuss the matter. Perhaps I might even bring them to a place where they respect my opinion.

I've already answered you and you know it. The answer is no. I do not respect your position on this matter. I've explained why I don't. It doesn't mean I don't think you're reasonable, thoughtful, or compassionate, or that I don't respect your opinions on other matters. It doesn't mean I don't respect YOU. It doesn't mean I don't respect your right to have an opinion. It means I don't respect the opinion itself. But let me ask you a question? Why do you care? What would it matter if I said yes? Yes or no, we still disagree. Why does the fact that I don't respect an opinion that I consider to be sanctioning the taking of a human life matter one way or another? And as to your crickets, BJean, I do have a life and other things to do. I'm sorry I can't always respond at the snap of a fingers like you'd like me to.

What the heck have I refused to answer? All I've said is I'm not going to debate the selection of words anymore, and I'm not going to respond when someone is hostile or calls me hostile.

Sorry. Not going to debate about words used anymore. Happy to discuss the REAL issue at hand, that of whether it should be acceptable to stop a beating heart or not.

Fine. I'll stop defending myself now. But that does NOT mean I'll stop defending the babies. If you don't like it you don't have to read it.

Yeah, like that. And I think there was something in there about Satan, too. None of which I ever said. I have never, ever called someone an "evil, blood-soaked baby killer." It isn't me who's ramping up the rhetoric.

I'm not going to go back through all of the posts, but it wouldn't take too long to find them. I wasn't directly "called names", but I was accused of wanting women to die from illegal abortions, of spreading disinformation and tripe, etc. I would be surprised if you wouldn't categorize some of those posts and others as hostile.

I'm sorry, but I disagree. Pointing out the humanity of the unborn child doesn't drive mothers helter-skelter to abortion clinics. Sometimes, just showing a mother that her unborn baby has a beating heart, etc. makes the difference. I was asked a direct question: why can't you respect the pro-abortion position? I answered truthfully. I won't lie to be nice, especially when people are calling me all sorts of names. It's just not who I am.

The reason I talk about Nazis and slave-owners is not for the point of comparison, but to get people to THINK about how we define human life. It's to help people understand that the position of "choice" when it comes to the denial of the basic human right to life isn't an acceptable "choice". I don't run around calling the opposition slave-owners or Nazis. I ask the questions -- "WHY is what Hitler did wrong if he believed the Jews were less than human?" "WHY is owning a slave wrong if a slave is defined to be 3/5 of a person?" The obvious answer is that the belief that Jews are less than human and blacks are only 3/5 of a person is an incorrect and indefensible premise to derive policy from. Again - do I talk about these matters when counseling a scared, pregnant mother? OF COURSE NOT! Do I run around telling mothers who have had abortions that they're murderers? OF COURSE NOT! niecyrenee works in a pregnancy counseling center; I wouldn't expect her FOR A MINUTE to use any of the arguments I've used when talking to an abortion-minded woman, just as I never have. But that is not what we're doing here. We are discussing issues and attempting to logically demonstrate our position. To do that, sometimes we use comparisons and probing questions. And I can tell you that I (and others) have changed peoples' minds using these arguments.

Respect is an interesting thing. If someone asked you if you respect neo-Nazi's, would you say yes or no? What about pimps, or people who bring children into the sex-slave trade? At some point, when the position the opposition is taking is so brutal and espouses something as horrific as the killing of another human being, you get to the place where you can't respect it. Do I respect your position on evolution, laurend? Yes, I do. I disagree, but I do respect it. Do I respect the positions of various people on health care, taxes, etc.? Yes, I do. I disagree, but I do respect them. Do I respect the positions of the men who flew the airplanes into the World Trade Center? No. Because their positions killed people. It is the same with this issue. Now, do I go around screaming at mothers carrying unborn children that if they abort they're murderers? Of course not. Do I tell mothers who have had abortions that they're murderers? Of course not. But if someone asks me what I think, most especially in a debate forum, I will tell them precisely what I think. You must also remember all of this "harsh language" comes at the end of a challenge from the other side -- and, the "harsh language" has not been limited to the pro-life side. I won't go back and dredge it all up, but you can go back and read it if you want to. I suspect, if it were a position you felt equally strong about, AND a position that advocated the killing of innocent people, you wouldn't mince words, either.

I said this before but I think it bears saying again: And there's a difference between having a debate with someone about the legal, moral, philosophical, scientific, and political issues involved and ministering to a scared, pregnant mother. Believe me, when I'm counseling someone who's considering abortion, I don't talk about slave ownership or infanticide. But it's perfectly acceptable in a forum such as this.