gadgetlady

I don't know if you're fooling yourself or just trying to fool everyone else. So all those words you used above were a civil discussion, rhetoric-free, and not calling someone out in a personal way? Can you show me where I've called someone out in a personal way without provocation (in other words, not in response to being called a frothing-at-the-mouth bigot who wants to control women)? You did doubt it, or at least you implied earlier that you did. And yes, something can be all of those things at the same time, but all of those things are different things. There's a big difference between wrong and sad. I'd like to know why you think the situation was tragic and why it was wrong (the words you used the first time around). Not really. The reason I brought it up was because it demonstrates the duality of the belief system that it's acceptable to kill a child in utero but not acceptable to kill that exact same child ex-utero, even though it's the exact same child at the exact same developmental age. I really want to hear your or anyone else's explanation as to why this situation is different from any other late-term abortion that happens every day in this country. Why you think it's tragic, wrong, criminal, and all of the other words that have been used. And yet, thus far, no one will answer me. I believe I know why (I could be wrong and am happy to be proved wrong). I believe the reason is you (and by saying "you" here I mean the generic you -- those who support abortion and simultaneously decry this situation) can't put into words what the ethical and moral difference is between what happened and what "should" have happened had the abortion gone "right" or "as planned". I believe that you (generic) believe that if you (generic) attempt to put that into words, you (generic) will not do a very good job (or perhaps the reason you [generic] won't put it into words is because you [generic] can't come up with the words). I believe that you (generic) fear that I will have a compelling opposite point of view and you (generic) won't be able to defend your (generic) position. So you (generic) tell me you (generic) won't answer because you (generic) know I'll disagree with you (generic). Or you (generic) just choose not to answer. Interesting. Isn't that what this entire thread has been about? If you (generic) don't want to have a disagreement about abortion, I would suggest that you (generic) stop posting on this board (unless you [generic] only post when you [generic] believe you [generic] have the upper hand and are on the attack -- like when everyone here attacks pattygreen). The lack of response tells me you're actually afraid of the answer. I'd love someone to prove me wrong. I am not and have never been afraid of answering questions and presenting my opinion on this subject -- even when I get attacked.

Oh - here's more! "Foaming at the mouth". "Extremists". "Radical". "Sarcastic". "Diatribe". "Grisly photos". "Right wing rhetoric". Oh -- and lest we leave out -- "maggot". Do you really think what you post isn't abortion rhetoric with a good dose of hate-speak thrown in?

There's that hate and venom again. "Anti-choice". "Bigoted". "Manipulated". "Skewed." "Hate." "Fear". "Accusations". "Shame". "Ugly". Yup, everything you say is full of love.

Well, you can't really know that until you explain your reasoning, can you? I truly, truly don't understand the reasoning. The result of the abortion procedure, even though it was botched, was the same. So what's the problem?

Right back atcha. I've seen an incredible amount of rage and venom coming from you. Then why do you think it's not OK for a mother to have a late-term abortion just because she doesn't want to be pregnant anymore (barring a medical reason)? I REALLY am surprised that you cited it to be tragic and wrong (not sad and unfortunate -- that's a different description entirely). I truly would like to hear your reasoning because I don't get it.

It's a heartwarming thing, isn't it? I just discovered the the birth mom still has photos and info up on her myspace page: MySpace.com - aimee - 29 - Female - OJAI, California - www.myspace.com/sobergirl29. It is so refreshing to see a situation where everything works for everyone and life is honored.

I have an awesome story to share that has an LBT connection. As many of you know, I have been very vocal on the abortion thread. Back in March of this year we were debating about whether women understand fetal development and whether ultrasounds change mothers’ minds about abortion. One of the LBTers began PM'ing me about the issue and we developed a friendship off-LBT. Fast forward a few months, and I received an email from her indicating that fetal facts and ultrasounds do indeed change minds. It turns out the daughter of a co-worker of hers was faced with an unplanned pregnancy (her second; the first one was aborted). She went in for a pregnancy test and the nurse, mistaking her arrival with her boyfriend for a desire to be pregnant, gave her fetal information (what stage the baby was in, the beating heart, the development process, etc.) and showed her the ultrasound. She immediately realized what she was carrying and decided not to abort (and, sadly, regretted her first abortion). However, she didn’t want to keep the baby. So my LBT friend connected her with a couple who was looking to adopt. When she emailed me to tell me the story, I responded and told her that if anything like that ever happens again (not that it’s common, but it could happen), I have a dear friend who has been trying, unsuccessfully, to get pregnant for years (including failed IVF, a miscarriage, and currently a foray into the foster care system, which takes about 2 years); she’s turning 40 in November and has been very discouraged about ever being able to have a baby. Last week, my LBT friend emailed me that the adoptive parents had dropped out and they were looking for new adoptive parents, and was my friend still interested? Literally by the end of the day, my friend and the biological mother had connected (verbally and emotionally) and my friend is adopting the baby! Jack is due December 31st. So I wanted to share – out of a controversial thread with many differing opinions came a connection that allowed a baby to be placed for adoption with a loving and deserving couple – lives and families changed that would otherwise never have met had it not been for LBT. We never know how the connections we make will affect our futures and the futures of others! :grouphug:

I am very interested to hear from any of you who supports abortion but thinks what happened in this situation is tragic, wrong, or (insert your favorite word for "bad" here), why you think so.

I just wanted to give everyone an update on this story. Jack was born just before Christmas, 2008. He had a few minor breathing complications (from aspirated meconium) and was in the hospital for about 10 days before he was released to Tiffany and Chris' loving arms. They have had him home now for almost 2 months and he is a growing, thriving little boy, just a bundle of joy. We're having a shower for them at the end of the month (they wanted to wait until they were sure they were going to take him home before planning a shower). Jack's birth mom, dad, and grandparents on both sides are extremely happy with how things turned out, even though there had been various desires (and pressuring) for abortion, keeping the baby, getting married, etc. on all sides. All family members have expressed that things couldn't have turned out better for everyone involved, especially Jack. Thank you to all of you who prayed. This has been life-changing for so many people. I hope this picture posts right!

Unfortunately, they will be fought tooth and nail by the abortion industry, which desperately wants to hide the truth about what's going on in the womb. And if FOCA passes, it will all be for naught, as 100% of any pro-life legislation will be overturned in one fell swoop. It will guarantee abortion-on-demand through all 9 months of pregnancy for any reason whatsoever (even the late-term abortions "on a whim" that BJean thinks shouldn't be allowed to abort will be allowed), it will require religious hospitals to do abortions (probably causing many of them to close), it will strike down any laws requiring parental notification, and it will basically nullify any state laws that attempt to reduce abortion.

Why is it tragic and why is it wrong? Wait a minute. You've always said abortion should be legal and it's nobody's business why a mother chooses to abort. Now you want to put limitations on it? You've also always said that mothers don't get late-term abortions for any reason other than medical reasons. This case disproves that stance. She just plain didn't want to be pregnant at 23 weeks. Happens all the time, much as the abortion movement would like to hide it. According to what? According to his voting record, what you've said above is 100% false. In fact, he even came up with a new term for a baby that survives an abortion (just so he wouldn't have to use the term baby): it was something along the lines of "post-born fetus". Bulls***. If he were absolutely for saving a "live" baby, he would support some protection for them. Nobody's skewing the truth. The article I posted is MSM. Obama's votes are a matter of record. And pro-lifers certainly haven't sensationalized what happened in Florida -- even the local NOW lady has weighed in on it.

Not really. The woman came in to have her baby's life terminated. The clinic successfully accomplished their (and her) goal. Whether they did it by dismemberment or by suffocation or by letting the baby bleed out after being accidentally born alive is really inconsequential. The results are exactly the same. After all, Obama believes very strongly that clinics and hospitals shouldn't be required to give medical attention to babies born alive accidentally after abortions. Which is precisely what happened in this case. If that baby had survived beyond her birth, likely the mother would have had a malpractice suit available to her because they didn't succeed at killing the baby. So it's really just unfortunate for all parties that this mother had the audacity to have contractions. Had she just waited around a little longer for the "doctor" to arrive, this would be a non-issue. Or had the baby been born in precisely the same way but not attempted to take a breath, this would also be a non-issue. Is everyone upset simply because the baby's lungs were filled with air?

Why are they charging any of them? The baby's dead; that was the goal.

And here are my comments about it; when I read the story, I was so incensed I had to get it out on paper: A pregnant mother went into an abortion clinic to abort her baby; she left alive and the baby left dead. What’s everyone so riled up about? And yet, they are. You see, this particular 23-week old “fetus” had the audacity to breathe (and, most likely, cry). And the clinic worker had the audacity to put her in a plastic bag and throw her away. But wait: isn’t that what they always do? MSBNC claims that “The case has riled the anti-abortion community, which contends the clinic's actions constitute murder.” Newsflash: as a long-time member of the “anti-abortion community”, this doesn’t “rile” me any more than had the baby been successfully aborted without all the drama. The result is 100%, nay 150%, the same. The fact that someone had to stare a live baby in the eye and shove her into a biohazard bag only serves to shed light on what is normally done in the secret, broad-daylight, well-advertised, well-funded, industry that likes to use such euphemisms as “choice” for their brutal attacks on helpless human beings – and “courageous” for the killers they employ. Now that’s real audacity. "It really disturbed me," said Joanne Sterner, president of the Broward County chapter of the National Organization for Women, after reviewing the administrative complaint against Renelique. "I know that there are clinics out there like this. And I hope that we can keep (women) from going to these types of clinics." I’ve got news for you, Joanne. “These types of clinics” are simply the regular old, plain old, strip-mall and freestanding abort-o-rama clinics that are seen nationwide. It’s a death business, so we shouldn’t be surprised when death is the result. I wonder, quite often actually, about the minds of the pro-aborts. Here’s a baby who was slated for death and received it. I don’t understand the problem. Why is it OK to use any number of killing methods so long as the baby is still wholly or partially a resident of the womb, but as soon as the baby passes through the magical vaginal canal, she is suddenly entitled the protective rights shared by the rest of us post-born human beings. Why the hell does the president of the Broward County chapter of the National Organization for SOME Women give a flying leap? Oh, oh, I know! Because it makes the news when someone does something like this. That “something like this”, of course, being the same “something” they do every day in that clinic and abortion clinics around the nation and the world, but of course without the “staring in the [live] face” part. And to all of those who claim abortions are rarely done on viable babies, maybe this story will help you to understand that it isn’t all happy-faced, clean, clinical work – just because it doesn’t make the news daily doesn’t mean it doesn’t happen daily.

Here's a link for you: Doctor investigated in botched abortion - Crime & courts- msnbc.com Doctor investigated in badly botched abortion Woman waiting for procedure gives birth; baby placed in bag, thrown out TAMPA, Fla. - Eighteen and pregnant, Sycloria Williams went to an abortion clinic outside Miami and paid $1,200 for Dr. Pierre Jean-Jacque Renelique to terminate her 23-week pregnancy. Three days later, she sat in a reclining chair, medicated to dilate her cervix and otherwise readied for the procedure. Only Renelique didn't arrive in time. According to Williams and the Florida Department of Health, she went into labor and delivered a live baby girl. What Williams and the Health Department say happened next has shocked people on both sides of the abortion debate: One of the clinic's owners, who has no medical license, cut the infant's umbilical cord. Williams says the woman placed the baby in a plastic biohazard bag and threw it out. Police recovered the decomposing remains in a cardboard box a week later after getting anonymous tips. "I don't care what your politics are, what your morals are, this should not be happening in our community," said Tom Pennekamp, a Miami attorney representing Williams in her lawsuit against Renelique and the clinic owners. Hearings and allegations The state Board of Medicine is to hear Renelique's case in Tampa on Friday and determine whether to strip his license. The state attorney's homicide division is investigating, though no charges have been filed. Terry Chavez, a spokeswoman with the Miami-Dade County State Attorney's Office, said this week that prosecutors were nearing a decision. Renelique's attorney, Joseph Harrison, called the allegations at best "misguided and incomplete" in an e-mail to The Associated Press. He didn't provide details. The case has riled the anti-abortion community, which contends the clinic's actions constitute murder. "The baby was just treated as a piece of garbage," said Tom Brejcha, president of The Thomas More Society, a law firm that is also representing Williams. "People all over the country are just aghast." Those who support abortion rights are concerned about the allegations. "It really disturbed me," said Joanne Sterner, president of the Broward County chapter of the National Organization for Women, after reviewing the administrative complaint against Renelique. "I know that there are clinics out there like this. And I hope that we can keep (women) from going to these types of clinics." Malpractice payments According to state records, Renelique received his medical training at the State University of Haiti. In 1991, he completed a four-year residency in obstetrics and gynecology at Interfaith Medical Center in New York. New York records show that Renelique has made at least five medical malpractice payments in the past decade, the circumstances of which were not detailed in the filings. Several attempts to reach Renelique were unsuccessful. Some of his office numbers were disconnected, no home number could be found and he did not return messages left with his attorney. Williams struggled with the decision to have an abortion, Pennekamp said. She declined an interview request made through him. She concluded she didn't have the resources or maturity to raise a child, he said, and went to the Miramar Women's Center on July 17, 2006. Sonograms indicated she was 23 weeks pregnant, according to the Department of Health. She met Renelique at a second clinic two days later. Renelique gave Williams laminaria, a drug that dilates the cervix, and prescribed three other medications, according to the administrative complaint filed by the Health Department. She was told to go to yet another clinic, A Gyn Diagnostic Center in Hialeah, where the procedure would be performed the next day, on July 20, 2006. Williams arrived in the morning and was given more medication. The Department of Health account continues as follows: Just before noon she began to feel ill. The clinic contacted Renelique. Two hours later, he still hadn't shown up. Williams went into labor and delivered the baby. "She came face to face with a human being," Pennekamp said. "And that changed everything." Investigation under way The complaint says one of the clinic owners, Belkis Gonzalez came in and cut the umbilical cord with scissors, then placed the baby in a plastic bag, and the bag in a trash can. Williams' lawsuit offers a cruder account: She says Gonzalez knocked the baby off the recliner chair where she had given birth, onto the floor. The baby's umbilical cord was not clamped, allowing her to bleed out. Gonzalez scooped the baby, placenta and afterbirth into a red plastic biohazard bag and threw it out. No working telephone number could be found for Gonzalez, and an attorney who has represented the clinic in the past did not return a message. At 23 weeks, an otherwise healthy fetus would have a slim but legitimate chance of survival. Quadruplets born at 23 weeks last year at The Nebraska Medical Center survived. An autopsy determined Williams' baby — she named her Shanice — had filled her lungs with air, meaning she had been born alive, according to the Department of Health. The cause of death was listed as extreme prematurity. The Department of Health believes Renelique committed malpractice by failing to ensure that licensed personnel would be present when Williams was there, among other missteps. The department wants the Board of Medicine, a separate agency, to permanently revoke Renelique's license, among other penalties. His license is currently restricted, permitting him to only perform abortions when another licensed physician is present and can review his medical records. Should prosecutors file murder charges, they'd have to prove the baby was born alive, said Robert Batey, a professor of criminal law at Stetson University College of Law in Gulfport. The defense might contend that the child would have died anyway, but most courts would not allow that argument, he said. "Hastening the death of an individual who is terminally ill is still considered causing the death of that individual," Batey said. "And I think a court would rule similarly in this type of case."

Has anyone had a hysterectomy? I'm considering one and looking for information about recovery times, post-op, etc.

My doctor wants me to take a cortisol test, and that's measured through urine output. So I have to pee into a container for 24 hours -- it looks awfully small to me and I'm wondering if I'll fill it up! We'll see. It's pretty gross to open up the refrigerator and see it sitting there. Blech.

I've been searching on the internet for about the past hour as to how to repeal a California constitutional amendment (just for my own edification). I can't find a definitive answer anywhere. Does anyone know the answer to this? It is a simple majority to repeal or does it require more once the amendment is in the constitution?

My cortisol was completely within range, so there's nothing wrong with my adrenal glands. The only thing the accompanying blood tests showed was that my Iron storage Protein was totally depleted. I'm not anemic, just borderline anemic, but I have zero iron storage so I need to get myself on iron. Blech.

I never commented on your knowledge of the Electoral College. You commented on mine. Is there something else you'd like to contribute about the EC? Or do you just want to slam me personally?

Yeah, cuz my degree means nothing.

It varies state by state, but it is generally a process where the political parties nominate people at the state conventions or by a vote of the party's central committee. They are often the political leaders or sometimes personal friends of such. Because the electors could conceivably choose to cast their vote for someone other than the candidate their state selected (voted for), the political parties are generally pretty careful that they choose loyal party members as electors.

I lived in a nice area on the border of a not-so-nice area when the LA riots happened. I will never forget that. Rioting is a very scary thing and spreads very quickly.

You guys amaze me.

I love it how now matter what I say, even if it's personal experience, I'm questioned or accused of something. If you noticed, I said my kids were in a production. It's not in a very safe place. And I don't give a hoot where I am and whether or not the "County" is generally safe (last I checked, Santa Ana had quite a bit of crime, BTW); if my family's protection is at stake, I take precautions.