TommyO

Re "Is it your position that nothing in life is defined and everything is up for interpretation? Because that's what it sounds like. In my experience, in all disciplines, not just religion, some things are ambiguous and some things are perfectly clear. But I guess it just depends on what your definition of "is" is." Everything in life is up for interpretation, that is why the world is so diverse. You so Tomaaaato I say Tomato. We all bring our own set of instructions to the table. We define our experience based on our experience. No one is free of prejudice or malice and for that matter no one is void of good. If you think that some things are perfectly clear then you are not looking hard enough. Everyday I learn new things, things that I thought were true one day became unclear the next. That is the mystery of life and that is what makes living so worthwhile. I have no problem that you beleive in God but as soon as you present him to me in the fashion you do I quickly reject that version of him. I can't for the life of me beleive that a being that is all knowing could come to those conclusions. If I new everything I feel certain I would have come up with very different conclusions. I can't beleive that an omnipitant and devine creature could be as unwise as the one holy books portary. I also can't beleive that this supreme being would find it neccassary to keep themselves a secret. It's akin to a parent having a child and then leaving them in a field expecting them to grow to be be big and strong and wise and to also expect that they love He/She. we both have journeyed through life and come to very different conclusions. There may be a very few things that we agree on and still that does not make them true. We may agree for example that the sky is blue but that does not make it so. The sky in fact is not blue, at least I think so. I am not afraid of a world that is up for interpretation as a matter of fact I love that about life. I am not afraid of the unkown, I prefer it. When you tell me you "know something to be true" I think you are wrong. Decarte said if we remove all that is not true we can make only one statement of truth "I think therefore I am" Someone esle who I can't remember then came up with "I think I think therefore, I think I am". I would say "I don't care as long as I think I'm thinking I think that's good enough.

It seems that the written word is up for interpretation, as a matter of fact the spoken word is far less ambiguous than the written word and still people will interpret based on their perspective. The phrase "and just what do you mean by that" comes to mind. The passage "the only way to the Farther is through the Son"! may seem to have a single message for many. But I disagree, I can find more that one possible interpretation for that statement. It is not unusual for the words that people write on this site to be read differently than the author had intended. We come to the party with unique perspectives and backgrounds and it is against those canvasses that we interpret the written word. Even if the bible is divinely written, a premise I don't believe, it is not devinely interpreted. Mere mortals are reading it and mere mortals are procaliming that they know what the intent was. What if God said the only way to the Farther is through the Son????

"A child that I knew was warned constantly about going out into the street. He didn't heed the warning and one day he was hit by a car and died. He apparently didn't comprehend the warning or just disregarded it. That is what I feel I am watching!!" I can't imagine writing a story such as that in the manner in which it was written and not be seen as an unfeeling, uncaring, unholy person. You seem to be saying that the kid deserved to die because they did not heed the warning. Imagine a world where everyone held such beliefs. If we are to believe that this is an accurate depiction of the relationship between God and his children then I can't help but say that your God is a Bad parent. As a parent I made sure my children didn't run into the oncoming traffic. I told them many times not to run out into the street but I also recognized that they were children and I made sure they were safe. I have heard analogies that talk about a child being told that the element on the stove is hot and yet they put their hand on it anyway. You have decided to turn the stove into a roadway and burnt fingers become a dead child. Oh what a caring sole you must truly be...

He's on the hook, Oh and by the way I also thought I wasn't going to post here but I can't resist. You make me want to fish. If Jesus was a fisher of men then I can be a fisher bitter little men. Now go ahead swallow

I dare say, based on a certain interpretation, heaven will include only two people God and Himself, and that may still be only be a single person. Please do tell where you studied for 30 years so I can be certain to avoid that institution. From what I can gather someone spent 30 years studying to become narrow minded. I would only be guessing but I bet the 30 years was spent validating an already intolerant view. That may have been all you were willing to learn, that and at least one Johnny cash song. I have nothing to back this up but I can't help but think that someone may get a big surprise when they get to the pearly gates

Okay, here is my last post on this thread only because I think it's time to move on. Ron in repsonse to your last post to me, please don't pretend that your statement about going down to this level was not directed at me at least in some way. I doubt very much you could win that debate, As far as me using wise cracks and goading you, I have not denied that tactic ever, I actually think that it is somewhat obvious that I did that. It was done to see how you would react and sorry but you reacted as I expected. I don't understand why you think you get to decide the rules of engangement. If I don't play by your rules I am a bag of wind full of hot air. I am not goading you now when I say I don't believe in God, I am simply stating a fact. You want me do believe that there is scientific evidence to prove that there is a God. I feel strongly that that is hooey. I am also unwilling to spend countless hours searching for evidence to prove you wrong or me right for that matter. From my perspective you began this debate with me when you spoke directly to me and said tell him that when you see him, or something similar to that. The implied message was "God is gonna get you" and there would appear to also be an implied glee from you in that message. That is why I disaprove of your God, I do not however disapprove of everyones Gods only the ones who are unwilling to see the good in people even though they have faults. Your God seems vain, spitefull and very narrow minded to me. I will finish with this, some people believe that God created man in his own image, I believe Man creates God in his own image. Tell me about your God and I will tell you about you

Why are you unwilling to take responsibility for your actions, You threatenend me with God but you say it's his wish not yours. God has not threatened me, you have but you take no responsibility. You say it is I who made you act inapropriately, it's not your fault it's mine. You say you do not wish to make yourself feel superior and then talk of coming down to my level, the level of a wind bag full of hot air who's opinion is baselless. I can't imagine how that might be percieved as a superior atittude. Your bad actions are my fault but you are willing to take ownership for anything good you may have done. It is not God I have any issue with, it is your version of God that I disapprove of.

A fool maybe but not a coward' the world has no shortage of charlatans and false profits. In my youth I met a number of them and they were all the same speaking out of both sides of their mouths. A message of Love for all like them, but venomouse hatred for those who are different. They cowardly veil their words so as to appear loving. When you read between the lines there is another message that includes a wink and a nudge but you know what their intent is. In my youth they spoke from the pulpit and they handed out flyers, today they have websites but the message is always the same. They remind us of the evil that exists the hearts of others and how they want to destroy us. We must act soon and swiftly against the evil foe so as to destroy them first, before they can destroy goodness. They are quick to point out that the evil foe is evil so destroying them is good and even though their actions are the same as the evil foe they are justified because God agrees with them. They are cowards however because they don't have the guts to come out and say what they really mean and they viel their message, so even though you know what they are saying they only hint at it. When you call them on it they are quick to yell prove it and they say things like " I defy you to show me where I said that". There methods are always similar, they start with the serman, when someone objects they tell them they know better, when the objection becomes stronger, they get nasty and threaten hell fire, more objection more nastiness and hell fire. Lets not forget the occasional pat on the head for the member of the flock who agrees with them, then more spewing of hatred for the evil foe. They were most often the greatest sinners and when they are not sinning they are the most holy people on the planet. It's all or nothing for these folks. They are out doing the worst things one day then off to heaven siiting on the right hand of the father the next. They call names but from a distance, they have others do their bidding but most of all they are cowards

There once was a man from Comack His mouth went Yakity Yak But all he could say was he'll get you one day along with some silly attack

Oh I'd say your name calling there Rony Boy but I also consider the source and to the quote you use from the bible I say right back at you Rony Boy. "I don't know how old you are but I have an idea how old you are mentally" That coming from the guy who keeps saying things like; "rather use ti to have discussion with people that have the capacity to have serious intelligent discussion" and "You don't want everyone here to think you're a big blowhard would you" Soon you'll be getting everyone in your grade three class to stop talking to me Keep fighting the good fight Rony Boy you scare more away then you bring in

I renounce Duh and would love to Join FSM if you'll have me. Can I be a Pirate? Cheers TommyO

I think your missing the point Rony Boy, You continue to prove my point in every statement you make. Your incredible wisdom seems to be void of any vision but it's good to see that you are now quoting Johnny Cash and not just the bible. And now the name calling, it seems so un-Christian for such a holy man. My goodness God would be mad I think. Maybe just those comments are just the rants of of "ravening wolf" Still not upset Rony Boy!!

Oh and by the way speaking of changing the subject, what ever happened to your desire to fight Anti-Semitism in France. You know that whole boycott the evil French thing. Is iy okay if we fight Anti-Semtism everywhere or is it only important to boycott country's that chose not to agree with American policy. Oh and are we able to fight Anti-Semitism against all Jews or only those who are completed?

Sorry but I have no need back anything up, you have done that nicely for me Rony Boy

Well now, it sounds like you may be getting upset, shouldn't you be turning the other cheek?? If you can't take the heat stay out of the kicthen Rony Boy.

C'mon Rony Boy you never stop making THE CLAIM, you know it all and have all the answers. I bet you love patting your flock on their heads and telling them how proud you are of them as they live thier lives as you, I mean Christ, has chosen.

Hey Ron, it's not my bible so you can't convince me by quoting it. Now here are some thoughts below you might want to ponder as you proclaim to all your full understanding of God and his intent. New Testament Mat 7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity Mat 24:11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. 2 Pet 2:1 [NIV] But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them--bringing swift destruction on themselves. 2 Pet 2:2 [NIV] Many will follow their shameful ways and will bring the way of truth into disrepute. 2 Pet 2:3 [NIV] In their greed these teachers will exploit you with stories they have made up. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping. 1 John 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. 2 Tim 4:2 [NIV] Preach the Word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage--with great patience and careful instruction. 2 Tim 4:3 For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. 2 Tim 4:4 They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths. Old Testament Deu 18:20 But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die. Deu 18:21 And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we know the word which the LORD hath not spoken? Deu 18:22 When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him. Isa 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them. Jer 14:14 Then the LORD said unto me, The prophets prophesy lies in my name: I sent them not, neither have I commanded them, neither spake unto them: they prophesy unto you a false vision and divination, and a thing of nought, and the deceit of their heart. Jer 14:15 Therefore thus saith the LORD concerning the prophets that prophesy in my name, and I sent them not, yet they say, Sword and famine shall not be in this land; By sword and famine shall those prophets be consumed. Jer 14:16 And the people to whom they prophesy shall be cast out in the streets of Jerusalem because of the famine and the sword; and they shall have none to bury them, them, their wives, nor their sons, nor their daughters: for I will pour their wickedness upon them.

Ron I will "Tell Him That" but what will you tell him. I can only imagine what you may have done in your life to need such forgiveness. Let me tell you a little secret, I have no secrets and because of that I have no fear. If your God is so smart I am sure he will be able to figure out that being a good person is what matters. I feel comfortable that if that day comes he will have far more to discuss with you. I grew up surrounded by christians who were good people. I had 3 aunts who were Catholic Nun's and they devoted their lives to Gods work. I loved them dearly and that love was returned in kind. I have no problem with their Christianity or any Christianity that is good. Many people who post on this site are Christians and they are good people. I am very happy that they are secure in their beleifs and happy in their choices. I am also secure in my beliefs and happy in my choices and I know I am a good person. I do not beleif in God but I also am not a sinner by anyones standards. I feel extremely confident that over the course of our lifetimes it is highly likely that you have sinned the most. I don't know you but I think I have a pretty good idea who you are. Do the words false prophet mean anything to you, Judge not oh great and powerful OZ. I know you feel a strong sense of satisfaction when you imagine how your God will settle the score with me on judgement day. But the God of my Aunts and other good Christians isn't coming for me ask not for whom the Bell tolls Rony Boy.............

How many Creationists have become Menbers of Duh!, I think they all have and are unwilling to admit it. AS far as my ideas being rediculous, realy?? you think I am being rediculous?? I'm serious, my Mother would have been created with a memory that the supremme being would have implanted so she only beleives she was around before I was born. I ,mean c'mon He is the supreme being he can do anything. The creationists beleive he created the universe in 7 days he most assuredly could have given everyone who is older then 48 (Today I might add and yes I miscounted by a year so the world is actually 48) A complete memory. I can't beleive you said the theory of Duh! was rediculous, imagine if I implied that Creationism was rediculous?...........Oh wait, ummm I must be going now

God is God if he's as great and powerfull as you say then he is the resaon, cause, solution...... for everything. Guns don't kill people people do God doesn't cause fights people cause fights Cows don't make methane their stomachs do If God made man in his own image, the only thing we can honestly say is God is a mess. TommyO

ID and creationists start with a belief and then set about to prove it correct. Evolution started out as a question looking for an answer. Two very different approaches I suggest. Tomorrow I turn 47, and from my perspective the world/universe began that day. A supreme being decided that it was time for a little fun so it decided to create the TommyO universe. Based on that premise I have decided to prove that the world is 47 years old and I can use much of the same argument as the creationist use. My theory will be called Design unto Him (Him being TommyO) or Duh for short. Now go ahead and disprove my theory, In no time I will put together all sorts of arguments why the other theory is wrong making mine right. My theory is much closer to ID and creationism in it's premise so I would like to invite all of those folks to become active members in my society. If you do we can ten safely say that If the theory of evolution is wrong it proves that we are right Duh! P.S the supreme being made me in his image so it's nice to know he is not skinny but he does have a rather large________ P.S.S He does approve of the band and he gave me a brain so I could think for myself and I do

Green, I am not able to spend much time on the board lately but I just did some looking at other threads and now I understand your question. Please don't ask he creeps me out TommyO

We have laws to protect the innocent and we believe that these laws are the foundation of a just society. Rather 10 guilty men go free than 1 innocent man be hanged. I am willing to live with the consequence of that belief and those are the types freedoms I believe are worth fighting for. However as I say these words I speak as a Canadian and I know that the great majority of my country men agree with me. I also know that the majority of my neighbors to the south would agree with that premise and that makes me very happy. The words that I have read on this forum have shown me that. There are some who disagree and to me they are all the same. They talk of evil doers and they agree that they need to be destroyed. They are willing to committ horrible acts and they have committed horrible acts. They talk of different enemies and they pray to different Gods but they spout very similar rhetoric. Whether they are Muslim or Christian they are willing to fight and kill those they believe to be evil and they are more than happy to take away the rights of those whom they disagree with. If you are one of them I feel the same sense of dread and revulsion for you whether you live here or somewhere esle. I believe that it will be people with those sorts of beliefs who will eventually cause the end of this world. They will be quick to push the button to save a set of beliefs that are narrow of scope and simplistic at best. TommyO

Curcumsized or not I wonder what he uses it for, Maybe that's where we get the term "The Big Bang" TommyO

Wait a minute did someone say god has a Penis, after all the discusion about ID and evolution someone actually said; "I'm sure he does have a Penis, if Adam has one why wouldn't God." I am just getting over then whole "Does Adam have a Belly Button" issue and now I have to think about God having a Penis. If I were God I would definitly give myself a big one, mind you I would probably know how to use it much better. AnyHoo, I have very much enjoyed the debate over ID versus evolution.