TommyO

Hey ousooner, I see your goal is 5k by Labour day, I ran 5k for the first time on Sunday, it took 35 minutes but I ran the whole way. Cheers TommyO

Look, it appears to me that religion is used by many to verify their opinion, so If someone wants to justify pretty much anything they can usually find a quote from the bible that will prove their opinion especially if they are a conservative. It isn't hard to imagine that a book written a thousand or more years ago would contain some old-world opinions. It is also appropriatte to note that even though it has been disputed, the truth is that slavery was justified by people of religion in much the same way fundamentalist Christians justify taking away the rights of Gays and Lesbians. Nowhere in the bible is there any reference to guns but I am certain that you will find some passage that you can use to justify your position on the gun issue. It is interesting that the bible seems to be so inline with the views of right wing American thinking. Is is possible that you interpret it based on your beleifs not that your beliefs are based on it's teaching. Every time someone brings up some negative thing that has been done in the name of Christianity the response is that those were/are not true Christians. If you could tell me how I identify the good guys from the bad guys it would make things a lot easier. Please don't tell me that the good guys are the ones who follow the teachings of the bible. It would seem they all say that they do so I can only conclude that the bible is up for interpretation. I watched Jesus camp on the weekend, it made me realize how much I disagree with the fundamenatlist Christian doctrine. I realize it was slanted but it certainly painted a negative picture of that segment of society. It seemed sad how narrow their view of the world was. I have to say if those are the folks who I will be with in heaven I don't want to go.

The Gun debate is not a debate, It is statistically proven fact that in countries with high per capita gun ownership Gun crimes are significantly higher. As an example Toronto Canada averages about 2.3 murders per 100,000 citizens a year and of these murders 1.3 are commited using guns. In Chicago those numbers are about 6 times higher on average and Chicago places 48th on the list of murder rates for American cities. Toronto and Chicago are often compared because they are similar in size. The gun debate is only debated in the USA the rest of the western world has stopped the debate and looked to the facts. The NRA does spend a large amount muddying the waters so I can understand the confusion. This is similar to the Global warming debate in that the only place where some people still beleive that Gun control is bad or that Global warming is a myth is the USA. It does seem odd that in both cases that the charge is being led by the religious right, I guess Jesus said somewhere "Feel free to shoot people and don't worry about destroying the planet" Cheers TommyO

T_O_M, I hope things improve for you and I am sorry for your loss.

I must agree with Green, but I would like to add that as a Canadian I take great pride in being a citizen who participates in a system of equality. Much of what Canada stands for is based on all people being treated as equals. If you are White, Black, Brown, English speaking, French speaking,Male, Female, Gay, Straight etc you should be treated as an equal memeber of society. So for example if a Holly book said that speaking any language other than English was wrong we as Canadians would not stand for a law that reinforces that beleif. This is why so many Canadians have no issue with same sex marriage, to us it is much the same as saying that a person of another race can be legally unjustly treated. But Canada is not perfect by any stretch of the imagination, we do have a underclass. We still have a lot of work to do with minority rights but I think we are working to get there. Ron, you use the terms "Liberal" and "Politically correct" with a certain malevolence, I view them very differently. I actually believe that history shows us that Liberalism has moved the world forward in a very positive direction. I would also venture a guess that the Jesus of the bible was a Liberal for his day and I bet he was also politically correct when set against the backdrop of Roman Empire circa 0020.

Sunta, I can only partially agree with your statements, I agree with you that I am apposed to how the church subjegates women and reinforces a role of subservience. I do however applaud the good that many religious people do in the world and even though they may have a different perspective on certain issues I am happy that many of them spend many hours doing good. As I have said in the past I had three aunts that were Catholic nuns and their views on the role of women were very different than mine. They did however devout their lives to helping the sick, poor and less fortunate and for that they deserve some gratitude. I think that it is easy to find fault with religion but we must also temper our feelings because there are many good people (Mother Theresa) who we slander when we refer to an entire group as BS.

I fear death but not enough to need heaven, I beleive that death is similar to non REM sleep and I do not fear sleep. I would say that death saddens me but it does not seem to me to be something I need to fear. To me death is no worse than what I expereinced before I was born and I do not look back with dread when I think of what it was like before I was born. I think, and I could be wrong, but the greater the fear of death an individual has the more likely they will believe in heaven. I aslo feel that the greater the common fears of a society the more that society needs God and religion. The United Sates has always been a society of fear, far more so than here in Canada and Americans tend to be far more religious than Canadians. Another example of this is that studies show that more Americans have gone back to church since 9/11. As American's have become more afraid of the world they have looked for safety in the church. In Canada we are far less fearful of the outside world, maybe because no one is much interested in us, at least not enough to want to bomb our city's. Because of this we are less afraid of the rest of the world and as such we do not need to feel protected by God or by heaven. I also think that fear creates aggresion so the greater the fear the greater the likelyhood of violence. In Canada we seem to be less afraid of the world and we are also far more apposed to War than Americans. It seems to be somewhat ironic but societies who are the most afraid of bein attacked by an enemy are often the most war like and they are also often the most religious. Hence the folks who talk of a belief in a kind and loving God also talk the most about blowing up their enemy to protect themselves. Does this not seem a little odd, it does to me!!

You've all heard the saying "It's better to have loved and lossed than never to have loved at all. As young man in University my male freinds and I made our own version of the saying "It's better to have failed your Wasserman than never to have loved at all" Wassermann, Definition - a blood test to detect syphilis So I guess I would agree with your premise Laurend although I think you may be inadvertantly implying that having sex with someone whom you know does not have an STD allows you to claim virginity

When you decide to have sex or with who they decide to have sex with is up to the individual, I do not think that people who decide to wait for mairrage before having sex are doing anything wrong. To me it's no different than deciding that you want to wait until the next year to go on a trip, it's your decision. I do take issue when there is an assumption of guilt by abstainers for all those who choose not to wait. The idea that those who wait are doing something good is incorrect. The list of things that Gadget Lady presented is not logicall to me. I have never worried about any of those items and I never will. I can't imagine what would make someone worry about those items except possibly being taught that sex was bad as a child. I am only guessing but that 10 year old boy who was taught to look away from ladies might worry about that when he's grown up. I am prone to think that only someone who was raised by someone of such puritanical beleifs would have those sorts of thoughts going through their minds. I plan to go to Europe next year I have no problem with anyone who goes this year but I bet they are msitaken

I also do not fear being ubducted by aliens because I do not beleive they exist, secondly if I am wrong I still have no fear because I assume they have no reason to abduct me and Finally if they did have a reason to abduct me I assume it would be based on good intentions. So I do not fear the "loss of heaven or the pains of hell" beacause I do not beleive they exist, If I am wrong however I still have no fear because I am confident any being that is omnipotent would not consider torture a reasonable response to my life. That was the point I was driving at, it makes no sense to me that there is a God, but if I am wrong I can't imagine that a being with that intellect would come to the conclusions that most religions say they have. I assume that if you are "all knowing" you would conclude that sending people off to hell and damnation makes little sense. What if for example I was born in some backwards place 500 years ago that had not yet been lucky enough to be conquered by those wonderful christian empires looking for slaves. I doubt God is going to send me off to hell because I didn't have a personal relationship with Jesus. I may be sounding sarcastic but it is not my intention, I have been told on this thread that the only way to heaven is through Jesus, sorry but I refuse to beleive in such an unwise God. I prefer to beleive in no God rather than beleive in the one I hear described by many people of religion. Please do not take this as an attack on Christianity, I feel the same way about all religions, I have yet to find one that does not come up short on reason at some point.

The statement "I don't believe in God" in no way implies that there is no God nor does it imply that it is a factual statement. When one includes the term "believe" in a statement there is an implification that they could be wrong. Traditionaly Atheists tend to say things like they don't beleive in God. Theists on the other hand tend to make statements that are more definitive like "God exists of that I am certain" That is why there may be a sesnse that fundamenatlist Chrsitians are more close minded. I should also add that most atheist do not fear the reprecusions of there being a God because it makes no sense to them that he would be a bad diety and send them off to hell simply because the chose not to believe. I guess that is why fundamantalist Christians respond with the great fear factor "Your gonna burn" Just my thoughts!

Green, I think that whether we believe in God or not the pain we go through when we lose the people we love is the same. When one of my Aunts died I drove my other aunt (her sister) to the funeral. She wept for most of the drive, about 2 hours. She missed her sister until the day she died and she went through all of the same emotions that I did when I lost my sister. We had long discussions over this sense of loss and it was intersting to us how we both seemed to share a similar experience given that I am an athiest and she was a Nun. She had a very strong sense that she would meet her sister in heaven but still she felt a sense of loss and was often overcome with grief. We get through it by going through it, we may use different tools but we make it to the other end. Believing in life after death may help some of us through these tragic periods but I beleive that demanding Life during Life is what gets us through to the other side.

If considerring the possibility there is a God is more positive than being close minded. Is not being able to consider the possibility that there is no God negative and close minded?

Sunta, I agree with you 100%, as a youth I suffered incredible guilt over masterbation. (Possibly to much information) I grew up Catholic and we were told that masterbation was a sin. Being a typical adulescent I still did it on a regular basis but was always worried that I would one day burn in hell. This cause me incredible agnst, and I was always worried I can laugh now but I think it is terrible that I was subjected to such incredible remorse because of some infintile beliefs. I wonder how many folks didn't masterbate before marriage and if they beleive that this is a sin. There is an old joke that I am reminded of John goes to heaven and he is walking around with ST. Peter and he notices a room full of clocks with peoples names on them. He asks ST. Peter what the clocks are for and Peter tells him that they are not clocks. They are masterbation meters and everytime a person on earth masterbates the minute hand moves one spot. John walks around the room looking at the clocks with his freinds names on them. He notices that he can't find TommyO's clock (Insert the name of the person you are telling the joke to) So he asks Peter why there is no clock for his good freind TommyO. Peter tells "Oh we're using that one as a fan in the kitchen. Cheers TommyO

I, like most of you have been faced with the loss of a loved one. Although I do not believe they are in heaven I have no concern that I will never see or be with them again. They continue to live in me, in my memeories and in my heart. I see them on regular basis, in my thoughts, my dreams and my day dreams. We all live on in the people we leave behind. I visit my Sisters grave on a regular basis and I talk to her, not because I think she can hear me but because I can hear me and these moments make her memory more vivid. I take great comfort in those visits because she exists in me, not believing in God or heaven has no impact on my ability to spend time with my memory of her.

Lisah, Agree 100% those are the words I was looking for, having sex and making love are two very different things. Green I also say Hurrah for my misspent youth, I enjoy being reminded of my past, I relish all of my todays and look forward to the future. (Although I hope the future takes it's time). If you are familiar with the celtic song "The Parting Glass" here is a verse and chorus that I truly feel describes my feelings as I take my leave at the end of the day. The parting Glass For All the money that ere' I spent I spent it in good company And all the harm that ere' I have done Allas it was to none but me And so It falls unto my lot That I should rise and you should not I will gently rise and I'll softly call Good Night I enjoyed being with you all I don't know if it is relevant to the topic but it is a great song. I doubt, If I were to have sung it in my youth, it would have been as well recieved after a night of sex as it was after a night spent in a pub. Cheers TommyO

I have been happily married for 20 years and both my wife and I had sex before we married, together and with other partners. My marriage is the second best thing that has happened to me. (Having my children is the best) I do not regrett any of the sex I had before I was married, as a matter of fact I am very happy I had it and would not change a thing if I had to do things over again. Sex is great and I enjoy it every time I do it but it is not always such a big deal. I have never nor would I ever consider having an affair but my reason for this is because it would betray a trust I have with my wife. Sex, to me, is not some sacred act between a Husband and a wife it is rather an incredibly pleasent act that is greatly increased when enjoyed with another human being. As a male however I understand that females take it more seriously on an emotional level so I don't want to belittle those feelings. There is an old saying that I agree with. "Sex alone isn't everything but sex with somebody esle comes pretty close"

I would like to chime in here as I think that a key piece of the rational vs irational and logical vs illogical argument is being missed. I do not think that believing a supreme being, creatore or God is irrational. As a matter of fact I beleive that if there was a God they would have been capable enough to create the universe as we know it. They would also be more than capable enough to do all of this and make it appear to be have science as it's base. I would be somewhat disapointed if the creatore did not have those abilities, I mean really, an all powerfull omnipotent being should have no problem pulling that off. The whole premise loses me when you then try and imagine that that same being would then leave us with such bad quality information outlining their intent. I can't read the bible or any other Holy book and logically conclude that it was devinely inspired by the creatore. I can't believe for example that God would create the universe in all it's Glory then decide to create Adam and Eve in the fashion that the bible and fundamentalist Christians insists He/She did. I could go on and on but I think you get the point, I think that a supreme being would have done a much better job on the whole documentation peice. As an old friend of mine would often say "It just don't make no sense"

I am certain Ritchie Cunningham would be greatly offended, poor Clarabel.

Howdy Doody, you are dating youself the only time I saw Howdy Doody was when I watched Happy Days as a teen. Maybe because I lived in a small town with only 3 channels on the TV. I plan to by some shampoo myself, time to get back to sanity. I think that fun Tommy needs to return. I am feeling a little sheepish after my discusion with himself, possibly a little emabarrased. I lost my cool and got off the rails but I am commited to getting my humour back. TommyO

I was just reading the other thread, please don't tell me I embarrased myself fighting with Dody??????

Catch phrase type war names are created to gain public support, they are marketing devices not based on reality. America could just as easily fighting a war between the "Tastes Great" and "Less Filling" factions. Just add the words "Evil Doer" to one of the sides and we now have a right and a wrong. Who doesn't want to defeat the "Less Filling Evil Doers" especially since they worship a different Supreme being.

As long as we believe that there is a "War on Terror" we will continue to see innocent people die.

Ron, I have no problem with you stating your opinion and as you say you have no problem with others stating their opinions but then you go on to define how they should state said opinion or how they should respond. You cannot set the ground rules for the debate for the other participants. You continue to try and enforce your rules of engagement and when others choose not to follow those rules you then insist that this proves you right. Same for you Gadget, you can not force people to answer your questions, they will answer if they choose but silence is not acceptance nor should it be used as proof of your assumptions. If I believe that the statements you make are foolish I can choose to respond in a fashion that best suits that sentiment. You may decide to ingnore me but the truth is how the words are presented is an important as the words themselves. The Author is also an important piece to the puzzle as well. As soon as you see the name TommyO you have already made some key assumptions to the content of my post. I propose that you have created an enviroment for yourself and when readers read your posts they have already made decisions on the value of the content and whether or not they agree. You are responsible for the reactions of others to your posts but you insist it is the fault of others. Once again you blame those who baited and mocked you for your actions rather than accept that it was you who reacted in that fashion.

Tom, I would hope for scenario #1 and if there is a God and if he is as wise as they say he will let us all attend. TommyO