Carlene

I think it was all about the Statue of Liberty holding a cross. That might be offensive to Jewish people. Would you be offended if the statue were holding a Star of David? Maybe it was the Ten Commandments. You know, they aren't actually ours. They were given to Moses, for his people - who were Jewish. What about the crescent moon, the symbol of Islamic belief? I would love, just as a test, to see someone erect a giant Statue of Liberty holding the crescent moon and star. I'm guessing the outcry would be deafening.

What an asinine statement. I read the other day on CNN that 40% of all babies born in the US last year were born out of wedlock. How is that more "conscionable" than two women having/raising a child together? The involvement of a penis does not impart either wisdom or virtue.

"We are winning the war," Army Chief of Staff Gen. Harold K. Johnson said of Vietnam in August 1967. "No, Mr. President, we are not winning the war," Republican Rep. Tim Lee Carter told President Lyndon Johnson. "We shall persist, and America shall succeed," President Johnson said in June 1966. Oct. 25: President Bush said, "Absolutely, we're winning." Tuesday: Robert Gates, defense secretary nominee, told a Senate panel, "No, sir." These guys (Johnson and Bush) have a lot in common. Johnson didn't want to go down in history as the President who lost the war in Vietnam. George Bush is now in the same boat, and it's sinking fast. It sucks to be you, George.

Just thought I'd mention that Dick Cheney's oldest daughter gave birth to her fifth child in July. Not only is she highly educated, but she's one smart lady, as well. And his younger daughter - yes, the Lesbian - is expecting a baby, too. Congrats to them both!

Diane... I am extremely envious. My mom didn't enjoy being a parent. That may have come later, after she and my dad split up, and she had to go it alone, I don't know. She did everything she was supposed to. She kept us clean, and fed. She bought us most of the same stuff the other kids had. She just never seemed happy to be doing any of the mom stuff. She stopped putting up a tree at Christmas as soon as I left home. I always felt like I was a huge burden to my mother. My brother was much older than me, so I grew up almost like an only child. I was a latchkey child, as my older (almost 40 when I was born)single mother worked two jobs most of my life, and she was tired when she got home. She didn't like having a bunch of neighborhood kids in the house, making a mess and playing loud music. It was lonely. I loved babies. My single greatest desire growing up was to get married and have a bunch of kids. I stopped at four, but I tried really hard to be a GREAT mom. I hope my kids think back on their childhoods with half the warmth and appreciation you have for yours.

By Bill Nichols and Barbara Slavin, USA TODAY WASHINGTON — Conditions in Iraq are "grave and deteriorating," a high-level study warned today, urging the White House to accelerate diplomacy across the Middle East in the hopes of bringing most U.S. troops home by 2008. The much-awaited report from the 10-member, bi-partisan, congressionally-mandated Iraq Study Group said President Bush's policy in Iraq "is not working." Said former Indiana Rep. Lee Hamilton, the group's co-chairman: "Our ship of state has hit rough waters. It must now chart a new way forward." Former secretary of State James Baker, the commission's other co-chair, said the stay-the-course approach in Iraq long supported by Bush "is no longer viable." Decisions on a new policy "should be made with some urgency." Bush received the report in an early morning meeting at the White House and pledged to treat its recommendations seriously and to act in "timely fashion." "This report gives a very tough assessment of the situation in Iraq," Bush said. "This report will give us all an opportunity to find common ground." The report's recommendations are not binding and other reviews of Iraq policy are underway by the Pentagon, State Department and White House. Bush has signaled, however, that the suggestions of the study group will be taken seriously, both because the panel is bi-partisan and because Baker and Hamilton are two of Washington's most respected senior statesmen.

Sure we can....and we ARE, even as we speak. Our new Secretary of Defense said it, too. We are not winning the war in Iraq. That's what he said, and my money's on him. I think the man knows whereof he speaks.

Well, that just kinda goes without saying, don't you think? People in favor of slavery were all free, I'm sure.

I don't think the business is in his home. I think he owns the building where the business is located.

By the way, KY Gal, I loved your post. I think its humorous appeal must have gotten squashed by the giant, smiting hand of the Christians, or maybe no one saw it because Sunta's Pasta diety flew over and pooped on it. In any case, I thought it was very funny!

You are absolutely right. I didn't realize this until I stopped smoking. Now I can smell it on my daughter's children when they come to visit, and I promise you, it's not because the six year-old is lighting up on the playground. It's because they live with a smoker. I once made someone an afghan and sent it to them for Christmas. I found out later that they had to wash it before they could stand to be near the thing, even though they thought it was lovely. And I didn't smoke while I crocheted the afghan. Just sitting around in my smoke-filled house between those times I actually picked it up was enough to impregnate the fibers with the very nasty, very long-lasting stench of cigarette smoke. By the way, I hate to admit this, but I once had a little sign on my office door that said, "I smoke....Thank you for not breathing". Tacky, tacky, tacky.

You can't really ignore the President and still address the issues. George Bush is responsible for the US invasion of Iraq and for our continued presence there. A presence that, according to this morning's news, has now exceed our involvement, time-wise, in WWII and has cost us more than 500 BILLION dollars - or ten times the President's original estimate. The excuse that he may have relied on "bad information" only goes so far. No WMD? No problem....tip-toe quietly out of the country and close the door behind you. And the Iraqi people were not begging for liberation, by the way. But even if they had, it isn't necessarily our obligation to police the world and rid it of tyrants, dictators, and the like. Great Britain DID beg the US for help, long before we finally declared war on Germany. We ignored their pleas, causing, indirectly, many lost lives. Does that mean we were the bad guys? No, it means that we were reluctant to get involved in somebody else's war. Sometimes minding your own business is terribly underrated.

Oh, I think she fully recognizes that her posts reflect disdain for Christian beliefs. She isn't stupid, and I doubt that she would be very open to etiquette lessons, considering the fact that Sunta has received pretty much as good as she's given. In case no one has noticed, the Atheists who post here are a very bright bunch. Personally, I like just about all of them. I don't necessarily agree with everything they post, but I have never agreed 100% with anyone, so what's the difference? The difference is that I don't feel like I have to defend the Christian mindset at every opportunity. I believe - they don't. In the end, if I'm right, I get to say, "I told you so" and they get to ask for ice Water. If I'm wrong, nothing happens. Sounds like a safe bet to me.

Why am I not surprised to hear that you are planning a trip to North Korea? I'm so jealous. My DH is retired from AA. We can fly anywhere in the world for free, or nearly so. But DH is certain that he will die if he crosses the USA border, except for Canada, and direct to/from flights to all-inclusive resorts in Mexico (although it took a lot of persuasion to even get that small concession). I want to see Russia. He offered to take me to the airport.

Kathy... As a Christian, I understand your righteous indignation. I left another thread awhile back because someone made derogatory comments about my church - the Catholic church. I left the thread, and you KNOW that's not my usual style, because in an open forum, it IS okay to disdain the religious beliefs of others. Maybe it isn't tasteful, or politically correct, but it's within the rules, nevertheless. It's not "personal". I know you TOOK it personally (so did I, when my beliefs were ridiculed), but it's still an argument - an opinion - and not a personal attack on you, as an individual. I get a lot of posts addressed to me, because I post a lot myself. (What can I say....I think everyone is entitled to my opinion.) And I get quite a few PMs, too. Not all of them are flattering, as you may have noticed. Bottom line...if you want to scrap it out online, that's fine. It's a lot of fun for someone like me, who likes to argue. But if you are going to wade into the fray, you have to be prepared to get bloodied once in a while. Sunta is not a believer, so of course she is going to scoff and poke fun at what she considers "religious nuts". Atheists hate nothing worse than having Christianity shoved down their throats, hence the remarks about the statue (and her signature line). As for the quiverfull movement, Sunta thinks it's socially irresponsible to bring 18 or 20 children per couple into the world. I think she should have said she feels that way regardless of whether it's out of religious conviction or just some ego-gone-wild thing, but she didn't. Maybe she was baiting you; maybe she wasn't. But she didn't cross the line, as far as what's okay to post and what's not. PS....I took the trouble to write this not because I want to take sides, but because I am a passionate defender of free speech. I never, ever want censorship to rear its ugly head, in this or any other open forum.

Didn't hold true in my family, but then we never were what you'd call "conformists". My great grandparents (not college educated) had 5 kids Their children (not college educated) had 5, 3, 0, 0 kids (No. 2 of these was my grandmother) My grandmother (not college educated) had 3 kids Of them, the oldest and the youngest (my mom) were college educated. They had 3 and 2 children, respectively. The sister who did not go to college had no children. My mom's sister had 3 children. Of them, 2 graduated from college. They had 3 children each. The remaining child did not attend college, and he has 2 children. My mom had 2 children. My brother did not finish college. He has 2 children. I graduated from college, and I have 4. My 4 children include 3 who have a college education and one who does not. The one who didn't go to college has 3 children, and the college crowd has 2, 2, and 3. One of them, however, intended to have more children, but his wife was diagnosed with cervical Cancer at 26 and had to have a hysterectomy. Looks like I'm more prolific than anyone else since my grandmother's generation. Or maybe I'm just sexier....LOL.

Two highway patrolmen stop a driver for speeding on the state highway in Waxahachie, TX. As they are writing up the ticket, one trooper turns to the other & asks, "How do you spell Waxahachie"? The other one replies, "I don't know." "What are we going to do"? the first one asks. "If we spell it wrong, the judge will dismiss the charge." "Well," says his partner, "why don't we just let him go & stop him again when he gets to Waco"?

This is completely true. However, there are other reasons, besides an exploding population, that our natural resources are dwindling. We are a culture of instant, convenient, everything. We love our plastic, and our "disposable" electronics. We love gas-guzzling SUVs and lawns that resemble golf courses and take tons of water to maintain. Most of all, we love air conditioning. Every summer we consume more coal and natural gas than mother nature can replace in thousands of years. Even with zero population growth, the world's resources cannot sustain a drain such as this for very long. Our decendents will, sooner or later, be living in the dark unless we (or they) find alternative fuel sources. Curbing the birth rate will not prevent an energy crisis....it will only postpone it.

I'm confused, too. The pro-quiver people have been referred to as both Liberals and Conservatives in this one thread. Everyone needs to line up and put on one of those little sticky labels so we will know who you are and what you stand for. Grab a handful...you might need more than one label. I'm a Christian, Democrat, Pro-Gay Rights, Feminist, Liberal. But I'm not a fundamentalist Christian - more mainstream. And I don't support the Democratic platform regarding abortion on demand (especially partial birth abortion). And I'm opposed to Affirmative Action. Oh, my....seems like I don't fit into any of those tidy little compartments.

Oh, they definitely are. They are also from a generation or two ago. I think the trend in general is to marry later and have fewer children - not just among the better educated. I read another interesting statistic the other day. Almost half the children born now are to unwed parents. The trend is also, evidently, to have children without benefit of matrimony. I don't think that's so good for the children. I believe that marriage brings a certain stability to a relationship, and kids really need that.

OJ Simpson's book, If I Did It (does anyone have a shred of doubt), will NOT be published, thanks to the huge public outcry against it. The problem now is what to do with the 400,000 copies already printed. Some have suggested turning the books into compost. Stuart Campbell, author of compost-advice book, [ame=http://www.amazon.com/Let-Rot-Composting-Down-Earth/dp/1580170234/sr=8-1/qid=1164751702/ref=sr_1_1/002-0831729-8976013?ie=UTF8&s=books]Let It Rot[/ame], offered this advice: "I would suggest, in all seriousness (sweet irony of the whole OJ scenario notwithstanding), the use of manure. If thoroughly mixed with the paper and given enough time, it should produce wonderful, odorless yet fertile mulch. Any and all kinds of animal manure (other than human) would work well. The 'hottest' manure, in terms of its ability to decompose adjacent materials quickly would be chicken shit." Now...wouldn't that be just perfect? From chicken shit to chicken shit in just a few easy steps.

I'm not sure I particularly like being referred to as a "breeder" just because I have given birth. Where I come from, you differentiate your "breeding" stock from your other animals. Although the ones selected for breeding are generally the cream of the crop, so maybe it's really an elitist distinction. I don't think that higher education=fewer children, therefore having fewer children means you're smarter than the average person. I have one degree and four children. After their father died, I married a man with two children, and he adopted my brood, making him the father of six. For several years, they ALL lived with us, too. When I went to buy tickets at the local skating rink I was often asked if we were a birthday party. "This is no party, lady", was generally my reply - especially if I had had a rough week. We got lots of attention because we had six kids. I can't imagine how many heads must turn when someone walks in with 12 or more. At restaurants...."Are these ALL yours?" My husband thought it was really cute to answer, "Well...she says they are," or "No, my brother helped out with those last two." Anything to break the monotony. Why would they ask us that? Does it make any sense to suppose that we gathered up half the neighborhood and took them out for spaghetti on a whim? We had three boys and three girls. I used to tell them to pretend they were the Brady Bunch. But we were missing one very important element: Alice. I wouldn't have minded nearly as much if we had had an Alice. We took all six kids to Six Flags one summer. After we lined them up on the steps of the Opera House, my DH left me to guard them while he purchased hot dogs for the group. A man tapped him on the shoulder from behind. "Excuse me," he said, "Is that your family over there?" gesturing in our direction. "Yes" admitted my husband, expecting yet another are-those-kids-all-yours question. "Well," said the man, "I notice you have six. I only have five," and he indicated another family group nearby. "I just want to make sure that you don't try to sneak any of yours off on me. I know how many I came with, and that's how many I want to leave with, okay?" True story, I swear. We laughed about that for years.

Stress makes my band tighter than a virgin on prom night. But it may not be so for everyone. Lots of people are stress eaters. I am, too but my band is not a stress swallower. I have a husband, a mother-in-law, a granddaughter, and one psycho dog, plus a daughter who, though she does not live with me, still drives me nuts because she has two children and not a brain in her head. I understand how you feel. Of course, I'm majorly co-dependent, too, so that might be part of the problem....LOL.

Were you born on the feast of St. Scholastica?

What constitutes "excessively", in your opinion? Robert and Ethel Kennedy were both college graduates. They had, I think, 13 children before he was assassinated.