Carlene

Silly Rabbit....the KKK is neither a culture nor a religion. It is just a club for weirdos....kind of like Rotarians gone wild. Seriously, though...I do not, of course, condone genocide anywhere, at any time, by anyone. I do not condone honor killings, either. But one can deplore those things from afar, without believing that it is up to us (the USA) to stop them. We cannot be all things to all people, nor should we try. If we have learned one thing from the current, ill-advised war in Iraq, that should certainly be it. The United Nations is where this (honor killings) should be addressed first, I believe. Sanctions should be placed on any country that does not police itself, with regard to civil rights violations. If they are receiving foreign aid, it should stop until the situation has been dealt with. The USA should never aid and abeit a government that will not protect the rights of half its population (meaning women). The KKK operates within our borders, so that's another matter.

I have to agree with you, Elizabeth. Add to that my respect for good old American commercialism. It's a business, folks, not a public service. Is it any different from the women-only gyms? For that matter, how about the DAR....they won't let me join because I don't have an ancestor who fought in the American Revolution. Ditto for the Daughters of the Confederacy and the Daughters of the Republic of Texas. My pedigree does not fit their membership criteria, so they are allowed to exclude me. How is E Harmony any different? I think we can carry civil rights, like everything else, to the extreme. And then we will find ourselves stepping on virtually everyone's toes.

I am not rationalizing anything. And properly referenced statistics, by the way, are a perfectly valid argument in any debate. Your arguments, however, always seem to be curiously lacking in that respect. You claim to enjoy debating on the forum, and that's peachy, but you don't get to define the rules. PS....I am not what is generally considered "pro-life". I do not support abortion on demand, but neither do I lobby against it, nor do I make political choices based on a candidates stand on that issue. I am a woman. I feel for my sisters who are faced with this decision, for it is only by the grace of God that I was never one of them. I am a mother. I feel for the babies whose lives are snuffed out for the sake of mere convenience. Moreover, I am the mother of an adopted child. I know firsthand that the fruits of an unplanned pregnancy can bring immeasurable joy to the life of another woman. I am a Christian, and I hold life sacred from the moment of conception. So you see, it's not as easy as you seem to think, to take a stand, to cast a vote, to make a choice. A little consideration, and a little less nastiness for the "other side" would be nice.

So you think those 11 people (and I was not one of them, by the way) gave no thought whatsoever to the possibility of whether there was any real and valid concern for the mother's life or not? In other words, you believe that if they were faced with a definite "either or" choice - the mother or the unborn, unviable, child, they would say "let them both die". Is that your position? Maybe we could hear from those 11 people, and what their mindset was when they voted. After all, only they know for sure.

Added here because the "Edit" function still does not work properly (DAMN,DAMN,DAMN).... The poll gives these choices: 1. For Pro Life 2. For Pro Choice 3. Pro Choice only for extreme cases (ie: mothers in danger of death) Voting for number 3 could just as easily mean, "I am pro-choice only when the mother's health is at risk, or the baby is apt to be born with severe birth defects." The "ie" means "an example of" (extreme cases). It does not limit the voter's reasons to "mothers in danger of death", but merely uses that as one criteria.

No one voted to "sacrifice the mother". That simply is not an issue in this day and age, in this country. I know a woman with one kidney who carried to term. It did not kill either her or the child. Planned Parenthood Federation of America released its 2004-2005 Annual Report on June 1, 2006 revealing a record income of $882 million and Planned Parenthood’s second-highest profit of $63 million. The organization also set a record number of abortions performed in one year - 255,015. How many of those do you seriously think were performed to save the mother's life? And by the way.....war is not very pro-life, either. Which do you think is a bigger threat to the life of a pregnant woman, being deployed to Iraq or giving birth?

My granddaughter has a friend who is undeniably Hispanic. All four of Veronika's grandparents were born and raised in Mexico, but she, unlike some of her cousins, has never been there. She speaks no Spanish, knows no Mexican history, and is not Catholic. Her family is not planning a big quinceanera party for her upcoming 15th birthday. Some of her cousins say she is not really Mexican. They call her a "poser Mexican", because she does not fit their image of a young Hispanic woman. I told her that was ridiculous. DNA does not lie, nor does history. And to argue otherwise is anti-intellectual, IMHO.

I have truly never heard of a case where a woman died because she refused an abortion. Could you reference one, please? Although abortion is a very safe procedure in the United States, the probability of complications and death increases with the length of gestation. For example, abortion at eight weeks or less of gestation has a fatality rate of 0.4 per 100,000 abortions. At 16 to 20 weeks, the fatality rate is nearly seven deaths per 100,000 abortions. Pregnancy, planned or not, carries a fatality rate of 11.8 per 100,000, so childbirth is ALWAYS going to be more dangerous. And legalized abortion has not lowered those stats, by the way, as it certainly should have if abortion were saving women's lives.

And who gets to say exactly what that entails.... to "fully follow and accept the teachings of Christ"? Let me guess.....the fundamentalist Christians, right? That's just sooooooo typical. Of course! We are both Christians, just as we are both humans. But we are not the same denomination. Just as humans may be black, white, etc. Their race may be different, but that doesn't make them less human. Your church members may call themselves Evangelical Christians, but that does not exclude other denominations from the brotherhood of Christianity. For one thing, it would be historically inaccurate, and for another, Christ would not approve. He said so in His book.

I'm the only person I know who has read it, too. I think it's only well known among Sci Fi fans, since they never made a movie out of it. They should have, though. "The Postman" wasn't nearly as good (IMHO) but it got the silver screen treatment anyway. Go figure.

I have a newsflash for you, G Lady.....if you weren't a Christian when you belonged to the Catholic Church, then you weren't a Catholic, either. And if you understand Catholicism "completely" then you surely know that we were the original Christians, and you know, too, that Christianity is our religion, just as Jesus' religion was Judaism. And within Christianity there are many denominations, none more "Christian" than the next.

BJ.... I so understand where you are coming from. The thing that tempers my stance on abortion is the same thing that makes me unwilling to support all-out American domination of the entire world's behavior: we are not God.....I am not God. I have a stepdaughter from a previous marriage who is just worthless. She broke her father's heart many times over before he died. She steals, lies, "borrows" money that she has no intention of ever repaying. She has been arrested numerous times, does drugs, and was very promiscuous starting at age 15 or so. To no one's surprise, she was also sexually irresponsible. Today she is sterile, thank God, due to a raging case of untreated PID. And along the way, she had at least 3 abortions. I did not know about them until after the fact, but even if Kathy had taken me into her confidence beforehand, I am not sure I would have discouraged her. It is a blessing that she never gave birth. Sometimes being born is not the best thing that can happen to a person, just as dying is not necessarily the worst. I don't know how many Jackie Kennedy fans might be on this thread, but when she was Jackie O, our very Catholic former First Lady arranged an abortion for her teenage stepdaughter.

Perhaps....but who gets to decide what's "right"? Us....because we're Americans? Because we're smarter....more modern....better educated? Who died and made us the boss? Consider this....conservative Muslims are as deeply offended by an unveiled woman as you would be by two gay men having sex on the courthouse lawn at high noon. They believe that by stoning a disobedient woman to death, they are promoting decency. And if you ask them, they would probably say we need to stone a few of our women and then maybe there wouldn't be so many of them polishing their crotches on poles in nudie bars across America. No matter how barbaric we may find the practice of honor killings, we are NOT the world's police force. That's my only point. I'm not trying to defend the practice - just saying that sticking our nose into everyone else's business will, sooner or later, result in a noseless America.

Just proves what I've always heard, Derick: men have a brain and a penis, but only enough blood to run one at a time. Great link, Edie. I spent hours looking inside other people's houses. The Chinese bathroom made me decide that I no longer wish to visit China.

No "Podkayne of Mars"?

Okay....color me confused. Having been both what? Both Jewish and Catholic? Both Atheist and Christian? Our friend Mr. Webster says this about Christianity: Christianity Pronunciation: "kris-chE-'a-n&-tE, "krish-, -'cha-n&-, "kris-tE-'a- Function: noun 1 : the religion derived from Jesus Christ , based on the Bible as sacred scripture, and professed by Eastern, Roman Catholic, and Protestant bodies 2 : conformity to the Christian religion 3 : the practice of Christianity History of Christianity Christianity is based upon the teachings of Jesus, a Jew who lived his life in the Roman province of Palestine. Roman communications networks enabled Christianity to spread quickly throughout the Roman empire and eventually to the rest of Europe, and finally the entire globe. As time progressed, Christianity divided into three major branches. The Roman Catholic branch of Christianity is the successor of the church established in Rome soon after Christ's death. It traces its spiritual history to the early disciples of Jesus. The Pope, or spiritual leader, traces his office's lineage back to St. Peter, the first Pope, one of Jesus' disciples. Roman Catholicism was originally predominately practiced in Ireland, Poland, France and Spain. During the fourth century, the Roman Catholic church split and the Eastern Orthodox branch was formed. The split was primarily a political one due to the division of the Roman Empire into western and eastern components. The two churches became officially separate in 1054. Orthodox churches are largely national, each associated with a particular country. Orthodoxy is common in Russia, Greece, Romania, Bulgaria, the Ukraine, and Armenia. The Protestant branch split from Roman Catholicism during the Reformation, a sixteenth and seventeenth century series of church reforms in doctrine and practice. This movement challenged the authority of the Pope, and became popular in Scandinavia, England, and the Netherlands. Protestantism eventually divided into many denominations which arose in response to disputes over doctrine, theology, or religious practice. Some of the large denominations today are Lutherans, Methodists and Baptists. References Shelley, Fred M. and Audrey E. Clarke, eds. Human and Cultural Geography. Dubuque, Iowa: Wm. C. Brown Publishers, 1994. Now for the part we agree on.....yes, there are deep doctrinal differences between Catholics and Evangelical Christians. But we are both Christians. Evangelical Christians are just another branch of the same tree....just like Lutherans (where they have their roots, incidentally), Methodists, and those good old hard shelled Southern Baptists, God bless their casserole-carrying souls.

It was the largest in state of New York, at the time. He describes himself as "an athiest Jew" until 1996. He "switched sides", so to speak, over 20 years before he converted. It was not my intention to convince you of anything. This was my first post on the thread, because, for one thing, I know how pointless it is to argue the whole issue. I was just trying to clarify the whole numbers thing. I am not, by the way, rabidly pro-life or pro-choice. I tend to be more pro-mind-my-own-business. Except for late term abortions. I do have issues with those....especially the so-called partial birth procedure. The doctor who can perform one of those and still sleep at night is one cold-blooded SOB, IMHO.

HUH?? Are you saying that Catholics aren't Christians? I beg to differ....and in this particular argument, history will bear me out. Unless, of course, you are inclined to argue with history.

I don't condemn the Muslim faith for this outrageous act, for Islam does not teach that people should stone their sisters to death. Instead, I blame the social structure that has, for thousands of years, allowed women to be treated as property. As for doing something about it, however, I doubt that will happen anytime soon. Just like female genital mutilation in Africa and the old custom of foot-binding in Asia, this is a cultural issue and input from Americans, or other nationalities, will not be appreciated.

PS to Derick.... "Stranger in a Strange Land" was probably the second or third SF book I ever read. I can't believe I had actually forgotten all about "the g word" until I saw your post!

LOL....thank you, Derick! I am humbled by the generosity of your words.

LOL....I think "The Grapes of Wrath" was banned by the Catholic Code of Decency, so of course, I read it as soon as I could...along with "Peyton Place" and a few others. I went thru my historic romance phase (Rosemary Rogers was my favorite) but never got "into" the likes of Jennifer Cruise, et al.

I have never read that Dr. Nathanson claimed he performed 75,000 abortions. His own words, in everything I have seen personally, say that he was responsible for 75,000 abortions, or that he presided over that many. I have always taken that to mean that he was the physician in charge when these procedures were performed. So, if there were a dozen - or even a half dozen - other doctors working under him, a figure of 75,000 over a 20 year career would be very realistic. Dr. Nathanson is a board certified obstetrician and gynecologist and also holds a master's degree in bioethics. He is not some nut case, just off the streets, who preaches not so much against abortion, but FOR his own personal belief system. Nathanson has converted to Catholicism (quite recently), but for the biggest part of his anti-abortion career, he was not affiliated with any church or particular dogma.

I read a lot of mysteries because my DH buys them and I'm cheap, so I hate to waste a book by only giving it one read. I just finished "The Husband" by Dean Koontz. It was excellent. I read a lot of Carl Hiaasen's stuff because DH has a friend who buys them all and gives them to us after he's read them. (Did I mention that I'm cheap?) I recently read the four book Berrybender series by Larry McMurtry. We saw "Lonesome Dove" on TV and that got me started. I buy a lot of books at Half Price Bookstore, and at thrift shops. I love biographies. I read one recently by Loretta Young and Clark Gable's love child called "Uncommon Knowledge". I didn't even know they HAD a love child until I picked this book up in the clearance section at HPB. I like Ken Follett (sometimes), and especially "Pillars of the Earth". For pop classics you might have missed along the way, I like Mary Karr ("The Liar's Club", "Cherry", etc) and Amy Tan ("The Joy Luck Club", "The Bonesetter's Daughter", "The Kitchen God's Wife", etc). I also love Isak Dinesen....especially "Out of Africa". I have been an incurable, voracious reader my entire life!

Derick.... I read "Farnhams Freehold" about a hundred years ago - and probably about that many times since. I absolutely LOVED it. My fave Sci Fi stories are the "end of the world" types anyway. Another great one is "Alas, Babylon". Heinlein rocks! I have read everything by Heinlein, I think. I also loved the Dune trilogy. The movie sucked,however. I was the only girl in my high school Sci Fi club. Everyone thought I joined because of all the boys. They were wrong. I love science fiction!