Jack

There seems to be considerable range of what we expect as well as what we observe. I was perhaps fortunate, in that my own 'first fill' was six full months postOp. It was during that time I learned the most about eating, overeating, being hungry, being full, and being at that blissful state of 'not hungry-not full-just right'. It was also the period of my greatest weight loss. Ever concept I had of 'feeling full' somehow the gold standard of whether I needed to eat was changed. At long last, after the initial 3-weeks fluids/3 weeks mushies, and then into the real solid food, I began eating more or less 'normally'. That was my first experience with the symptom of becoming hungry, then eating, finding that hunger sated, and then stopping when no longer hungry. Full had nothing to do with it. And the first time I got truly 'stuck'.....was with dry triscuits (about 3 of them) and the sensation I was going to die over a period of increasing discomfort for several hours. I put in emergency call to the surgeon's office, expecting to be directed to the local ER. Instead, one of the front office girls had the Band installed about 3 months prior to mine. She guided me through and I recovered, although I still 6 years later do not eat triscuits. We can learn a lot from our collective experiences, without expecting them to all be identical. And I believe not one story I've read here in the past 6 years exactly mirrors any one else. There are a lot of similarities though. We can let the experience of others be a GUIDE, nothing more.

re: "Could it be the shape/size/?? of the stomach? Why do some people require such high volume in cc's to get restriction, while others are on the lower spectrum? ETC. ETC. " good question..... I haven't seen anything that supports that idea regarding the physical footprint of the stomach. What I have read focuses on the actual pouch/resulting opening size....which is directly related to size of the Band. The Band comes in a variety of models with different volume capacities. My own Band is from 2004 and is the then-common 4cc total volume size. Newer models are 10-14 cc volume. That difference accounts for some of the difference we see people reporting. There are nuances resulting from that as well. In my Band, as little as .1cc fill makes a tremendous difference in how constricted my pouch is, while the larger Bands may require 2cc or more for similar results. With smaller variation possible, there is smaller 'window of control' and more crucial attention to signs of 'too full'/'not full enough'. An unexplained observation I've had, is the fact there IS periodic fluctuation of 'fickleness' in what the Band tolerates. I have been unable to tie it to anything including phase of the moon. Sometimes I am subjectively tighter and sometimes looser. I've learned to adapt to that accordingly.

Bloating and flatulence is often caused by high sugar/high processed carbohydrate intake. "Fermentation in the bowel" is how the old natural practitioners labeled it. And high pH level in the stomach slowed the digestion of Protein, which resulted in putrifaction and more gas. Depending on how packed our lower GI tract is, will affect how long it takes to eliminate. Some people respond well to a short course of colonic irrigation. There is an absolute ton of reading material available to help guide you. Naturopaths typically have a lot to offer in such complaints.

whenever *I* get way stressed over what to do, I dig out my old shorts from the day I went to surgery.....Size 56/58 compared to the blue ones prove something is going right

The notion of 'sweet spot' is a convenience in describing subtle changes than a Bandster experiences in progression from being Morbidly Obese to being whatever their new body. A patient with a set of given objective physical findings, will be described differently and treated considerably differently depending on what specialty the treating physician practices. As example, a low back patient faces considerably different therapeutic options if the provider is an Orthopedist or a Neurologist, and just what their own model of restorative treatment might include. While the goal may be the same---no pain and normal functional capacity--how they get to that point is often subject to considerably different protocols. Those afflicted with Morbid Obesity have a wide variety of issues which complicates successful treatment. Some Bandsters require definition of specifics, whether those models are anatomically correct or not. A behaviorist will describe the eating behavior of Normos which is considerably different from the Morbidly Obese. The changes in eating behavior demonstrate what can reasonably called a 'sweet spot'. The Band structurally causes mechanical changes in an often psychologically obsessed individual who typically has emotional as well as biochemical anomalies which are part of the complexities associated with being Morbidly Obese. Those fascinated with the silicon and saline dynamics can describe all phases of the Band in considerable detail entirely independent of the actual effects on the Band patient. In the rich and incredibly interrelated environment including psychodynamics, changing bodily habitus, decades-long eating habits, obscure blood and hormonal influences, as well as the need to discover let alone learn to manage a whole new survival skill of not just of eating when hungry, but recognizing AND stopping when NOT hungry, the use of a handy term that identifies SUCCESS, then "sweet spot" works well for most.

For me a lot of that 'hunger' between meals really proved to be very relieved by drinking my water. Even now 6+ years postOp the decrease in 'hunger satisfying behavior' is surprising....just by drinking water (8 oz at a time works for me). Several times a day is a good habit. And no Bandster has ever died of 'hunger'....so don't be afraid of it. Much of my own preOp overeating was based on the anxiety of 'becoming hungry' rather than 'being' hungry.

Ah yes, the old Belly Beasts calling in the middle of the night!!! They used to be with me every waking second whether eating or not. I did find before learning that subtle duet of hunger/satiety, anxiety/fear of becoming hungry rather than actually 'being' hungry, that I ate and overate by habit. Also a triggering fuel was anything with corn syrup in it, and even just plain corn tortillas, would create a flame I could not extinguish by eating. I discovered the 'non-sweetened frozen yogurt' I was inhaling in ever larger amounts, had some additives not listed as 'sweeteners' yet they created a monster appetite. Are you/were you diabetic? Careful attention to high glycemic foods will prod that Belly Beast into a furor without you realizing what's happening. There are ways to evaluate what types of food you are eating. Do you have a local nutritionist/counselor you can consult? Don't panic, but it is time to start rowing toward the beach. That old boat load of eating behaviors needs to be carefully overhauled it sounds like. Are you keeping a food journal of any kind? What is your hard protein intake etc? Get it down on paper and start reviewing the weak points and you can find where to apply your efforts most effectively. Getting out of control too far means bailing harder for a bit. It happens to all of us, as far as I know. Whether it is a day or 2 or a week or 2 the longer we let it run without trimming our sails and applying helm control the greater the urgency. So speak up, let's get this ship back into calmer waters!!!!

re: "Just look for a cessation of hunger after a reasonable meal (3 oz protein, 1/2-1 cup vegies) for about 4 hours. *That* is the sweet spot" You've identified a Most Important discovery that We of the TOTMO clan must understand. That 'lack of hunger' must be identified and our old compulsive habits better have something else to occupy that time or we remain too vulnerable to converting that previously unknown sensation ("non hunger") into another kind of eating frenzy.

re: "Worse yet, some of my old bad habits have returned. " could you elaborate on what some of those might be? and how did you manage them before? We all need new ideas once in a while.

I'd have to see the actual description clinical successes demonstating 1) RNY can be reversed adequately; 2) Band surgeon would be able/willing to make such conversion. If someone has active link please post.

Loss of electrolytes and trace mineral balance are an issue that suffer in many malabsorbtion scenarios

I went through phases. For a long time I couldn't eat ground meat. And I still can't eat reheated micro meat unless there is a very limited reheat and there is something to help lubricated it going down. Popcorn is no problem but I don't care for it very often these days. Salads were tough for a while about the first year or so, now most are fine. I still chew very carefully and often end with a plate full of little gritty things I once would have just swallowed. While I can eat pizza, it too is a 'not often' and I much prefer the ultra thin crust rather than the old bready style. And bread....my one biggest preOp perennial favorite....I'd often have to get 2 loaves of fresh specialty bread to insure ONE would get home....now I can take it or leave it. Yes I can eat it, but not the wadded up dough ball style. I like a thin crispy toasted -yes with butter please-and a regular loaf might last a couple weeks. It is just the past year I got to where I can actually eat (usually) a whole 2-slice sandwich....and that takes cutting in 4 pieces, going slowly and having various helpers such as lofat mayo or some kind of dressing. Don't care for Pasta but so what, it ain're really a food by itself. Whatever the stuff that goes with it, can be eaten by itself, and is more enjoyable. There isn't any food group that I can't eat....it's more a matter of how much of it and how often. I believe the 'permanent restriction' applies only to various phases I've gone through. But carefully heed WHICH phase you are in. Do NOT rush your recovery. And some old favorites just won't be that desireable.

Great you are researching the choices and making serious study of what may be best for you. I was member of several live support groups early in my Banding Life. In those days they were all RNY patients. While of good intention, I found them ill informed and highly opinionated with grossly distorted beliefs based on no actual statistical information. No the Band doesn't work for everybody. Whatever the complication rate may be, a careful search by YOU should answer whatever questions you need to resolve in your decision making process. Asking the RNY crowd about the Band is of very limited value. Here's why I chose the Band: Adjustable Repairable Removable Replaceable After 6+ years, only the 'adjustable' feature has been required in tending to my needs. Cheers in your journey....keep researching until you have your answer.

re: the point of fills? We have to wonder what the goal is, of what we are doing...both by eating and by getting fills. And finally, recognize what constitutes overeating regardless of our fill level. First, if we are aware of eating when NOT hungry, there's a sign. Second, sometimes it is easier than other times to eat certain items. That doesn't mean we have a hall pass to over eat. Third, IMO the perfect amount of fill, is where I can eat a Normo amount, not be hungry, and bring myself to stop eating. That takes some practice to develop a New Healthy habit replacing the old overeating habit. Yes, a few times I have felt for a few days, able to eat a bit more than I was. Usually by about day 3 I'd be suddenly surprised that now I wasn't hungry and confronted with the question of 'why am I eating'. We have to learn new eating behavior along with the Band.

It is disappointing to have less that sterling response to a device that generates such high hopes initially. On the other hand, I studied at length the accumulated statistics relating to the hazards of ME remaining Morbidly Obese. Given all the anxiety and all the potential grief I had read about prior to my own surgery, for once in my life I actually choose *with* the odds instead of putting my hopes on the green 00 at the roulette wheel. Even on my worst postOp day I'm ahead of the best preOp day in the decade preceding that surgery. In my first 18 months or so postOp I too had difficulty getting hard Protein down. Fortunately I was able to devise a process that did work. I don't know what I would have done had that failed. Even today 6+ years postOp, and as a STILL Happy Bandster, there is unpredictable fickleness regarding PB episodes. I can make them worse, and can predictably cause a series of such events, by making certain eating errors repeatedly over a few days. If those were random events it would be reason to consider other options, as dealing with them can be aggravating. Each though, can be directly linked to a fundamental error I make in one of the basics. Most often that error has something to do with eating too fast or not chewing enough. The other day I had a small piece of pizza. I was so hungry without being able to stop myself, I swallowed too big a piece of cheese. As it went down, I knew what was to follow. I slowly ate 2 or 3 more bites, chewed well but had to leave the restaurant. Yes, it took a couple hours of unpleasant gagging, PBing and upchucking what seemed like far more than I had eaten. Yes it did pass. Yes it was a PIA. It also pointed out to me I was treading into the semi-forbidden zone, as pizza really isn't on my A list of most beneficial food choices. I think the notion of hard Bandster LAWS chiseled into stone is inaccurate. There are general guidelines that serves most Bandster pretty well. Beyond that, individual variations require we remain alert and seek what works best for each of us, IMHO. Frankly, without the Band I believe at this very moment I'd be dead or blind due to my multiple co-morbidity factors preOp. A little PBing now & then are pretty trivial in my life. YMMV.

chenafi: Welcome to LBT, there's a ton of experiences you can find helpful here. Plenty of reading and most Bandsters will be happy to respond to specific questions. Gathering information helps us all make better decisions. cheers on your journey

I've seen reports from Bandsters in Africa, the mid East, around the world in fact. They all find ways to accommodate their band. The biggest adjustment is getting our HEAD right. That takes some effort, which is fine, because then getting the Belly Beasts in line requires full attention for a while.

That anxiety peaked in me about 1-2 weeks post op.....had the avatar of Homer burying his face in his palms.....the "what ifs" got me for a couple days. The GOOD news is....each day gets better and better. We are fully capable of finding new ways to convert social meal time to an event that DOESN'T mean an excuse to show how much we can eat!!!! And we all eventually find that being the largest person in the room will mean new ways to act and treat ourselves. It all comes a day at a time. cheers in your journey

"more sensitive to certain carbs than others"; this is a good point.... I can tell a critical threshold on my own carb intake, that most assuredly will increase my craving to eat more. Non soluble Fiber (the Holy Shredded Wheat) is essential for me, both for colon motility as well as the 'satiety switch' whatever that may really be. If I eat such as granola or rice Cereal, my desire to eat more increases. If I eat corn flakes I can guarantee myself at least 3-4 days of that hollow ain't=been=fed=enough sensation. Probably not rising to the status of 'allergy' I believe some carbs are triggering a cascade of anomalous physiologic responses in some people. Having survived 15 years injecting insulin twice a day preOp, direct observation of blood sugar levels and the endless cycle of eating ever more despite having eaten ever more, led in part to my own Morbid Obesity. How we handle our individual circumstances requires a lot of attention, research, and willingness to continue searching for an answer for ourselves. cheers to you ElfiePoo on your coming surgery.

sorry to hear of the distress in the above posts. Early on I was advised that "No Bandster has ever died of hunger". PreBand I would awake with a drive (not 'hunger) but a definite sensation that meant eat! And I somehow became unaware of the difference between 'full' and 'enough'. I focused on eating until it was gone, or until I had eaten some of everything within reach, then collapse in self embarrassed dejection as the factorial !EAT had again overtaken my life. What my Band gave me, was the wonderous sensation not of 'full' but of, finally, 'NOT hungry'. It was a quiet discovery I could well have missed on my way to another bag-o-burgers for a snack before another meal to be gulped down while fantasizing about what I could eat next while planning my next eating episode after that. And so forth. Having been slowed down enough by the Band to become temporarily unable to tamp more down with my eating shovel, I gradually discovered what that little voice was; it was one I had not heard in so long I didn't recognize it. I believe it plays an important role every day in my life. That little voice brought me out of the trance, the hallucination, that all my sensory taste demands had to be met, and at once, in ample and ever increasing amounts. I have no answer for those who suffer without some benefit of the Band process. I could well have been one in such a circumstance. If there is any encouragement or help possible from mere words, I would deliver them at once. I had to abandon some of my former notions about many aspects of my own life. The errors I made in thought and behavior required changing. Seeking behavior that produces the desired results is a delightful journey. Hunger is not what must drive our behavior to succeed.

On the other side of clothing size changes......just how long did it take to *go*UP*** a size or two? A few weeks is pretty short time to be concerned of size changes.

kb: re :"t I have learned something....Hunger is my trigger. And for me, and I suspect a lot of people like me, that trigger needs to be completely decommissioned in order to have any sane/healthy relationship with food" appreciate your comment and respect your wonderful results. For me the essence seems to be not just 'hunger' as I finally have found what I regard as a Normo Hunger response mechanism. What took so much effort was finding that I actually *CAN* eat a Normo amount and be satisfied and without hunger thereafter. That is an entirely new experience. I had never had the hunger-->eat-->no hunger-->stop eating Revelation [one hand smacking forehead] :woot: :woot: :woot: for all of us!!!!

nicely done!!

re: 'I can still eat an entire bag of doritos or chips, they just melt in my mouth. I could also eat an entire box of cookies or cake, the sweets and salts still just slip down and always will I suppose so thats my weekness, it was the problem before the band and is still my problem. I still need to fix my head,' excellent observation....I spent plenty of time and toil there in that place of consternation and self doubt. What made a MASSIVE difference in my own eating behavior, was coming to recognize while I *could* eat doritos/etc they simply were not satisfying ANY of the basic drives for why one actually DOES eat anything. They are neither satisfying of hunger nor particularly any kind of taste sensation. Much like anything boring and of no stimulation on any plane, other than "sport eating" for the mere purpose of chewing and swallowing. So why do it. I decided to spend my time and attention finding something I *preferred* to eat due to something delightful or satisfying about it, no matter what effort it took to prepare or to purchase. Why do we eat? Why do normos eat? Why do those of the Tribe of the Morbidly Obese continue to eat regardless of whether hunger is involved? It is an essential to find an answer before we can escape that dungeon of dorito delusion that has imprisoned so many of us for so long.

re: "the weight gain is due to eating the wrong foods"; <br />disagree.....consider it's due to OVER eating the wrong AMOUNT of food.... re: 'ovulation'.....can't speak to this as my ovaries have been inactive for quite some time... The 'sweet spot' does exist IMHO, and requires awareness of the nuances to manage satisfactorily. I found if I make sure most of my weeks total meals fall below a certain calorie count, I have no weight gain concern. And if I do eat over that point for a few days, I begin to feel like the old habit of eating more than my body needs begins to stir again. I do have some kind of long and subtle cycle of slightly more and then slightly less restricted. Sometimes my Band seems even a bit fickle. Life with my Symbiant, my 'Little Angel of the Silicon Fist' is far better regardless of the occasional frustrations. Finding a way to coexist requires adaptability. cheers on your journey