Jack

I propose we add a further descriptive nuance to Wheetsin's post: IMHO a "yak" is considerably more effort in hurling out the offending mess; it is more that a 'mere PB/sliming' type event, but may contain some of the PB elements. And those little dogs/franks/polish sausages.....somehow they manage to slip past my carefully honed cat like reflexes and turn a delightful lunch into a horrid 20-40 minutes of "full scale PB/yak attack" Careful recent field research on this very matter has clearly demonstrated a Class One Eating Error: failure to chew thoroughly and swallowing too soon. Caught again!....but I have repented and managed to recover quickly. I just don't need those things in my meal plan I guess. *sigh*

Re: "vomit" "throwing up" "sliming" and "PB" Bandsters have evolved some terms descriptive of their particular situation. In general, "vomit" and "throwing up" are inaccurate to describe what happens when we eat too much/too fast/too dry/too fibrous without proper consideration to such factors as amount, type of food, how well we chew, etc. "Vomit/throwing up" is not accurate, as those terms involve gastric juices and at least partial digestion within the stomach. Usually the type of smelly clumpy liquid such as after drinking too much alcohol or some kind of food poisoning. I've seen relatively few reports of actual stomach content being 'thrown up' in postOp Bandsters. Feelings of nausea etc continue after the fact depending on what the actual cause of the event may have been. Various illnesses can be responsible as well. This is the very kind of event that non-Bandsters experience. The "sliming" or "PB--productive burping" whatever we may call it, results from whatever we eat not fitting thru the pouch and we in effect regurgitate it from above the Band area. There is remarkably little digestive juices present at this point, as those reside in the lower stomach area and are not in contact until after the bolus passes thru the Band into the actual stomach. This is a Bandster Event. Heavy mucous/slime is most often a component and repeated spitting can and does occur. The bolus of food is rejected and returned to the world and the Bandster can return to their activities. Nausea and other symptoms pass with the objectionable material being expulsed. This is not an illness per se, rather of symptom most often of an Error of Eating. Time and experience will teach the Bandster how to mostly avoid such event in the first place. "Sliming-PBing" is different than the type of foul tasting bile type regurgitation one might get when laying in bed. Hope this helps identify some of what recent Bandsters may find confusion.

Re: "vomit" "throwing up" "sliming" and "PB" Bandsters have evolved some terms descriptive of their particular situation. In general, "vomit" and "throwing up" are inaccurate to describe what happens when we eat too much/too fast/too dry/too fibrous without proper consideration to such factors as amount, type of food, how well we chew, etc. "Vomit/throwing up" is not accurate, as those terms involve gastric juices and at lease partial digestion within the stomach. Usually the type of smelly clumpy liquid such as after drinking too much alcohol or some kind of food poisoning. I've seen relatively few reports of actual stomach content being 'thrown up' in postOp Bandsters. Feelings of nausea etc continue after the fact depending on what the actual cause of the event may have been. Various illnesses can be responsible as well. This is the very kind of event that non-Bandsters experience. The "sliming" or "PB--productive burping" whatever we may call it, results from whatever we eat not fitting thru the pouch and we in effect regurgitate it from above the Band area. There is remarkably little digestive juices present at this point, as those reside in the lower stomach area and are not in contact until after the bolus passes thru the Band into the actual stomach. Heavy mucous/slime is most often a component and repeated spitting can and does occur. The bolus of food is rejected and returned to the world and the Bandster can return to their activities. Nausea and other symptoms pass with the objectionable material being expulsed. This is not an illness per se, rather of symptom most often of an Error of Eating. Time and experience will teach the Bandster how to mostly avoid such event in the first place. "Sliming-PBing" is different than the type of foul tasting bile type regurgitation one might get when laying in bed. Hope this helps identify some of what recent Bandsters may find confusion.

Great well balanced summary by Wheetsin!!! We can all find excuse/reason to justify whatever decision we think we made rationally. And like Vegas, what ever game you play you do not have certainty of what the result will be. The best we can do regardless of our own misgivings, is to DO SOMETHING that benefits us in the middle and longer term. Personally I was terrified at ANY of the choices then available in 2004 for my own situation. Given the results today ("still 30# from goal") there is no question my health has been HUGELY improved by what I did. I truly believe the Band saved my life! Perhaps any other WLS would also have accomplished that too. In any event, Morbid Obesity was killing me. The only question was whether I would have stroked out, gone blind or died of cardiac arrest first. The worst day postOp for me has been better than the best preOp day of the preceding 10 years. Continue your research and get all the answers you need. Do what it takes to become not Morbidly Obese and the 'house odds' are much in your favor that your life will be far better in many ways. cheers on your journey

Never heard of "10 minutes" before. I believe the point, is to learn how to replace the typical "gulp and wash down with caloric liquids" method many of us used preOp. Early in my postOp solids phase, I ~did~ have to literally NIBBLE a soda cracker slowly, which might take 5-10 minutes to insure I got it all nibbled small enough to not cause a problem. And I ~did~ use the 'fork down between bites' method for several months, as I had to literally teach myself NOT to GULP! Slow chewing began with the exercise of 'nibbling' for me, first with saltines and later with other solids. I couldn't stand burger meat for nearly 2 years, as it was so coarse and I couldn't reduce much of it even with the nibble method. A standard pattie would end up producing nearly a golf-ball sized mass I'd spit back out of my mouth as being too hazardous to risk swallowing. We all have ways to adapt to our new life, and none I've ever hear about on LBT is any more odd than what many of us did preOp.

Entering the fat burning phase body slips into 'ketosis' which commonly leaves foul breath. I regarded my own phase with joy despite the odor.....it accompanied the most rapid weight loss I had experienced. Typically ketosis is a temporary intermediate phase that may last from a few days to a few weeks. If caloric intake remains less than metabolic needs, the shift to mobilizing the stored cheese burgers around our bellies into a more readily available form of energy....from fat/glycogen into glucose. Those on true fasts of a week or more will note a heavy whitish tongue coating along with 'dragon breath'. Later in the fast, both will clear and the tongue becomes pink and sweet again. LOTS of Water during this phase is important!

compare your preOp clothes with your postOp togs....and realize you CAN do whatever you choose!!!

I see of course I left out an entire series of comments regarding the 'knot hole' model. A limited amount of food, no longer washed down by gulping unchewed food and large amounts of fluids, into the folds and hidden warehouse complex of my bowels, now has time to affect the blood sugar as measured by the ventromedial hypothalamus...a form of "appestat" or rpm-governor --which throttles down the eating drive. I personally preOp was unable to conjure up memory of being "satiated" in the sense "I was not hungry" rather than "I am too full to eat more". The full/not hungry and not full/hungry model was how I grew up....and of course dysfunctional. Normos eat when hungry, then stop. We of the Tribe of the Morbidly Obese, eat whether hungry or not, then eat some more. Whatever the drive, which has as many varieties of potential explanation as any other aspect of Bandster Life, must be changed.

Great thread here Bandsters! I know the 'just a taste' NOW is a far better (ie healthier) choice than ever preOp. I _can_ take just a taste which satisfies that curiosity.... It took a lot of work to recognize for ME that difference was to assign "hungry" and "not hungry" eating modes to my food behavior. Now it's almost a habit (FINALLY!!!) to have the little belly beasts no longer in conflict with my Brain controlling what my mouth does. re: "we do that not because we are physically hungry, but because of the "head hunger" that so many of us experience. And, simply because it gives us physical pleasure to eat good tasting food." Agree, and add that much of that 'head hunger' is some form of psychoemotional need long unmet. Non-physiological hunger can not be satisfied by physical food. I don't consider that quite the same as 'head hunger' yet certainly as powerful a drive as any other of which we must find ways to establish control. re "MOST of the problem lies in the fact that we simply eat too much of the wrong food. And, of course, we don't exercise our bodies nearly enough." For sure. And it's far too easy to increase the desirability of SportEating by applying sauces and goo to enhance the taste buds in the absence of actual hunger. Re: "The fundamental mechanism of the Lap Band is to restrict our consumption of food. Plain and Simple. If you eat too much, you're gonna suffer. If you don't chew properly, it's gonna hurt. It's a valve. It's a Spigot. It's a throttle whose job it is to keep you from eating TOO MUCH (note to those engineer-types out there: I know it's not technically a"valve"…it doesn't open/close. I know…but you get my point…lol)." agree/ I view the Band as an artificial knot hole. We fling food against the fence and some goes in while some doesn't make it thru. Whatever hormonal mechanisms yet not clearly defined affecting the hunger drive, some people seem to respond to the mechanic model of 'full tank-empty tank' sensors in the upper stomach area. In the investigation phase of my own decision making process, I talked personally with one of the surgeons at OHMSU Portland about his observations. He was at that time (2003-4) researching surgical variations to the then-standard RNY. His team had seen a then-inexplainable phenomena, where a willing research patient, would undergo what appeared to be the then new laproscopic Lap Band procedure. Unknown to a considerable portion, no Band was installed, rather he said the external aspect of the stomach itself would simply be stroked a number of times via surgeon's gloved fingers, from lower to upper esophageal area. Nearly ALL of those patients would report vastly decreased hunger and lose weight dramatically. I don't know what the extended follow up might have showed....but I believe this particular project was instrument in locating and identifying ghrelin and another unknown hormone, of which I have forgotten the name. In any case, the appears to be multiple models regarding the 'why' we become obese, along with multiple theories explaining why the Band works well for some and not for others.

Agree on the notion of "feeling deprived". In finding what triggers my own binges, preOp I had learned to ignore the subtle hints that little 'innocent' tastes and 'satisfying a craving' produced. For my own physiology, certain triggering substances --much as any other addictive substance-- would create an excuse to indulge in 'a little more'. That bit of whipped cream (a REASONABLE amount) would lead to a predictable rise in binge eating. One of the surprises was, that if I avoided whatever launched me into such binges, I could far easier monitor and regulate my eating behavior. A bit of steak/seafood plain, no binge. Add a little commercial sauce that contained high fructose corn syrup, brown sugar etc, would leave me vulnerable to all forms of further overeating madness. I don't regard not eating that kind of stuff as depriving me of anything. In high school, I was one of those that could never stand to eat breakfast. By 10AM of course, I was plenty ready to eat. And pastries were readily available. I didn't even like donuts....but on eating one, I would have to slam down about a 1/2 dozen in a frenzy, despite "knowing better". So absent the drive to consume such, it takes little to avoid that complication. And I slowly came to recognize, that the very foods that 'needed' such slathering of extra goo on it, I didn't really care for in the first place. Finding a balance with all that sudden insight too a long time and a lot of work. For those with body dysfunction such as mine, you probably will recognize the affliction.

There's a lot of stories each Bandster can discuss, revealing yet another side of our issues with food. Habit and emotion, obsession and compulsion, etc etc plagued me for decades despite periodic forays into rational eating. My own Band, "my little Angel of the Silicon Fist", my Symbiant, has given me opportunity to develop a whole new theory and practice of eating. It has allowed me to more effectively eat Normo meals for Normo reasons. It has demonstrated time and again the advantages of eating when hungry, then stopping. It has markedly decreased the episodes of or even interest in the plague of Body and Spirit, of Overeating as a response to nearly any other event in my life. It has introduced the advantages of appreciating the wonders of 'becoming hungry'. PreOp I had trained for decades to avoid any suggestion or hint of 'hunger' as excuse to seek solstice in another Bag-o-burgers or loaf of bread. PreOp I had numerous coMorbid conditions, and was going blind. Literally. PostOp I am off insulin shots after 15 years, and off CPAP after 10. I found it effect to identify my own Overeating Habit as being a "behavioral" issue that I could find a way to control. "Your mileage may vary"

The only FF places I've been in the last 7 years is the chili/bean places listed above. Safeway deli has lots of choices in a sliced turkey & lots of other stuff I can enjoy without bread/sauces/. Trying to eat on the run still is a potential hazard to avoid. Sometimes a small soup is nice, but I haven't seen the nutritional chart on them lately.

we all have things we like to eat.....whipped cream on jello hasn't appealed to me. To suggest adding unneeded fat combined with a bunch of other non essentials in the service of adding more calories didn't seem to be the route that worked for me.... As a recovering diabetic I've had to simplify my own intake to avoid a lot of pseudo food sources that helped lead me into near catastrophe. And the route that worked better in my case was to not follow cravings for a lot of things. Different strokes, etc. If it works for you great.

re: "You could even put some whip cream on your jello." why? calories in during this early postOp phase is not as important as remaining hydrated. Learning how to live with a simplified palette comes in very handy as times goes on in the phases of Bandster Life.

My own episodes of binge eating have been severely decreased by a couple of tactics I had to invent, because I was a prime example of the flaws in the theory of "Temptation Resisted Increased Strength of Character" etc. 1) striving to recognize the difference between HUNGER and mere appetite ("desire to eat something more); 2) actually eating my meals regularly with sufficient hard Protein (3-4 oz) makes a huge difference in postprandial appetite; 3) observation my own obsessive/compulsive fantasies could not be best served by allowing conflicting drives and bosses to control my behavior...as in, either my brain is in charge of what I eat, or my belly is. And leaving the belly to be in charge is what got me to being Morbidly Obese. cheers in our journeys, fellow Bandsters! Courage! Action! Now!!!!

One of my favorites was a simple poached egg. There's a variety of seasonings if you need any, that will give an astonishing variety to the simple poached egg. I developed a taste for the microed egg with a splash of vinegar in the water cup. There's some mid-eastern herbs that add a world of flavor with 0 calories. Later phase, tiniest kernel of butter and I was pretty much satisfied for hours. Low fat elk sausage, just a 1/2 oz chopped up fine with an egg poured in to the 4" cast iron skillet, slow cooked, turned out on a plate with a few drops of tobasco.....yi!! great for the morning labors. probably not for those recently on solid foods though.

Sounds like you have an idea of the cause of your issue. The balance does continue between food IN/energy OUT. That 'tips the scales' more than any of us want to admit.

HungryBetty: This can be the most exciting, educational and important phase of your postOp experience. Don't forsake your long term goals for short sighted mistakes that solve no problems and change none of the issues important for successful postOp life style. If this were a broken leg, would you be trying to walk on it already? Don't jamb up the system by inventing new mistakes in eating behavior based on erroneous concepts. Take time to learn the steps you need to follow to achieve your goal. Consult your surgeon or nutritionist at once to go over the exact program they want you to follow. Ask them for explanation and the answers to the questions you propose here.

re: "REAL HUNGER PAINS!" how are these different from "imaginary hunger pains"? No Bandster has ever died from 'hunger pains'. These typically decrease markedly after the first 2 or 3 weeks. Your belly is used to being stretched out maximum full. Now the mechanoreceptors in the stomach wall don't know what to do. This will get better. At least mine did. re: "feeling port" At first I could only feel a lump by directly palpating into the incision region. As I lost layers of fat, like a snow drift melting away, gradually my port became more obvious. And there is considerable variation in how and where the ports are located. Ask your doc the next visit you make to his office. cheers in your journey

Actual physical pain that doesn't fade away rapidly is indicator your doc should be contacted. There is a host of possibilities that can not be determined without face to face exam by your doctor. May be something, may be nothing. Go find out and let us know.

Water to the body is like oil to the engine. Especially when our metabolism shifts into a "fat burn" phase. Conversion of stored glycogen in the fat cells of all those old extra cheese burgers and brownies around our waists...requires processing with extra H20 for the process to proceed. Also, the changes in our digestive tract are much supported with adequate WATER...not other forms of liquid which all require some form of physiological conversion from whatever it is, to just water. The detoxification process and the increased demands on gall bladder producing bile which is essential in fat conversion to energy, requires water. Later phases of normo life will require adequate water. Not so much as during active reduction from Morbid Obesity though. Often even now 6.5 years postOp, I find when I think I'm hungry, it really is "thirst" that is the signal. Drink plenty of water to help your system function properly.

Usually within 10-14 days gut sounds decrease in volume from 'alarming' to 'muted'. Don't confuse a little belly barking with worrisome clinical issues. And the noisy stomach does NOT mean you are hungry necessarily. If there is actual PAIN consult your doctor. Otherwise, enjoy the symphony. It's temporary.

Typically Bandsters get 'odd' sensations from the BIG changes in their digestive plumbing as well as the alteration in the mechanical action by the stomach now unencumbered by being over fed too much of the time. And there will be actual bowel gas changes as other digestive processes begin to alter from what was their 'normal cycle' for so long. Keep reading. Stay hydrated. Unless there is actual physical PAIN there isn't much to worry about. Start a journal. Tape measure yourself and get photographs you can compare months from now. It takes a while to learn that not all stomach/bowel sensations mean it's time to eat. cheers on your journey

It seems to me part of our confusion about "eating" and "a meal" etc is related to old concepts of "full" and "why do we eat". I was raised in the school of thought that one had to eat "until FULL" and that it all had to be eaten regardless of what it was. Strict application of depression era poverty induced economic necessity. With little thought to the consequences, my own habits over the next 20 years nearly always included "eating till FULL" which is an ever increasing goal...as we train to stuff more down, we become capable to eating more without observing or being aware of those physiologic hints that "we are no longer hungry". It was graduate school where I actually had to study the term "satiety". There is far more to it than the simplistic dictionary word game. "Sweet spot" is a vaguely defined term, I have taken to mean "able to eat normo sized meals and remain sated for a normo amount of time without need to attempt to make myself 'full'". Normo snacking is not the same as normo meals. I believe the notion 'sweet spot' is mistaken for the notion that one can expect to NOT be hungry-ever. The nature of acquiring the appreciation of the role such complicated concepts as "appetite" and "becoming hungry" are overlooked and ignored. Carrying some binkie at all times to suckle fluids or compulsively seek out the latest version of approved granola bar is not indication of 'sweet spot' IMHO. Observe how your normo sized friends eat, how they respond to becoming hungry, and most importantly, how they respond to becoming NOT hungry. The survey I did of a couple dozen normo friends, was they don't use the word "full" as often as they use the word "not hungry anymore" so they stop eating. For me, THAT is the 'sweet spot'. Not spending most of the day yearning for food, or beating ourselves for what we've eaten, is the 'sweet spot'. What is the difference between your new car, all dirty needing a wash, and the same car, washed and polished? THAT is example of a 'sweet spot' IMHO. It is a phase we eventual recognize. Some get to it sooner than others.