Daffodil

Yes, you are.

I am continually amazed by your view of moral relativity. It's like you believe NOTHING is inherently wrong and everyone should be allowed to do whatever makes them feel good at any given time and whatever you want to do is peachy-keen and don't dare anybody tell you that it is wrong... Your words:"would require women to do something you totally do not believe in, to us that is no different than your efforts to require women to do something that we just as strongly do not believe in right now, today". So because an act, be it abortion, or rape, or thievery, or child abuse, is what YOU want to do then it's all right? Or conversely, if there is a crime you don't believe should be criminal, say extortion, then anyone making you abide by an anti-extortion law is forcing you to behave in manner you don't like? Life isn't all about you and your whims and desires minute-to-minute! Pro-life people believe abortion is the taking of a human life. Just as you hopefully would condemn taking the life of a 3 day old newborn, we condemn taking the life of a gestating human-to-be. Yes, I want to criminalize the taking of human life, regardless of it's stage of development. It's tough to sugar-coat those words for the sake of not "hurting anybody's feelings".

OK, let's say you hear someone passionately advocating murder, rape, child abuse...would you not strongly and vociferously condemn that person? Or would you be "polite and respectful " towards them? When a judge metes out a sentence to a convicted killer or rapist or terrorist, does he not call the person, or at least the deed "evil"? C'mon, folks. Let's not be politically correct to the point of ridiculousness. YOU feel strongly about murder, rape, car jacking, child abuse...I feel that abortion is most assuredly murder ! Why should I act so polite and respectful about it? It's because you have convinced yourself that abortion is just a choice...like buying a Buick instead of a Jeep, having blonde hair instead of brown...that you speak the words abortion and respectful together amazes me. Who respects the human rights of the child-to-be?

Point taken.

Let's turn back the clock to about 150 years ago. Debate about slavery. A pro-slavery advocate uses your words: "Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. What gets me is when people speak out so hatefully against someone who made a decision that is perfectly legal in our country". Now, 1955. Issue: Government sanctioned segregation. A segregationist using your words: "Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. What gets me is when people speak out so hatefully against someone who made a decision that is perfectly legal in our country". Thank goodness for people who speak out against a perfectly-legal act.

I hold little hope for you anyways. How someone can be on the fence about this issue bewilders me. You hate my words...OK. I hate the act of abortion. Are words and abortion morally equivalent? I don't think so. Slaveholders once hated the rhetoric of emancipation advocates. Ant-Nazi sentiment had you arrested and jailed, or terminated. The Taliban hates the rhetoric of democracy. I can live with you hating my words. It must be difficult to hear that abortion stops a beating heart. It really DOES stop a beating heart. I didn't make that up. You hate my words more than you hate the act of stopping a developing human's heart. Hmmm. My sympathy.

We MUST judge and condemn criminal, illegal, immoral behavior. Can we love the sinner? Yes. But we must also condemn her for her immoral actions. Those are two different ideas. Otherise we would judge no one, there would be no laws, no prosecutions, no punishment for wrongdoing and lawlessless would be the law of the land.

Carlene,' Yes, convenience encompasses no money/job, no support system, no place to live. In this day and age there are all kinds of safety nets....medicaid, Temporary Aid to Needy Families (TANF), food banks, shelters, rent assistance, cash assistance, etc. True, I would love to see more organizations as Birthright, Catholic family Charities...in our culture of abortion on demand, for any reason, it is unfashionable to openly support these groups. But think back to 150 years ago....it was DANGEROUS in the South to preach anti-slavery sentiment--imagine !! Contrast that with our current law which criminalizes it. Just because the current popular opinion is that abortion is acceptable in no way means that will be the thinking in the future. Your wonderful story about your wonderful Tommy illustrates the reason why abortion should be illegal. It is too fast, too easy a choice, and so devastatingly permanent. Plus the part that pro-abortion folks hate to hear...it interrupts what would otherwise be a living, breathing human person. Undeniable fact.

OK, then YOU have no right to make laws at all against anything because I may "disagree" that the action constitutes a crime. So we should live in a lawless society. That's the logical conclusion to your argument. The Taliban doesn't allow women to vote, to hold jobs, to walk the streets alone...hey, they believe in their actions, but in this country we believe it is a crime to keep women from voting. So the real answer to your whole point is: As a society we legislate, we adjudicate. Times change, mores change. As a society we decide what is right and wrong at any given time in history. Yes, we tell each other what to do. My work is to change the law I find reprehensible--that allowing abortion. I have no problem telling you that it should be criminal, as society tells us that murder, rqae, extortion, child abuse is criminal. If I don't like something being criminal, I'll vote for those who share my point of view. But please don't say "Don't make me live by your rules". I want you to live by my rules just as you want me to live by yours, or you would instead be preaching anarchy.

You sound like a nice person, but this "I won't belittle people because of their choices" stuff is wrong. Would you say the same to a murderer, a rapist, a car thief? Of course you wouldn't ! YOU would condemn their actions! Abortion is murder, only the victim cannot scream, cannot kick and scratch and fight for his or her life. But neither can a baby, a toddler, but we consider the murder of those helpless creatures a crime. The truth of it is women abort almost exclusively because the child is inconvenient at that given point in their lives. They look for a way to rationalize the extinction of their baby's life and goodness knows they don't have to look very far....try this forum. All kinds of people will tell them..hey, it's a clump of cells. But that clump of cells is a living, developing being who will be a PERSON if allowed to. Why have juries convicted people of 2 murders when the victim was pregnant? Because they sanely recognized the two lives.

Mark, Your words: "I just have a need to stop you from forcing me to live by your rules", "and if I disagree with you, why do you get to be the one to decide, and set the rules, about how I live my life"? I believe that rape is wrong, murder is wrong, extortion is wrong. EVEN IF YOU THINK THEY'RE RIGHT, I, AND SOCIETY, THINK THEY ARE WRONG AND WILL PUNISH THOSE WHO COMMIT THEM. It's not all about you, Mark. Civil society does not hinge on making sure anybody who wants to do anything should be allowed to. We live by the rule of law. If you wish to live in a society where there are no laws ( laws being "someone telling you what to do"), then you need to live somewhere on an island, all alone. It is ridiculous and childish to make the comments you have made.

I'm sorry, but to rationalize the killing of two of your babies because their death afforded you another child, in this case a daughter, is so evil that it is hard to describe. Hey--how about a poor woman killing her toddlers because she can't afford them, but now childless she can afford college, and makes better money and finally decide she has the money to have another child and raise the child with a better standard of living? So it is justified that she eliminated the two toddlers because NOW she has a beautiful little girl. How evil. Yes, evil. Oh no ! I just made her feel bad about her action, just judged the morality of her actions ! How dare I do that? She's an American, thank you ,and no one should be allowed to tell her that her action was wrong! After all, it's all relative, right? Nothing I want to do should be illegal because I have a RIGHT to do it. And please don't make me "feel bad" about my choices. How very monstrous. Man, very sad.

If you think that any action is your right, who is anybody to tell you not to do it? If it feels good, do it, huh? You narcisstic person. Yes, society has a right to make laws and tell you it is NOT right to kill. You think those cells are not life? If allowed to gestate 9 months there would be a baby born...a baby comprised of a whole lotta cells....not a potao, not an iPod, not a coup de ville...but a baby. A baby which is afforded protection the millisecond he or she comes out of the birth canal, but not before. That's what screwed up. Your moral relativism is shameful and someday compassionate people will make your "death choice" ILLEGAL again. Go ahead, watch Gadgetgirl's video of an abortion and tell us a child was not murdered. I'll bet you cannot.

Your argument is illogical. If you were to take the life of an person who is "extremely mentally retarded, disfigured to the point of daily agony and pain, or beaten and raped daily by a family member " you would be arrested and tried for murder. Why? Because society values not only "perfectly healthy 27 year olds" but the ill, the infirm, the not-so-perfect among us. If abortion is good because it saves society from spending money taking care of the millions who would live, rather than die due to abortion, why then not start euthanizing those who are not productive members, the ill, the elderly, the mentally retarded, the physcially handicapped? Doesn't the government spend trillions on their care? Who gets to decide who lives and who dies? In abortion, the innocent life cannot choose---he or she depends on the mother...and the more that mothers choose convenience over the life of a child, the more children will die. Statistics show overwhelmingly that abortions due to rape, fetal maldevelopment or "to save the life of the mother" are infintessimal compared to abortions done because of inconvenience. __________________

The discussion of human life and its destruction through abortion is not "fun". To you this is a rhetorical exercise...to the unborn whose lives are exterminated before their natural birth, abortion iis their end. What I find fascinating is the equal moral equivalence you give to the practice of an abortion and to the women whose "feelings" are hurt by listening to the words of a pro-life individual. To you, "hate words" and the possibility that a woman will feel "bad" is morally equivalent to the act of stopping a person's development...indeed, you think hurting the "feelings" of a woman is WORSE than the act of destroying, exterminating, crushing the life of an unborn, gestating person. Well perhaps we should also be more concerned for a murderer's feelings than the victim he/she murdered? For the "feelings" of the rapist who in court is faced with the condemnation of his crime by the judge, rather than the wellbeing for the victim? Oh yes, I, a pro-life advocate who speaks of the immorality of destroying a human being, am worse than the people--abortionists, women who willingly kill the life inside of them--who commit this heinous act. Yes, my "speech" is morally worse than their actions. Unbelievable. This type of reasoning is what allows a Hitler.

I never asked bacause I frankly don't care. That you support the murder of unborn human beings is your stain.

And I feel sorry that your compassion is towards those who kill, rather than those who try to stop the killing and especially towards those who have no voice and will never have a voice because of what you wish to so strongly protect. Your posts reveal you as a person who speaks in the words of the pro-abortion movement, rather than knowlegdeable well-thought out positions. I sleep soundly every night knowing I don't support the abortionists and their supporters. In the 1940's the extermination of the Jews was wrong, just as the murder of the unborn human being in 2007 is wrong. This is not hate speech against women--it is a pronouncement that like Hitler, the modern-day extermination of life is morally, and most certainly, wrong. You are morally, and most certainly, misguided and wrong.

Honey, it is murder, it is an evil act. I speak only the truth and I realize it is difficult to hear it.

You're wrong. Making abortion illegal WILL lead to a great outcome...millions more developing people, almost 99.9% identical genetically to you and I, will live, breathe, have a first kiss, drive a car, get married, get divorced, watch baseball and QVC, and grow to their life expectancy...aren't you glad your mother didn't abort you?

Woman, you are amazing. I would love to email you. You are intelligent, cogent and logical.

Honey, you are in the wrong place if you think Americans telling other Americans what to do is wrong. There are laws which allow us to live in a civil manner. I WANT a law punishing someone for rape, for murder, for thievery, for malpractice, regardless if he/she thinks they have a "right" to do it. C'mon !

Oh my goodness, Miss Bjean, please study history ! Tell us, was slavery legal ? Did the courts rule in favor of segregation, "separate but equal"? Did the courts declare a black person 3/5ths of a person? The answer to all of the questions is yes. And did the courts reverse ALL those decisions? Of course they did. Do you then really think the abortion question is settled for all times? Think about it. I don't. I believe the Alito court has, and will continue to, chip away incrementally at the disingenuous decision of Roe until the right of the developing fetus to sustain LIFE is codified.

You cannot legally fill your body with illegal drugs. You cannot use your body to sell sex on the street corner. You cannot legally inject your body with Laetril. Laws govern your body everyday. Do what you wish with your body...your developing child is separate from your body...your child has DNA you don't. Stop believing that child has no right to live unless you find it is convenient. You are not a mother if you kill your child. You are a murderer. For the rest of your life. No matter how you deny it, in the dark of the night, in the secrecy of your inner thoughts, you know you stopped your child's beating heart.

Gadgetlady, you are phenomenal ! The idea of moral relativism which is held by many is frightening. Hopefully the Court will decide this issue once and for all. I believe just as Americans in 2007 look back in repentence and astonishment at our country's endorsement of slavery and the denial of basic rights to minorities, we will someday look back at 2007 and say "how did we allow those 30 million developing human lives to be destroyed because they were inconvenient?" But how many million more must be killed before we issue that wail? These pro-abortion people are almost inhuman, ironically, while they glibly talk about their rights, while denying the right of life to a growing human person.

Now don't be childish. You know I was using those examples to make a point. Please try to debate honestly.