joe7777

1. You are a nazi concentration camp survivor 2. You are freed and you study medicine 3. You become a doctor. 4. You are ahead of your time before it's legal in your country to perform a procedure (in the sense that you see it as a medical procedure and they see it as a crime) 5. You openly claim what you have done, because you are a strong believer in the fact that it is safe and better than the alternative (black market procedures/ unsafe practices) 6. You go to court all the way until the supreme court claims you are right 7. Your clinics are at constant threat from violence and harrasment. Regardless of what procedure...Is this person not courageous? (this is the true story of Dr. Henry Morgentaler)

it's kind of hard when you're going at snails pace...we're here supporting everything and within 5 minutes i can find most answers i need. But if you want me to RE-ASK for the 3rd of 4th time the hypothetical scenario, i would like a yes or no on that.

And you.... You don't answer my hypothetical scenario. I did NOT say abortion was the procedure. Just putting it so that you are on the same viewpoint as I. You see, to me an abortion is a medical procedure, to you it's murder. Thats why i didnt specify. Now if that doctor was ANY other doctor would he not be courageous? If he was a doctor treating AIDS and that was illegal because the country you live in believes its a punishment from god and aiding someone affected by it is wrong. Would you think someone fighting for what he believes is right to be courageous? I would be hard pressed to find someone who doesnt.

Do you think because of my age i am not capable of rational argument? I would first like to say that the argument YOU made is not logical, actually it's a logical fallacy. Ad hominem, i.e. consists of replying to an argument or factual claim by attacking or appealing to a characteristic or belief of the person making the argument or claim, rather than by addressing the substance of the argument or producing evidence against the claim. How does my age affect this? If i were to ask you what your level of education was and you were to answer high school graduate or community college graduate, could i attack you on the grounds of my being a university graduate? What if i had a masters degree (in 2-3 years i will) ? I think that as a person, i am more mature than some people twice my age, because i have actually grown into my own person. Most people will follow blindly in what they were tought (ever wonder why you're not hindu or muslim?? No it's not because catholicism has the better answers or is MORE righteous. It's because that's how you were raised) Well...i broke those bonds and found my own answers. They rest in reason and rationality. My latest posts have been backed by scientific journals, is that not good enough for you?

Its the internet, its hard to get tone across.

<p>Religion% have been divorcedJews30%Born-again Christians27%Other Christians24%Atheists, Agnostics21%</p>ç U.S. divorce rates: for various faith groups, age groups and geographical areas

Yes, i know i gave up on the religious criminals thing. It was talked about and i couldnt really add anything scientific. I tried, but that halfbaked article was the best i could come up with. I can tell you this though. Religion doesn't strenghten anything. Christian marriages end more frequently than atheist marriages. I guess t'ill death do us part is not to be taken as literally as the bible they are saying should be.

Why would you read a POLITICAL article about him. This is just a bitch/moan article about taxes and funding. His history is much more interesting.

hahaha, yes, she won't even answer a simple hypothetical scenario. I guess it's because she knows that deep down she HAS to say yes.

Oh yes, i know i've read the book god is not great by christopher hitchens. It's hard to conceive that atheists/agnostics are oft-times 3-4 times greater numbers than jewish populations. You wouldnt think so because of their greater political influence and lobbies etc. But I believe it's dawkins that said, (paraphrasing) that getting atheists into a group is like herding cats, they all think for themselves, they are rational and don't follow a herd.

L8bloomr....you havent responded to ANYTHING i've written. What about my hypothetical scenario? What do you think about these articles, please do try to answer me...I eagerly await what you have to say.

The odds are 1 in 7 (14.3%) that if you're a pregnant woman in Niger, you will die in childbirth. - Time Magazine, 10/29/07 (not as great as the other 2...but still) Now is that not a women's health issue (WHO seems to think so, and these are the people who issue such publications as the world health report)

Around 57,000 unsafe abortions were being performed in Nepal every year, resulting in complications responsible for at least 20% of maternal deaths. However, the recent legalisation of abortion up to 90 days of pregnancy (or up to 18 weeks if pregnancy resulted from rape) is beginning to address this problem as government abortion clinics are being set up. Abortion is illegal in Egypt unless the woman's life is in imminent danger. Damage to the fetus is not accepted as a reason for abortion, a legal position emphasised by a recent fatwa that says that “it is impermissible for the mother to induce abortion [even] if it is proven that the fetus is deformed or suffers from mental retardation… It is not a justifiable excuse”. Nevertheless, women regularly find ways to end unwanted pregnancies. A 1996 study among 1,300 Egyptian women by the Cairo Demographic Centre found that one-third had attempted to terminate a pregnancy. Other studies suggest that about one-third of abortions are carried out without medical supervision, with women trying traditional remedies or overdoses of aspirin or quinine, at a risk to their own lives. Reproductive Health Matters, vol.12, no.24, pp.217, 2004

I realize my last quoted article was REALLY weak(the one on atheism vs catholics in prison)...I'm going to start doing more thorough research. As you can see...Annals of surgery is the first of many.

A little snippet from Annals of Surgery.Combat Casualty Care and Surgical Progress Basil A. Pruitt, Jr, MD, FACSFrom the Department of Surgery, University of Texas Health Science Center, San Antonio, TX. Surgical progress was further impeded in 1163 when the Council of Tours issued the “Ecclesia Abhorret a Sanguine” (“the church abhors bloodshed”) edict.6 This edict removed surgery from the practice of physicians, most of whom at that time were also clergymen, and in effect assigned an inferior status to surgical practice as compared with the practice of medicine, which further separated medicine and surgery. Wow, isnt the catholic church just a dandy! You really have to look at religion as a whole, you cant just pick and choose the parts you like best.

Ok...lets do a hypothetical scenario. 1. You are a nazi concentration camp survivor 2. You are freed and you study medicine 3. You become a doctor. 4. You are ahead of your time before it's legal in your country to perform a procedure (in the sense that you see it as a medical procedure and they see it as a crime) 5. You openly claim what you have done, because you are a strong believer in the fact that it is safe and better than the alternative (black market procedures/ unsafe practices) 6. You go to court all the way until the supreme court claims you are right 7. Your clinics are at constant threat from violence and harrasment. Regardless of what procedure...Is this person not courageous? (this is the true story of Dr. Henry Morgentaler)

Just look at the jail statistics . In "The New Criminology," Max D. Schlapp and Edward E. Smith say that two generations of statisticians found that the ratio of convicts without religious training is about 1/10th of 1%. W.T. Root, Professor of Psychology at the University of Pittsburgh, examined 1,916 prisoners and said, "Indifference to religion, due to thought, strengthens character," adding that Unitarians, Agnostics, Atheists and Free-Thinkers were absent from penitentiaries, or nearly so. During 10 years in Sing-Sing, of those executed for murder 65% were Catholics, 26% Protestants, 6% Hebrew, 2% Pagan, and less than 1/3 of 1% non-religious. Steiner and Swancara surveyed Canadian prisons and found 1,294 Catholics, 435 Anglicans, 241 Methodists, 135 Baptists, and 1 Unitarian. Dr. Christian, Superintendent of the N.Y. State Reformatories, checked records of 22,000 prison inmates and found only 4 college graduates. In "Who's Who," 91% were college graduates; Christian commented that "intelligence and knowledge produce right living," and, "crime is the offspring of superstition and ignorance." PS. About Thou shalt not kill: isnt there a HUGE loophole in christianity. Confession. Absolve your sins. When you live in reason (aka, outside religion) you are accountable for your actions.

I don't even know why this is such a big issue. Abortion is a women's health issue. Pretty much every industrialized country seems to think so. So does the WHO. But then, if the church says its wrong, it must be because we can trust the church... Read this http://www.who.int/reproductive-health/publications/safe_abortion/safe_abortion.pdf

HAHAAHAHAHA wow, how naive. Do you know who the most violent people are?? Religious people. 5 murders in the US of abortion doctors. Many more arsons, bombings, threats of violence, attempted murders...etc Also, when a doctor is speaking out that he has performed over 5000 abortions safely and it's still illegal, thats courage. Of course our legal system decided on that issue once and for all.

Well what i meant to say was, i shouldnt think he's incompetant. Because obviously he's qualified. But yeah, i really didnt want to be in there, After he couldnt find it after 2 pokes i wanted out...even at tlbc i need nancy to do the fill, even the extremely trained other nurses cant get it. So i dont know how i deluded myself to thinking this guy could. I mean its great that most ottawa people can get it done by him...just sucks i cant.

Really wasn't impressed. It scared me how old he was. I know i shouldnt question a doctors ability, but honestly...i was a bit nervous. Also, he couldnt find my port, its not flipped, but its turned. At least he didnt charge me. Looks like this fill will have to do for now, and i'm going to have to head back to toronto later on.

Well, FSM bless Canada, because we have no gestational limits, YAY! As a matter of fact there is no regulation of abortion. Although doctors choose themselves to abort only usually before 24 weeks or so. Thanks to courageous efforts from people like Dr. Morgentaler. I'm sure he's on your Xmas card list.

seeing dr gustaukas today at 4:30....saves me time and money of going to toronto, ill check back in to tell you all how it went....hopefully this gets me to my sweet spot (how elusive it has been!)

One thing that makes me laugh is that most people who are anti-choice are bible huggers. WELLLLLLL....read your bible. ''And The Lord God formed man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and man became a living being.'' (Genesis 2:7) I am not a fan of religion or the bible, but doesn't that just make you laugh, If something has not had a breath of life, it is not a living being. So now you can STOP calling a bunch of cells a baby. Thanks.

If anything Canada Is more in that boat than the US. We have illegals coming here ALLLLL the time, a lot of them probably even US citizens who just can't afford coverage.