WASaBubbleButt

If you think about it we already have socialized medicine. People are not refused medical care here, especially emergency medical care. Got a sore throat? Go to any county hospital. You are not forced to pay before receiving treatment. I'm about as anti-socialized medicine as they come. (Look at county hospitals and the VA system, our gov't is too stupid to do a good job on a small scale) But in reality, we already have socialized medicine. Canada has their up sides to their medical care and we have our up sides. Both have down sides as well.

You added your comment in my quote, it would have appeared to others that I wrote that sentence and I did not.

I just bought some tofu last night. I'm going to soak it in soy sauce and garlic. Mmmmm

I don't have time for this on a weekly basis. Nor do I want to make the time. I have heard them out time and time again. No desire to keep hearing the same thing. If I want to hear them out isn't it fair that I will go to them? Do they need to keep knocking on my door? I was Christian for many years, I know the bible better than most Christians. The way it usually ends up being is my correcting them on their bible. I'm an atheist, I don't want to give bible lessons anymore. I shouldn't have to do that when someone is attempting to convert me to their religion. I should not know their religion better than they do. It makes them look silly and I have no desire to do that either.

Whoa there, darl'en. You added something to my quote that I did not write. You quoted me as writing: What *I* wrote was: I did not write the sentence in the text you quoted.

Actually, I was looking for a lame example intentionally. It was just going to show my point. Without the life changing event you could not just "choose" to stop believing. Well, the same holds true for me. Without some evidence or life changing event, I can't just "choose" to believe. People make these comments ALL the darn time, that I should just choose to believe. It simply isn't possible. I could SAY I believe, I could make that claim, but it wouldn't be true.

I can't do that. I'm a mega carb addict. If I eat white carbs I can't stop. For me it is all or none. Calories my butt... I don't care. If I am chowing down on carbs it just doesn't end. I'm one of those people it's all or none. The more I eat the more I crave. If I don't eat them I don't crave them. It's a nasty cycle I get into. That's why it is not the norm for white carbs to cross my lips. I just can't do it. No will power. I WILL eat around my band so I have to cut them out. I have white carbs maybe... once a month. Then I turn into a couch slug and I eat more white carbs. I'm thrilled for those that can eat them in small quantities but I'm just not one of those people.

I think you are missing my point. You are saying that if a life changing event happened you might choose to stop believing. I am saying something different. If I suggest to you that today, right this minute... stop believing in God. You could do that, right? You said it's a choice. Could you do it? Or does your heart tell you differently? Can you turn your belief on and off like a light switch? This moment you believe, the very next moment you don't... just because you don't want to believe anymore. Wouldn't it be a true statement to say that it would take a specific event to change your mind about your God and if he exists vs. just deciding you don't want to believe anymore? Do you believe that squares and circles are the same exact thing? No, you know logically that is impossible. So what would it take for you to decide you believe squares and circles are the same exact thing? Can you turn that kind of a belief on and off? Or do you need evidence before you can change your mind? Don't you need an event to prove you were wrong the first time? If I tell you my water heater is the true God, would you believe it? Why not? Can't you just turn your beliefs on and off at a whim? That's kinda my point.

Thankfully, in real time most of my friends know what I mean vs. what I say. I don't think I'd have any friends if they didn't. HA!

Keep in mind, I live near Mesa, Arizona. Mormon Land. So we do get a LOT more here than other places might. The kids have to do their mission or whatever it's called. You know, where they dress in black pants, a white shirt, tie, and their bike going door to door. Then there are JW's that are here all the time leaving their brochures when I don't answer the door or at grocery stores, etc. Or, maybe it's because one day I finally explained I am atheist and have no desire to be converted so they are taking me on as a special cause. :fish2: Our airport finally had to ban them because they were getting so many complaints from travelers that just wanted to board a plane. Then there are missions that go to other countries and teach about their religion, isn't that witnessing? They aren't just handing out food, they are handing out religion as well. Native Americans... not a single one used to be Christian before we invaded. Those folks had their children taken from them at young ages, sent to a boarding school (according to the military it was cheaper to change them to white customs than it was to kill them), and after the children were Christian they were returned home with the instruction of converting their family. By that time they didn't even remember their family, they didn't know them. Christianity does have a poor rep throughout history for converting those that don't think their way and I think that bleeds over today (speaking emotionally and how people respond/react) when Christians still attempt to convert.

When I am a child my parents tell me things and I believe them because they are my parents. When I am old enough to think rationally for myself I accept reality. They told me Santa existed and I believed that, but when I was old enough to use critical thinking skills I realized they were wrong and didn't take what they say as fact. I didn't "choose" to be an atheist, it doesn't work that way. I fought it for many years. For a good 15-20 years I tried my best to believe. I studied many religions trying to find one I *could* believe in. I was everything from Roman Catholic to Unitarian, to Jewish (took the cool classes and everything), to New Age Twinkie, and finally one day I realized I was an atheist. I didn't choose to be atheist, I simply realized it one day and acknowledged it. Believe me, if I was going to choose a belief or lack of belief, it wouldn't be atheism. It's not exactly the easier path in life.

I am the QUEEN of having to rephrase things to explain what I meant vs. what I wrote.

When it comes to a belief in a god is most certainly is not a choice. It is either there or it isn't. One does not turn belief on and off at will. Just like astrology is a study, astronomy is a science. The two are not the same. Nobody asked for an explanation of why someone believes or doesn't believe. The issue is if it is a choice. I totally agree with you about the path issue. Each person is on their own path in this world. No two paths are the same.

Belief is not a choice. It's not like a light switch ones turns on and off. It is or it isn't. What would it take for you to simply quit believing in your God? Simple, right?

I should have clarified, I really wasn't referring to you. I was referring to an extreme example of a point I was making. Honestly, I didn't have you in mind at all when I wrote that post.

Here we disagree. Eve didn't mess up, God did. What was that tree she ate from?

Now to respond to the part of your post that didn't make me almost fall out of my chair... One other issue you have to realize is that Christianity is the ONLY religion that practices active witnessing. It is the Christians out there attempting to gain more followers. Don't you think that is going to upset a few people? I have people coming to my door at least weekly attempting to convert me to their faith. They are without a doubt, 100%, Christians. Don't you think that is going to annoy a few folks? I was raised Christian, I know the routine, I don't believe it. I'll make up my own mind. Having people come to my door to tell me I am wrong and I will burn in hell for not thinking their way... it's annoying. If I don't answer the door I'm rude, if I tell them I am not interested I'm rude. If I tell them I am an atheist they have actually asked to see if I have the mark of the devil on my hands. If I still don't convert they tell me I speak the words of the devil. How would you feel in my shoes? Honestly, how would you feel? I've yet to have a Christian come to my door and welcome me in the neighborhood as an atheist or thrilled I was there. That's why I can't tell people in real time my lack of belief. BTW, I lack belief in a devil too. To me it's like threatening me with hell for not believing in the Easter bunny. It's just ... well, silly. Do you know I have been lectured about working on Sundays? It was by a Christian. He said I was so sweet and caring so I must surely be a Christian and therefore I should know better than to work on Sundays. ??? The man just had a heart attack, he was in CCU. I was his nurse. Should I really go home for the day? Would that make me a better person to let him fend for himself? THIS is what we encounter. If I am nice and treat him with compassion and respect as a patient then I am obviously Christian. Can you imagine what he would have thought had I told him I am atheist? It wasn't the time or place for a religion debate and my lack of belief is really none of his business. But it's the point. It's frustrating and annoying not to mention insulting. If people had ANY clue who is caring for them in hospitals they'd be shocked. The majority are either gay or atheist. We just don't talk about it. But you know what? The best hospital I ever worked for was Mayo Clinic and the nuns were the last people to care what our belief or lack of belief was. Their expectations were the highest around and they demanded the best from everyone. If you couldn't cut it you were out of there without a second thought. But our beliefs or lack of were the least of their concerns. They have the right attitude. I think Mayo is probably the hospital with the most atheists of all places I have worked. You can't stand on your tippy toes, arms stretched out, and spin in circles without hitting an atheist. Can you imagine what the Christian fundie types would think of that? Heh....

Huh???? I'm an atheist, HELLO???

Ever notice that if you eat KFC your skin and hair are extra oily the following day? Your food choices now have less fat, sugar, and transfats. Your diet is better. See what a difference it makes to eat a diet with less crap?

Hey... not fair! Nobody here is saying that. Personally, I couldn't have BEEN more clear that those who behave the worst are the minority. I explained pretty well that as an atheist when someone discovers in real time (or on line, often times) it is the loud horrible Christians I encounter. The nice folks sit back and watch. I think Lauren made the same point. Nobody here has claimed as you say. In atheism terms, we call that attitude the persecuted Christian claim. It's simply untrue.

BeL is the company that advertises for the doc, arranges surgery, schedules everything, and does all the before and after work. If you have problems getting return calls just think of what it will be like after the surgery is done and you have a problem or question. I would find a doc where you can work directly with the doc's office and THEIR staff. If BeL won't let you do that, or if the doc doesn't want to deal with you before or after surgery then I would find someone else. This is a band for life, you need follow up care for life. Talk to the doc or at least his staff personally. If you can't get through to the staff now you won't be able to after all is done and over. Most docs want the best for their patients, their rep depends on it. Besides, they didn't go into medicine to screw people over, they want to make a difference. So talk to the doc's staff if you can't get anywhere with BeL.

IndigoGirl... I read a post on another board recently by a guy who went to Ortiz for his surgery. He was really angry with Dr. Ortiz because he had to watch what he ate. He felt for the $10K or whatever he spent the band should do everything for him. For that kind of money the pounds should just magically fall off overnight. He was absolutely furious over this and thought it was all Dr. O's fault. What are people thinking? I don't understand this. How can anyone go into this surgery without fully understanding how everything works? He wasn't exercising, he wasn't eating right and he wasn't losing. He was at least thankful that he wasn't gaining but he believes he's been duped. Let's just say we had a chat and he at least understands how things work. Amazing. I guess it goes with the attitude that some folks have. If you spend enough money you can get whatever you want. Well, that doesn't always work. Sometimes you spend a lot of money for a great tool that helps YOU do the work. At least, that's how my band works for me. HA!

Whoops... sorry, I didn't realize those links would be something you have to register for. It is delphi.com. Just a bunch of message boards similar to Welcome to About.com. If you do register just use a fake email address or a yahoo address. I've been a member for years and have never received spam but you never know when they'll start.

This brings up an excellent point. I agree, atheists need to live a good life and harm nobody. Let's say I agree with you about being judged. Do you think someone should be judged by the life they life or who they worship?

Elena... Atheists tend to lump certain types of Christians in one group and we refer to them as fundies. Fundies to most of us are the type of folks as in the link posted above. There are quite a few atheists that would disagree with me but I have a hunch Lauren would agree with me about my thoughts on this. Just as there are Christian fundies there are atheist fundies. They are the type that want to do the thinking for everyone, they want everyone to believe (or lack belief) as they do, anyone who doesn't think and feel as they do are stupid and unable to think on their own, etc. There ARE atheist fundies. Fundies are not a specific religion in my mind, they are a specific mindset, they have a specific way of thinking. Ron is one of them, he used to post over here but pretty much realized he was out of his league and ran away when he couldn't battle those with a working brain. But the fundies here of either side (believer/non believer) are few and far between.