GeezerSue

Gee, that's not what the SCIENTISTS say. Again: http://www.medpagetoday.com/StateRequiredCME/PainManagement/tb/3099

i know that we have a local church in our neighborhood where a Respite Care Program is hosted. Sometimes, just an afternoon is like a lifetime! Do you have a local Agency for the Aging or Senior Place that can provide a break for you now and then?

Carlene, I appreciate that they BELIEVE that they are helping. I just continue to point out that--in MY opinion--they are NOT, and they don't even have "standing" in someone else's decision. I don't suppose this will provide MUCH consolation, but this article discusses the "pain" part of the violence issue for the first two trimesters, anyway: http://www.medpagetoday.com/StateRequiredCME/PainManagement/tb/3099 In part: BIRMINGHAM, England, April 14 - Fetuses are physically incapable of feeling pain until the end of the second trimester, and unlike newborn children have not developed the processes that would allow them to recognize pain as a signal of a harmful encounter, a researcher here asserted. "An absence of pain in the fetus does not resolve the question of whether abortion is morally acceptable or should be legal," wrote Stuart W.G. Derbyshire, Ph.D., a senior psychologist at the University of Birmingham, in the April 15 issue of the BMJ, formerly the British Medical Journal. "Nevertheless, proposals to inform women seeking abortions of the potential for pain in fetuses are not supported by evidence."

I'll be 60 in a couple of weeks and my mom was getting to the point where she needed 24/7 supervision and aid. We moved her to an assisted living facility back in July. She (finally) loves it. It is NOT a nursing home or a hospice. No sick people. Just the frail and elderly. She has her own apartment, her own cat, company for meals, someone to assist with showers, someone to make the bed and clean the apartment and 24/7 medication management. If she falls or becomes ill, there is a nurse on hand to determine if medical care is needed...or just first aid. Although I WANTED to yell at her yesterday, because she kept counting five things and "getting" six and because she gave one of the food service people a tip (not allowed, but he took it) there is usually a lot less stress. I have NO idea how people do this at home. I just want to say that there is no shame in getting help. WITH the assisted living, I am still (mostly) her daughter and not (mostly) her caregiver. And we both like it better that way. If nothing else, there may be respite care available to give you some mental health time. Good luck with Mom and with the weight loss.

What's with the "WE?" Any definition of the meaning of "life" or "death" would inherently contain philosophical and /or religious and/or societal values...often even for those writing the defintions which are found in books or online. That's why decisions based on such issues--abortions...Terri Schivo's electrical supply...whether the US or Saddam should be killing Iraqis--are never going to have consensus. Never. So, lose the "WE." Your position on this issue is reflective of the values of your other beliefs--the mega-church you mentioned, for example. My position is reflective of differing beliefs...maybe I subscribe to something akin to the OLD Catholic Church position on abortion...maybe the traditional Jewish position. Maybe just my own position developed as a conglomerate of those influences. Whatever their origin, my definitions are value-laden. And so are yours. You want everyone else on the planet to live by YOUR values...and you don't even begin to see how presumptuous that is. I want people to think things over and--in concert with their doctors and advisors--make the best decision they can. And, for reasons known only to those who share your beliefs, you find that my desire to make my decisions without your guidance somehow negatively impacts your life. So, I'll try again. I don't care about your God...or your Fairy Godmother or your Tooth Fairy or any other belief you have. I don't care about your mega-church--in spite of the fact that they seem to maintain a "classifieds" page where they feel quite free to violate several laws and advertise for Christian employees and Christian work environments and Christian tenants. And, BTW, abortions happened during Christ's time on the planet. How come he took offense at the money-changers in the temple but not at the women having abortions? (Uh...don't ask that one at the mega-church with its $7 million annual budget, okay?) Kindly consider that your desire to cause the behavior of others to align with your beliefs is intrusive and presumptuous and really, really arrogant. WWJD? He'd have some wine at the wedding, hang with the hooker and NOT align himself with the money-dudes at the temple.

Wrong, again. The procedure was developed to prevent having fetal remains left inside the woman's body post-abortion (see the earlier post about the woman with the fetal remains in her body for months...same thing when it's less than an entire fetus) and because it was SAFER for the woman (you know, the "PERSON" in this scenario.)

If you were a fifteen-year-old who had never heard of a fetus, I'd have to assume you were being home-schooled by religious fanatics who keep calling a fetus "a baby." If you were a "foreigner," you'd probably be able to educate me on the topic because in most other countries, science curricula is left to the scientists and not the religious-political fervor of the moment. I WOULD tell you that a library--and not a church--is your best bet for locating that information and point you in that direction.

From the AMA: H-5.982 Late-Term Pregnancy Termination Techniques (1) The term 'partial birth abortion' is not a medical term. The AMA will use the term "intact dilatation and extraction"(or intact D&X) to refer to a specific procedure comprised of the following elements: deliberate dilatation of the cervix, usually over a sequence of days; instrumental or manual conversion of the fetus to a footling breech; breech extraction of the body excepting the head; and partial evacuation of the intracranial contents of the fetus to effect vaginal delivery of a dead but otherwise intact fetus. This procedure is distinct from dilatation and evacuation (D&E) procedures more commonly used to induce abortion after the first trimester. Because 'partial birth abortion' is not a medical term it will not be used by the AMA. (2) According to the scientific literature, there does not appear to be any identified situation in which intact D&X is the only appropriate procedure to induce abortion, and ethical concerns have been raised about intact D&X. The AMA recommends that the procedure not be used unless alternative procedures pose materially greater risk to the woman. The physician must, however, retain the discretion to make that judgment, acting within standards of good medical practice and in the best interest of the patient. (3) The viability of the fetus and the time when viability is achieved may vary with each pregnancy. In the second-trimester when viability may be in question, it is the physician who should determine the viability of a specific fetus, using the latest available diagnostic technology. (4) In recognition of the constitutional principles regarding the right to an abortion articulated by the Supreme Court in Roe v. Wade, and in keeping with the science and values of medicine, the AMA recommends that abortions not be performed in the third trimester except in cases of serious fetal anomalies incompatible with life. Although third-trimester abortions can be performed to preserve the life or health of the mother, they are, in fact, generally not necessary for those purposes. Except in extraordinary circumstances, maternal health factors which demand termination of the pregnancy can be accommodated without sacrifice of the fetus, and the near certainty of the independent viability of the fetus argues for ending the pregnancy by appropriate delivery. (5) The AMA urges the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention as well as state health department officials to develop expanded, ongoing data surveillance systems of induced abortion. This would include but not be limited to: a more detailed breakdown of the prevalence of abortion by gestational age as well as the type of procedure used to induce abortion at each gestational age, and maternal and fetal indications for the procedure. Abortion-related maternal morbidity and mortality statistics should include reports on the type and severity of both short- and long-term complications, type of procedure, gestational age, maternal age, and type of facility. Data collection procedures should ensure the anonymity of the physician, the facility, and the patient. (6) The AMA will work with appropriate medical specialty societies, government agencies, private foundations, and other interested groups to educate the public regarding pregnancy prevention strategies, with special attention to at-risk populations, which would minimize or preclude the need for abortions. The demand for abortions, with the exception of those indicated by serious fetal anomalies or conditions which threaten the life or health of the pregnant woman, represent failures in the social environment, education, and contraceptive methods. (BOT Rep. 26, A-97) Source: http://www.ama-assn.org/apps/pf_new/pf_online?f_n=browse&doc=policyfiles/HnE/H-5.982.HTM

Oh, good...a puzzle!

NOW we're gettin' somewhere. It's not a baby. It's a fetus. THERE'S your bottom line. So, now everone can go back to basing their decisions on what THEY should do on what THEY believe is the right thing to do regarding the fetus in THEIR womb and leave everyone else's womb the hell alone.

Their AIRFARE is free; that's an airline policy. However the government charges every PERSON--including those children--the tax. So, now we have the IRS and the FAA saying that a fetus is not a person. What do you want to bet we can find more branches of our federal government which agree?

I don't need to defend what I believe because I'm not trying to make YOU do anything...except maybe leave other people alone. The "Daddy" comment was entirely tongue-in-cheek. Maybe I need to use little smileys or something. You live in Orange County, California. You are SURROUNDED by a thoroughly conservative, Christian value system. If you grew up anywhere in the US, you were exposed to a predominantly Christian--sometimes Judeo-Christian--mindset. We are all influenced by Christianity the same way anyone growing up in Iraq would be influenced by Islam...whether they were personally involved in the believing or not. The problem with your position is that in all the other examples you give, there is a PERSON involved...someone who was born a person. Not so with a fetus. Enjoy your trip. Please note that the pregnant women on your plane did NOT have to pay passenger taxes on their fetuses as those are charged PER PERSON....

I have always shared money--and other stuff--with those who are needier than I am. Kind of interesting...you want government outlawing choice in reproductive matters but NOT requiring that even the unwilling do their part to support all those "unplanned" kids? I'd much rather have my government in my bank than in my uterus (well, I don't HAVE a uterus anymore, but ANY of that area)...but to each her own... BTW, Dubya and Laura pay about 31% of their income in taxes. Lots of us do. But they earn more than I do. Without the tax breaks he gave himself, he would have paid more. I guess he didn't feel like sharing. Interestingly enough, SOME of his charitable contribution money went to the Chapel at Camp David. Now THERE'S a cause that will help so many Americans...especially the poor ones. Yup, that's Dubya.

Gadgetlady, I'm sorry that my point wasn't more clear. I was not challenging your right to choose to believe that life begins when Daddy gets that gleam in his eye...whatever. Believe what you choose to believe. I was challenging several of the random things you mentioned...such as your belief that by using the word "fetus" you were speaking Latin and that by using the term "unborn child" you were translating from Latin. That was wrong. And I was challenging your (implied) claim that your religion does not inform the rest of what you believe. And I was challenging your claim that because YOU believe that life begins whenever you think it does, that it somehow makes it so. AND I was challenging your claim that you think that YOUR (religion-based, like it or not) beliefs about when life begins somehow impart a responsibility on others to behave in a way that conforms with your beliefs. You can carry on until the cows come home about what starts when...it matters not a whit to me. What matters is WHO DECIDES? And, with or without the permission of the religous right, I HAVE decided for myself and I will continue marching outside those clinics to keep them open for my daughter or any other woman who might need them to be open.

This is, by definition, an example of what is called a "faith claim." That is, you BELIEVE that this position is true. REAL science has to do with empirical data...NOT with what someone thinks. Our religious beliefs "inform" our other beliefs and practices. That's why--for example--many Quakers are "conscientious objectors." It's why a Muslim physician in our old neighborhood wouldn't prescribe BC pills to unmarried women. It's why you won't find many Christian Scientist surgeons. What we believe--including our religious beliefs--strongly influences what ELSE we believe.

The word "fetus," while it originates with the Latin is an English word. And, to assume that the word means the same thing in the two languages is a common error. For example, the word for "pregnant" in Spanish, sounds an awful lot like the word "embarassed" in English. They are not, however, interchangable. There are entire dictionaries devoted to these False Cognates. My old Cassell's Latin-English dictionary tells us that the word fetus, in Latin, means "pregnant, fruitful or fertile" or even "newly delivered." It can also mean "the bearing, bringng forth or hatching of young." It likewise applies to plants. To try to simplify things for others may be a kind gesture...but accuracy is helpful in these ventures. In English, too, a fetus is a fetus...not any kind of baby except in the imagination of those who wish it to be.

If those walls could talk! Do you REALLY think that was a FIRST? We always do better financially when Republicans run the place...but what's right and what's wrong can seldom be measured in dollars. I don't feel good about a few extra bucks in the bank knowing how many more families are living on the street...and how few families that USED TO HAVE medical insurance do not now have it...and how many working people cannot afford to send their kids to PUBLIC community college. Nah...I'd rather share a few bucks and l have less poverty in my midst.

Yes, but everyone is NOT entitled to make up their own facts. Uh...surely you meant Osama. right? You DO know that Saddam Hussein had NOTHING--zero, zip, zilch--to do with 9/11. Even Dubya now admits knowing that. Clinton was hiding from...?? Our national debt--which mens the tax burden we are passing on to your children and grandchildren--has never been anywhere near this huge. I'm sure this means something to you... "I guess when abortion is finally the only way to go, and gays and lesbians and the go and legally in everystate the go then we'll be where the democrats wanted us to be." but I'm having trouble following what gays and lesbians and abortion have to do with each other...or with most of us for that matter.

I had a LapBand and the Duodenal Switch (DS), which is far more invasive. And, like Anthony, my recovery included recovering from band-related problems. There is a Sue on the OH Gastric Sleeve board who was revised from band to sleeve for reasons not involving complication. I don't want to misquote her, so why don't you wander over there and ask. http://obesityhelp.com/forums/VSG/

What "punished?" (And it's a fetus, but you can call it whatever you like.)

Not every person having an abortion is a confused kid. I'm thinking about a married woman I met a few times--the sister of a friend--an RN, who had Type I Diabetes....could never conceive...had two adopted children...lived in a farming area in middle Illinois. At age 40, her vision took a dump. Doctor couldn't figure why. Other problems...mostly related to diabetes. Finally, up to the big city. She was pregnant. After twenty years of unprotected sex (the first ten because she wanted to get pregnant and the next ten because she knew she couldn't get pregnant), she was pregnant. Husband worked in the city--a 2.5 hour drive each way...because they couldn't make a living with the little farm. They kids were driven everywhere locally by the mom. They had a few acres to farm, the rest were leased out. And there she was, with her two adopted children who had already each lost a mom, getting sicker by the day and going blind...because she was pregnant for the first time in her life at age 40 with advanced diabetes. AND, according to the testing available then, the fetus wasn't doing well either. So, they opted for an abortion and it was VERY difficult for them because they had always believed that abortions were just wrong. After the abortion, she was one of the first people implanted with an insulin pump that constantly monitored her blood glucose levels and delivered the drug to her as her body needed it. I've lost touch with the family, but I know that after that pregnancy, her health was in rapid decline. I'm just sayin', she--in concert with her husband and doctor--made the best decision she could at that time. Who are any of us to criticize her? For me, the issue is one simple question...who decides?

My husband doesn't have the band but he does have psoriasis. If you can convince your insurance company that you have psoriatic arthritis--which he has and which convincing his doctor did--you may want to consider Enbrel. You may NOT want to consider it without insurance company participation, because it would cost us $2500/month...but that's up to you. It is a WONDER DRUG. Not only is he no longer a pink alligator, the arthritis is drastically improved. His psoriasis STARTED on his elbows and then went to his arms and then legs and knees and some on his head...a few on his back, his face and in his ears and on his groin. That's when he said, "ENOUGH!!!" and got the Enbrel. It is HUGELY IMPROVED. He also uses a topical medication and he tans three times a week as part of his doctor's program. I hope you find relief...it can be a burden.

So...all abortions are performed for convenience and are an act of selfishness? Mind-reading much? I know some VERY moral, VERY religious (perhaps a coincidence, perhaps not) people who were put in VERY bad situations due to an unexpected pregnancy...it was not a matter of convenience for them...it was very INconvenient to choose to do something thay had aways thought they would never do...but, if you know better, then maybe YOU should choose for all of us, right?

Been there, done that...but, the "comfort room" would have creeped me out. Silly me, I was sad/disappointed for a day or so, but figured that spontaneous first trimester abortions (with or without fetal expulsion) were "nature's way of telling me" (figure of speech, of course...I don't generally commune with nature, upper or lower case) that something was just not meant to be. This happened to me more than once, BTW. I also knew people who went completely overboard nuts with THEIR spontaneous first trimester abortions (aka miscarriages) and there was drama and hysteria and memorial services with empty little pretend coffins and all kinds of sick shit and I just never got it. These are the kind of people who, when they opt for a therapeutic abortion later decide that they committed a great sin and end up on the religious right's websites and talk shows seeking absolution for the public at large. (Interestingly enough, the most dramatic of my acquaintances who went Drama Queen over a miscarriage has three kids...one a convicted felon on crack living in her garage, one a former cop that no department will rehire and who never paid a dime of child support for HIS kids, and the third who got arrested while shoplifting...she was rather visible at age 17 and nine-months pregnant and wearing her Catholic School uniform in maternity style, so imagine how surprised she was when she got arrested again, a year later for shoplifting at the same store while NOT pregnant. She figured they wouldn't recognize her. What this family needed was another kid...)

You can call them "babies"...I can call them "evidence of a crime" (in some cases), but what they ARE is fetuses...and that's all. We can anthropomorphize til the cows come home, they just aren't people....(uh...the fetuses, not the cows...just being clear.)