GeezerSue

Sunta and Pam...you ladies sure do your homework. I really--I mean REALLY--do not enjoy mythology but I admire those who manage to wade through it. Pam, throughout history, man has "created" magical, mystical, powerful beings to help make the world easier to understand and to provide protection from things not understood. That all of these stories share those features makes them (from my perspective) have far more in common than they have separating them.

Trying to force right-handedness on kids was practiced in public schools, too. As far as I know, it went out of favor mid-century...maybe a little earlier. But it wasn't limited to Catholic schools.

When I was 17, I TOLD my mom that I was like a spring and she was like a big thumb compressing that spring and holding it down and that on my 18th birthday...she would lose any right to make any decisions about my life and that she OUGHT TO let me grow up slowly instead of waiting until she had no power. She didn't believe me. My birthday is on the 13th of the month. On the first, a friend and I rented an apartment. The weekend before my birthday, I moved all my stuff out of the house. On the 12th, I left for work in the morning (I had graduated from high school very young and had a full time job and actually made more money than she did) and told her I wouldn't be home that night. She told me that legal curfew was at 10:00 p.m. I told her that at midnight, I was beyond the age of curfew, which mean all I had to do was hide for two hours. I did; I went home to my apartment a little past midnight and--I'm now sorry to say--she cried herself to sleep for many weeks. Kids do what they need to do to be able to grow up and be themselves...it's merely a matter of time.

I love "fat insults"...from a guy with whatever that is on his head. [ame=http://youtube.com/watch?v=xGZaCnfNgLE]YouTube - DONALD TRUMP VS. ROSIE[/ame]

sherrijo, We all have different ideas of what is "good" and what is "not so good" and all that. I don't know what your basis for comparison is...but, have you ever been to a site like www.epodunk.com ? You visit and enter the name of your town and see how it "measures up." When I put my town in--because there is a very high income area and a very low income area...it kind of lands on the national average on incomes. I noticed that Paducah's average income is below that average. I like that almost 40% of the population in my town over the age of 25 has a 4-year college degree. I can compare crime rates where I live with the rest of the country. I am REALLY not suggesting that there is anything wrong with Paducah...my husband comes from upriver and I know the area and it's lovely...and our daughter was born across the state, but also in KY. I AM suggesting that from YOUR viewpoint things may appear better (or worse?) than they really are. Maybe you have neighbors across town who aren't doing so well. Maybe more people could be in college...maybe more people than you think are not earning as much as it might appear that they are. And, when the rest of the folks in town aren't doing as well as they might, we all aren't doing as well as we might. Again, I'm not bashing your part of the world. I don't know what the stats were ten years ago. Maybe things are the same; maybe they are now phenominally better; maybe the data on epodunk is old. BTW, I get what you're saying about gas prices in Europe. We lived there thirty years ago and I swear we paid more for gas then than most of the US does now. But is DOES make me wonder how that can be that Europeans pay so much more than we do and still make ends meet. Is our desire to get that cheap gas costing us American lives in the Middle East? I think it is and would rather pay double for gas and have those kids back. Maybe others think we somehow deserve cheaper gas and that the deaths in Iraq had nothing to do with oil. We are like blind men describing the elephant from what we can feel in front of us...we all look at the same data and see totally different things. Very likely, none of us is 100% right.

I'm not the spokesperson for Italian-Americans here, but I didn't have to profess to believe in any creed or course of behavior to be an Italian-American. I just AM. I think the point was that people who profess to be following a loving and merciful God can exemplify the opposite of love and mercy while expounding on the glory of iiving a life influenced by the loving and merciful God. And I got tuned in to religious differences early on because our parents were told by our church to limit our interactions to playing only with other Catholic children AND my entire "Blue Bird Group" was told to go to confession because we had sinned by attending a Christmas Service--with other Blue Bird Groups--at a local Methodist Church. Yup...I must have been seven or eight at the time. BIG sinner.

Eloquent. Thank you.

You might want to try it yet again...never give up and all. It was not my intention to imply that because Christians are outnumbered by non-Christians, they cannot be correct. That would be an odd position--certainly not one I'd take--coming from an atheist.

Let's give credit where credit is due, gadgetlady. I am the one who said that there are more non-Christians...YOU are the one who said "therefore the Christians can't be right." Paranoid a little?

Hell in a handbasket is a FUTURE threat? mysherrijo...how is this president protecting you now? What is he doing for your life, your career, your children, your security, your retirement? I ask because he's not doing squat on my behalf...and I wonder what his supporters--the few who are left--think it is that he's doing well.

Well, I paid around ten grand for my band, plus the other adjustment expenses. My insurance paid to take it out because it was messing up my esophagus. I didn't want the RnY, but insurance paid for the DS. Answer? I wouldn't want either one. Now that I have a year of the DS under my belt, I'm very satisfied.

Me? I don't think I'd ever flame anyone for telling me what they believe. I'd flame someone for telling me that what they believe is the only possible way to think and that everyone else will be lost in an eternal micro-convection oven. And I'd also flame someone for making a statement that they seem to think is true when all the evidence in the world points to the opposite conclusion. And then, maybe I'd...well...at least we know why no one ever asks ME to be the moderator. Funniest (to me) part of all of this is that I used to be very quiet and very private about my regligious/areligious beliefs. Even my Army dogtags said "declines to state" under religion, instead of the more in-your-face "atheist." But then I went to this (nice, quiet, pacifist) Quaker school and , of all places, THAT's where I learned to speak up on this issue...essentially, a religious school made me an out-of-the-closet atheist. Strange, I think.

Beef is our national meat, but in certain areas, pork takes precedence. This is how I know: When my mom (west coaster) talks about "a roast," it is a beef roast she is discussing, and if she meant "pork," she'd say "pork roast." When my MIL said "roast," she was talking about pork roast and we knew that because she would otherwise say "beef roast." One was the dasughter of a butcher, the other was married to one...so they BOTH thought that THEIR way was the right one. LOL

We should have gone with Raytheon and Boeing... just kidding

I can't think of many places Christian missionaries haven't ventured forth...and yet, five out every six people on this planet are NOT Christians. (Give or take a million or so in either direction.) If we assume that a billion people have not yet received the word, that still leaves four billion people who are NOT going to make the team. It amazes me that a billion people (give or take) are so self-righteous in their belief that FOUR billion others have simply got it all wrong. If they are right...it's probably a party I'd rather not attend anyway. If they are wrong because their interpretation was wrong, I wonder how severely they'll be judged...relative to how they judge others. If they're wrong because all there REALLY is, is a guy behind a curtain, then it will all have been much ado about nothing. I wonder how so many people--especially the fundamentalist Christians and Muslims, because to me, there IS no major difference--can so truly believe in things for which there is not now (nor has there ever been) a shred of proof to be had...but if that's what gets them through the cold winter nights.

Carlene grew up eating tuna sanwiches leaking from the wax paper wrapper in her lunch pail...NOT a Baptist. Oh, wait...that was me. I read here somewhere that she has Baptist friends! Maybe that's where the confusinon lies.

So, Pam, that definition of who cannot be pardoned would cover most of the world's population, right?

Holiday sales? You mean credit card purchases? Great for stockholders, but how about the poor schmucks who are hoping to find a way to pay for this later? Maybe they can get one of those minimum wage jobs at the mall...the ones with no insurance benefits. Home ownership is at record numbers...and so are foreclosures. http://www.bizjournals.com/birmingham/stories/2006/12/11/daily7.html?from_rss=1 I already SAID my stocks were doing fine. But I invested (small amounts) in companies that I felt would do well and they have paid out 85% in the last two or three years. I got VERY lucky. And, while the percentage is good...the amounts are tiny. I know a lot of people and I only know one day trader (he doesn't like that term) who really counts on his skill in stock trades to produce income. My GREAT results in investments netted us whopping 1% increase in income for the year.

Wheetsin, Back in the dark ages, when I attended Catholic school, the "party line" was that anyone who had been exposed to the truth (as defined by the Catholic Church) and rejected it would suffer eternal damnation and all, whereas the few remaining people on the planet who had NOT heard the truth (in those days, we spoke of the people in the Soviet Union who were not allowed access and as-yet-undiscovered jungle people) would not be considered sinners. But that was the olden times.

Please excuse the redundancy in the above two replies. While Carlene and I do not agree on everything, there are SOME issues that almost defy disagreement.

Oh, my... Well, you're certainly in a minority there...history will judge him as one of the worst...in contention with Buchanan and Andrew Johnson. No. Almost anyone with a brain bigger than his ego could have done a better job. Bush DID NOT LISTEN TO HIS OWN EXPERTS. He had his own agenda. HE IS SURE THAT GOD IS TELLING HIM WHAT TO DO...so were the guys flying those planes into the Pentagon and WTC. I have to guess you have missed some of the finer points of the facts about the war. So, for the record...IRAQ HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH 9/11. SADDAM HUSSIEN HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH 9/11. Bush kept SAYING they were related, and, judging by your comments, some people STILL believe that to be the case, even though Bush has now stated that IRAQ HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH 9/11, and SADDAM HUSSEIN HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH 9/11. The ONLY people who believed that Iraq and Saddam had anything to do with the terrorists attacks here are the people who believed Dubya. The intelligence community did to believe it nor did Bush himself. He just lied and the naive believed and some apparently still believe him. But a poorly planned war, isn't it? How will YOU know that we "won?" I mean, before you go to war, you set a goal..."we'll take over the capital" or "we'll destroy the city" or "we'll kill the king," kind of thing. So when you declare "war" on terrorism (or evil or sins or crime or poverty or drugs, etc)...what event happens that allows you to decalre a victory? In other words...this "war" has been unwinnable from the get-go. Osama bin Laden is a God fearing Muslim who prays regularly and ask God's guidance for his decisions. (You see any parallels there?) Okay, now this is just BIZARRE! When Clinton left office, we had a SURPLUS. Bush took that SURPLUS, blew it and has now landed your grandchildren in debt. No matter who is in office for the next several decades, taxpayers will be paying for this mess. Have my stocks gone up? Yes, they have. Considerably. Maybe I got lucky. Is the local Greek fast food place advertising for "Happy Help Wanted?" You bet...and they probably pay a full time person about $325 a week, at best. According to realtor dot com, the cheapest house for rent in this zip code is $3000 per month and the cheapest house for sale is listed at $675,000. I don't see how Bush's part time fast-food jobs are going to keep this ocuntry afloat.

When I was in HS, we were the first folks in the neighborhood to get a real-live in-ground swimming pool. Our neighbor girl--age 14--used to put on her two piece bathing suit, wrap a towel around herself and walk across the fairly small residential street to go swimming with us. Her grandmother--age 90--used to stand in the living room screaming that the child was a tramp and going outside naked. Grandma finally got moved "to the home."

Are you credentialed in some counseling profession? And do you also "work with" the women who endured unwanted pregnancies?

Pam... man-woman relationships in the middle east 2000 years ago were quite foreign to what we, in the US, understand today. Some of what we call rape, certainly was NOT considered rape in that time and in that place. I don't know how old you are, but I remember when the "does a man have the right to have sex with his wife when she doesn't feel like it" stuff first went to court in this country. So, it's only been a few years since that was NOT considered rape. "domestic violence" is also a relatively new term. Until quite recently, and even today in some parts of the world, a man OWNED his wife and could take liberties with any other woman, unless she belonged to some other man. So, while we may WANT TO BELIEVE that our version of right and wrong is an eternal truth, it's all pretty new. Women were property. They were given in marriage (sometimes traded) to whomever their father decided should have them. Then they had to have sex with the man chosen for them. Was that rape? To me it is. But we would have been laughed out of town--probably stoned and raped first--if we had suggested that 2000 years ago in the Middle East. In fact, if we had suggested that to my grandfather, who was paid some kind of dowry to marry my grandmother, back around 1912. She didn't love him or know him or have any choice in the matter at all. Her family transferred ownership from themselves to my grandfather. Was she raped? She probably thought so. So, did Jesus approve of "rape?" He certainly didn't do much in the equal rights arena...so we don't know. But we know that it didn't bother him enough to speak about it "on the record." I'm just suggesting that you might be assuming 21st Century western values were held by people who were NOT a part of our culture. I SAID that the early church called abortion wrong...and then okay...and then wrong and then okay. If I wanted to know what Christ said, however, I'd look to the Bible...and he said nothing. In fact the ONLY reference to induced abortion that I know of in the entire Bible is in Num 5: 11-27, wherein we are told that a woman suspected of adultery must drink a potion that will cause her belly to swell and bring about "the curse" and that if she wasn't unfaithful to her husband, no permanent harm will ensue...but if she was unfaithful, she will be rendered infertile. Deal is, this passage outlines a forced theraputic abortion to make sure she isn't carrying some other man's child. God's orders, or so they say. Please note, I did not say that Jesus was pro-abortion. I don't know of anyone, who is pro-abortion. I'm just saying that of all the things he spoke of and was quoted about...abortion (and rape) aren't mentioned. Othr things appear to have been far more worthy of discussion.

Uh...Pam? Just because you never considered something doesn't mean it is impossible. Think about it for a minute or two...last I heard, Christ was born and raised a Jew. In traditional Judaism, life begins when the child is born alive and takes its first breath. Just like the rest of the Jewish community in which he was raised, Christ probably thought nothing of the practice because IF HE HAD, it might be mentioned SOMEWHERE in the New Testament. We know he didn't like the money thing in the temple...or people casting stones at others, but there is not a word written about abortion...because it was just "women's business" and men mostly steered clear. In the early Catholic Church, as well, abortion was not just ignored...there were rules about how far into the pregnancy an abortion was permitted. There were different timelines for male or female fetuses...because the religious powers-that-be thought then (not unlike now) that they knew everything, they thought they knew how to determine the gender of the fetus. Whether abortion was right or wrong was debated in the early church...allowed, not allowed, allowed again...for centuries. For a while, it was "a little bad," as the penance for oral sex was seven years and the penance for abortion was 120 days. That was about 700 years after Christ died. In the 800's, Pope Steven said abortion is murder. But by the 1200's, the pope ruled that the monk who got his girlfriend an abortion wasn't guilty of anything because the fetus was not "animated." Then it moved to the "quickening" test. Then it was no abortions allowed. Then it was back to the quickening thing. Here's some information on abortion and Judaism: http://www.rossde.com/editorials/edtl_abortion_religion.html