GeezerSue

Hell, I'll have a party and they can ALL come and condemn me to eternal...whatever it is...that they can collectively agree upon in terms of damnation...the Gods, Allahs, Santa Clauses, Tooth Fairies, Flying Reindeer, Flying Horses, Translating Stones, Heavenly Fathers, Pastafarian Dudes, the North American Jewish Warlords and the Great Pumpkins. There is no god, there is no afterlife; when you die, you rot; there are no miracles, no angels and no Satans. Try to consider the concept that we are finite, there is no Big Brother in the sky, that shit happens whether you pray about it or not, and that you are being used...BOY are you being used...unless you are the one doing the using... MOST of the time, when trying to have an meaningful conversation with the anointed, I end up WISHING there were a God...one who believed in justice, because what a hoot THAT would be. But, alas and alack...it's just the short guy behind the curtain...

You want an INTELLIGENT discussion of an imaginary being? Okay..here--in ten minutes--is pretty good evidence that you are delusional: [ame=http://youtube.com/watch?v=HVuw1wEuaAQ]YouTube - How do we know that Christians are delusional?[/ame]

To me, the issue is what defines those "beautiful models." As long as they are in the store windows and the public thinks it's okay, the STORES are definfing beauty.

You apparently do not understand the role of the State DOE. And, you left out this part: HISTORY The Institute for Creation Research was first established in 1970 by Dr. Henry M. Morris. From the beginning, ICR’s mission has focused on research, media, and education in those fields of science particularly relevant to the study of origins. Originally formed as the research division of Christian Heritage College, ICR became autonomous in 1981. http://www.icr.org/discover/index/discover_history/ The California State Department of Education will approve almost ANY group's request to teach its own cult its own hogwash at its own schools. Why? Politics and the money/influence of rich, white Christians who have chosen either NOT to give to the poor or not to help them as much as they could help, because they need to save some of the money to make sure they are involved with the politicos so that their agenda can be promoted. Meanwhile, back in the real (scientific) world, the good folks at Stanford said: http://daily.stanford.edu/article/2006/2/17/opposeCreationism

BTW, Ron...since God is in charge of all this and since gluttony is a sin...why are you BOTHERING with a band? Why not just pray to stop sinning? Don't you trust God to fix it for you? I mean..faith and all....

So...did some ancient dog sin, too? My friend's dog had cancer, so I figured...

Bored? No. Amused? Yeah. Every day, about 27,000 kids are dying due to starvation. Your god hasn't gotten around to solving THAT little problem but has fixed your back pain and is working on your overeating issues. What a guy.

And here's a discussion of just that issue: http://tinyurl.com/2hz245

I feel like I'm on the kindergarten playground listening to kids argue about whose imaginary friend said what...

And your original phrase serves so well to cast you in the role of victim and those who disagree with you in the role of perpetrator, but I'm sure that never crossed your mind either. And "completed Jew?" How fucking condescending your friend sounds. :::Backing out of room, too busy watching water seeking its own level and all to turn around:::

So, man's free will was part of a perfect creation...even though the one creating it knew that man's exercise of free will would cause pain and suffering even to the most innocent? Not too perfect a plan, then, was it? You can't have it both ways. Here's a simpler explanation and one that DOES make sense. There is no God. Prayer is superstition. Man, primitive man, at that, created Gods to explain things he couldn't understand. People cling to a belief in the supernatural to help explain the things they can't understand and because they cannot deal with the notion that they have no control and that no one is in charge of what happens and when it's over, it's over.

So...he created Adam and Eve...and they were perfect and we were perfect and then Adam and Eve sinned and now we DESERVE to get AIDS and little children DESERVE cancer because Adam and Eve sinned...just the way God knew they would when he created them..so, the little kids never stood a chance, right?

Only in ambiguous situations. IOW, you have to believe that God can and will heal to come to the conclusion (faulty though it is) that God HAS healed. There are no unambiguous healings. I give you: http://www.whydoesgodhateamputees.com/god5.htm

Yup. That'll do it.

Victoriana...I'm sorry, but I see a WORLD of difference between telling a child to NOT do something and his choosing to do it anyway and getting a boo-boo that needs a band-aid and his doing it anyway and dying of AIDS...or, even, his doing NOTHING wrong and dying of a childhood-onset leukemia. Ron is saying that ALL of this is from his god. I'm missing the wisdom and the connections in "God is good," "God COULD fix stuff if he wanted to, that's why we pray to him and ask for recovery from disease and injury," and "The babies are dying but everything happens for a good reason." Samuel Clemens said, ""If there is a God, he is a malign thug."

Perhaps more prayer for the patience to deal with the unenlightened might be in order...otherwise, prayer for a career where everyone will agree with you from the get-go might be a good choice. Meanwhile, zealots are zealots...whether they call themselves Christian or Taliban.

Boy, Heather! You have been through the grinder with your band. But my experiences in observing which wls surgery is the most effective don't match yours. Mine more closely match what all the medical research says. A group of us--about 40-50 wls patients--got together a couple of years ago. Someone asked, "Which ones had the DS?" I--inadvertantly, because I was still banded--said, "Just look around...it's the skinny bitches." And it was. I've been researching wls since about the time you were banded and I haven't met anyone--not one person--who had a DS and was unhappy with the way the surgery had performed. I *DID* encounter a person with a drug and alcohol problem who returned to drugs and alcohol and regained about 50 pounds, but even she didn't regain everything. OTOH, many of the banded people I know have had to have revisions and many are still MO, even after years of trying to make the band work for them. I really think that, especially for someone who has had all the problems you have had, your success is really outside the normal range of results. But bravo to you for achieving it! Sue

I thought so...I just wish I knew who the hell Roberts is/was. He's quoted on several sites...

So, Ron...what makes YOUR conservative religious beliefs any different than the conservative religious beliefs of, say, the Taliban? And before you answer, you might want to consider the words of Stephen F. Roberts, who said: I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.

So...YOUR God created man in his image and likeness, considers mankind his children and then punishes them with the likes of AIDS? I wouldn't hang out with ANYONE who treated their kids that way...but you go ahead and take your walks with whomever you please.

Yup...my VA meds --provided to me as part of my "free medical care for life" deal--have a copay three times the copay of my huband's medical insurance. (And, btw, the VA bills my medical insurance for any service I receive there. The only reason I don't have to be poor is that I have a service connected disability.)

I, too, live a fairly moral life...I haven't staple-gunned kittens to any fence posts...I don't blow up doctors when I hear voices (well, I don't actually hear voices, but if I did)...haven't stood outside clinics telling people they'll burn in hell because they disagree with me...haven't sent any kids off to foreign lands to kill or be killed so that my buddies can make a buck...haven't believed or said that AIDS is a just punishment from God...haven't robbed any banks, that kind of thing. I wonder how you think you know what atheists have experienced, though. Could be we're just as happy as you are and don't need validation through some external locus of control. But, since Christians haven't experienced the true atheistic life, you'll never know. Oh, and if I were to drop dead tonight, I'd probably regret the time and money I gave to the hucksters in the name of God...but I outgrew that shit early on, so I don't have THAT much to be sorry for.

I can take a stab at it... We realists already get it. Let's DO talk about the madrassas. The funding for the Wahhabi madrassas comes from Saudi Arabia. You remember the Saudis? The friends of the Bush family? THEY pay for these exported, fanatic, Mini-West Point training camps. (In my background, they were less militant, unarmed and called seminaries.) They got a good start in training poor Pashtun kids to go to war with the old Soviet Union when THEY thought it was brilliant to go to Afghanistan. All they've done recently is change their cast of "bad guys" and spread out to more areas of operation. Maybe is has something to do with who has most recently invaded their lands. Funny how that connection keeps popping up. Unless some other fools invaded them after we left. Then THEY would move to the head of the list. Deal is, the alternative to backing out of the fight is to wipe out every Muslim on the planet and take over all Muslim lands. We can't leave any Muslims in place or they'll eventually turn into "insurgents," occupied people almost always resort to THAT ruse. We need to get out. We need to leave the Middle East to the Middle East. They don't need the "crusading" (his word, not mine) jerk in the White House or any other leader of a Christian Nation bulldozing their way into Muslim countries to help. Our values in this country are heavily informed by the values of the (mostly) Christians who founded this land. Muslims in Muslim lands have values based on the values THEIR religion promotes. Having us there is not only AS insulting as having a bunch of Muslims decide I shouldn't go out of the house with bare arms or drive a car or let my hair show...it is, to them, even WORSE...because "defending the faith" is as integral to their belief system as "sharing the body and blood of Christ" is in most Christian religions. You can't take communion out of the Christian religions that practice it and you can't take "defending the faith" out of the Muslim belief system. And (at the risk of repeating myself), our going there to impart our values on their religious practices (because their religion is in every part of their day) is never going to be okay. We agree there...that's why I NEVER liked Bush, even after 9/11. Do you include all the media throught the world as being involved in this vast conspiracy to which you allude? We get the most sanitized news in the world. We don't even see what we are doing to others and what we have done to our own. No. I don't want my media serving as cheerleaders for the White House. They did that in WWII (Democrat in the White House) and that's why Japanese Americans were robbed of their homes and possessions and sent off to camps in the desert...and hardly anyone said a word. And, btw, that was a war in which we were attacked by another country and where we knew where to retaliate, so there was a chance of winning. The Geneva Conventions--at least the ones I had to learn about when I was in the Army--did not apply to going to "war" against "bad ideas and practices." They would not apply to a "war on evil" or a "war on meanness" or a "war on bad manners." They apply to warring NATIONS. We are not warring against a nation. We are fighting terrorism. (Brilliant.) Declaring a vague war on terrorism (which, of course, can NEVER be won) makes every man, woman and child on the planet who gets in your (philosophical) way a target. I'm tired now...but I'll work more later. But, I'd suggest a subscription to Mother Jones for the time being.

We Vets have somewhat mouthier lobbyists.

NOW he wants us to pay income tax on our employer-provided medical benefits. Smooth move, Dubya. The proposal will include: -- A standard deduction for health insurance -- singles with health insurance will not pay income or payroll taxes on the first $7,500 -- Families with health insurance will not pay income or payroll taxes on the first $15,500 -- Health insurance should be considered taxable income, including those who currently have health insurance through their employment The result, says Bush, will be that 80% of people with health cover will pay less tax. So, before I retired, I had insurance that, when I converted to COBRA and had to pay it myself, cost me about $750/month. (And that was five years ago, so we know it's gone up.) That means that the folks I was working with would now be paying income tax on another $1500/year with no increase of any kind in any benefits. http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/healthnews.php?newsid=61278