Alexandra

I believe she said she mocks "FANATIC FUNDAMENTALISTS OF ANY STRIPE, because they are dangerous and stupid." It's abundantly clear from your posts that you are not a fanatic. Of any stripe. :biggrin1:

Simmer down, simmer down. I'm calling Sue on her tone--Sue, PLEASE refrain from making directly attacking remarks to other members. That really is uncalled for and unwelcome. Thank you. Ron, once again I'd like to observe to you that you are reacting to people's comments in a wholly unreasonable way. It seems to me that you take anyone's critique of the Bible or Christianity personally, and once you take umbrage the whole cycle starts again. You can say anything you like about atheism and I won't bat an eyelash. I get that it's not your cup of tea. And you know what? THAT'S ALL RIGHT WITH ME. Why can't you let others' belief systems be all right with you? Why do you have to defend Jesus? This conversation will continue to take these unpleasant turns unless you can allow others to express their feelings and not take it personally.

T-O-M, I'm a fan, too. Your posts are wonderful. :clap2: :clap2:

Do I have to throw water on you people?!? Please, please, please stop calling one another names and being outright rude. This thread is lots of fun and very interesting, but if passions get too heated we'll have to lock it. Don't make me come over there!

Yowza. :omg: Gadgetlady, thanks for recalling that phrase. In the future, I think the word "flamed" will do nicely to describe the phenomenon you have in mind.

Just popping in to remind everyone that personal attacks are not welcome, even in this forum. As a rule of thumb, if you're going to criticize someone else's posting style, please think twice. Debate the ideas, not the people. Kirk out.

Thanks for your reiterations of the joke, TOM. I was thinking the same thing but was too lazy to make the observation. It's a funny joke, but the Judaism (of the parrot? of the family?) is irrelevant. I don't get it.

I agree with everyone else, that the less-invasive nature of the band made it much more attractive to me. If banding had not been an option, I doubt very much I'd have pursued any sort of bariatric surgery. With two small children I was just not willing to take the risks inherent in such drastic surgery. It seems to me that with enough research, the choice for any given person becomes clear. Both surgeries have things to recommend them, but the patient's priorities, lifestyle, medical condition, and history all have to be considered. It MUST be the patient's decision, no one else's. Once your mind is made up and your choice is clear to you, the challenge is sticking to your guns to make it happen--that might mean working with negative nurses, insurance people, HR departments, whatever obstacles are in your path. I speak from experience--I fought for almost a year to make Aetna cover my band, and I've been told I was the first person in America to win on appeal against their standard policy. Bypass purposefully creates a situation in the body wherein things don't work as they were intended to, a situation where an unnaturally small number of calories and nutrients are absorbed. This is, literally, malnutrition that I'd face for the rest of my life. My goal was to improve my health, not create a condition I'd have to manage forever just so I don't suffer what could be serious ill effects. The band, though it requires more attention by way of adjustments and so forth, only does one thing: continually teaches me how to eat less. And that's all I personally need to lose weight. Nothing else about the way my body works has been altered, and since it has always worked pretty well I wanted to keep it that way.

BJean, once again we are on the same wavelength.

Victoriana, that's the way to talk about your faith. What a beautiful post! Clearly you've found meaning in your faith and it's improved your life. Thank you for sharing in such a thoughtful way. Geezer, I've loved that quote for a long time. Thanks for bringing it back to my attention!!

I agree that a comfortable seat makes all the difference, especially in the beginning. Don't skimp! If it makes the difference between your biking and your NOT biking, spend what you need to on the comfortable seat. You don't need a new bike, you need a new SEAT.

[Emphasis mine.] I've heard this point of view many times, indeed, but fail to see any merit in it. If belief is just picked up because it seems like the best wager, it's not real. And how can it be meaningful if it's not real? What sort of deity wants followers to pay lip service "just in case" it's going to benefit them? Opening one's heart to religious belief, and then having it come in, is one thing. That is a personal experience no one else can question. But simply choosing to say "I believe" because it's the "safer" thing to do would just make me a hypocrite. And that's one of the very worst things about religion in general--the way it encourages hypocrisy.

That is a great point to raise if anyone finds themselves in the position fo trying to talk their employer into adding coverage for bariatric surgery to the company policy. Plans like that are either self-funded or experience-rated, which means claim activitiy really affects future rates. Band surgery costs a lot less than a lifetime of care for someone with uncontrolled morbid obesity and all the other issues that can arise.

I love sushi in a big way but since banding have learned to love sashimi and stay away from the rolls altogether. Rice just takes up too much room in my tummy--two bites fills me up--and the seaweed has gotten stuck and given me the worst PB I ever had. Sashimi is the perfect bandster food, though. The ultimate lean, tender Protein. :biggrin1:

Vickie's right, all of the deferred salary contributions you have made to your 401K is your money, period. Your job is not on the line. (Contributions your employer has made to the fund may not be yours, yet; that depends on your vesting schedule.) If you withdraw all the money you contributed you'll have to pay income taxes plus a penalty, but no one can tell you it's not your money or that your job hangs in the balance. And you don't have to pay it back if you're willing to take the tax/penalty hit. Talk to your HR person and if they give you any of that line, go to someone else. It's absolutely not true.

Oh my, what a tragedy. My heart and thoughts to out to this family and everyone affected. I hope they find strength and comfort, and that boy heals quickly. :cry

What your health plan covers is strictly determined by YOUR contract, Annakris, so you need to find out WHY the customer service rep says it's not covered. Is it an exclusion on your plan? Is all bariatric surgery excluded, or just banding? Is all weight-management treatment excluded, even if it's medically necessary for the treatment of morbid obesity? You really have to find out what your contract actually says before you can determine whether there's any point in trying to get surgery covered. If it's an across-the-board exclusion on your husband's plan, there's probably little you can do.

Thank you. Ignore what makes you bristle. That's generally the best approach. Message board arguments take two, but it only takes one to say "I'm done."

Honestly, no, it doesn't make any sense. There are loads of belief systems out there that I can't accept for me (yours, for example), but I fully accept that it works for the people who embrace it. Have you ever heard the phrase "more power to you"? That's what I say when I see people doing things that I think would be destructive for me, but that they feel is acceptable to them. I leave them to it, and let them enjoy. That doesn't mean I don't care about them--rather, it means I DO care about them and what makes THEM happy. So you believe that happiness, health, and peace can only come from a relationship with God. I am glad you've found what gives you those things. Can't you say the same to me?

I accept that you believe you are acting kindly and sending nothing but good thoughts. What it comes across as is condescending and patronizing, since my beliefs are not damaging to myself or anyone else. There is nothing loving about wishing someone would change in a way that pleases you. I'd be much more convinced of your sincere heart if you were to say you'll pray that I'll find happiness, health, and peace. But your praying that I'll find your God? That says to me that you don't care about me at all.

Ron, I'm just curious. How would you feel if I were to say that I wish you the best, yet hope with all my heart that you will someday look at these things differently? Can you not see the negativity in that? Your respecting and accepting that I believe differently than you should be the end of it. There is no reason whatsoever for you to pray that I have a change of heart and come to accept YOUR credo. My beliefs cause no one harm and satisfy me fully. Can we leave it at that, and part friends?

Thank you, BJean! :wave:

There are lots of things that may or may not be true that I can't spend my entire life investigating. There are only so many hours in a day, after all, and my days are pretty busy. My priority is the here and now, not the hereafter. Your sense that eternal life is in the balance is what motivates YOU, it doesn't motivate me. And "factually proven true" seems to be in the eye of the beholder--clearly we all have different standards of proof. I go with what the scientific community holds to be provable, explicable, grounded in the scientific method. Recorded history is notoriously subjective--being written by the winners and all. All of it (before modern recording methods were invented) is inflected with huge amounts of personal and cultural bias, almost to the point of being fiction. Useful, enlightening, fascinating, indeed, but not something to use as a roadmap for my life. We should learn from our history, think critically about it, not live our lives as though we're still in it. The existence of a popular and influential teacher 2000 years ago speaks not at all to my life in the 21st century. It seems to me that going into Bible study with an intent to prove or disprove is a pretty all-encompassing endeavor. And it can only ever be done to the seeker's satisfaction; any arguments based on such study will prove persuasive only to those who are seeking as well. I did my investigating early in life, and reached my conclusion based on information, time, experience, and personal instinct. I'd like nothing more than for everyone to be able to say the same.

See, I completely accept that what you say is felt to be the heartfelt truth for believers such as yourself. That's why I completely respect your feelings and right to embrace them. But it just is not convincing to me; I've never felt the stirrings of religious feeling inside me and have no fear of eternal suffering since I don't believe in an everlasting soul. I can't buy in to the idea of salvation since I don't believe in sin. I've thought about it, meditated on it, have experienced many life-changing events in my life in which other people might have found an impetus to a religious awakening. From time to time I've even wanted to belong, wanted to believe, wanted to be comforted by it. But in the end none of it rang true, spoke to me personally, or answered any unfilled need in my life. And thanks, but I think my priorities are in fine order as they are. The benefits of belonging to a worship community can be real, sure, but they can be found in other sorts of communities as well (such as that of bandsters, mothers, friends, or whomever we find commonality with). And for every person who enjoys and is benefited by their association with a religion, I'd wager there is someone else who has had their life made smaller or in some other way damaged by their or their parents' or teachers' adherence to a strict belief system. (That's their current life here, on earth, the only one I believe exists.) And when all is said and done, I believe more harm has been done in the name of religion than any other force in human history. A good reason to keep it at arms' length, IMO. And it's spelled ATHEIST, btw.

I didn't mean Jesus would have altered his actions, but rather the people in the environment into which he was born. A society that believes a Messiah is on the way is always looking for someone to fill the bill. And people who are told they are special enough times can come to believe it. Self-fulfilling prophecies don't prove anything. Clearly you are more well-versed than I in the particulars of these writings; I don't claim to be a scholar of the Bible. But I maintain it was mostly written after the fact and what you read as prophesy I see as embellished history. None of it points me, personally, to make any sort of leap to believing in a deity. Nor do I see any reason why it should, why my life would be improved in any way. You asked why we are atheists. Speaking for myself, I can't see any reason NOT to be.