Alexandra

We are accountable to ONE ANOTHER, Pattygreen. That's what my children are being taught and they are growing up to be lovely, responsible, thoughtful kids. Their school is doing a great job of rewarding kindness and encouraging a great work and civic ethic and guess what? God doesn't have anything to do with it. The narrow-mindedness that teaches the ultimate moral code exists in a book, rather than in our human condition, is really scary to me. Not everyone buys the magical thinking in your favorite book. But we are all human, without exception, and in that condition can we find our shared responsibility to one another.

Generally speaking if your BMI is under 40 you will have to show a couple of "co-morbidities" to be considered eligible. sleep apnea is definitely one, and your doctor may be able to find others in your bloodwork. Don't give up if your insurance denies you the first time. You'll probably have to appeal, maybe even more than once, but it's certainly possible to be approved at your BMI. Good luck!

What do you say to those who have no belief in God? America's system of government is not "majority rules," so those percentages mean nothing. In this country, minorities are protected--including the atheists.

Here's a link to online OA meetings. There are several every day. OA - 12 Steps for Compulsive Overeaters (COEs)

No, I don't have to admit that at all. The population was a mere fraction of what it is today, but complete lawlessness was the rule in many places. Where on earth do you get the idea there was far less crime??

Huh? When were these crime-free "olden days" you so fondly cite?

It's absolutely laughable to claim the America of days gone by was somehow more "moral" than today. The "sins" may have been different and the media spotlight didn't exist the way it does today so it may have been easier to ignore, that's all. There were no hidden cameras or bugged offices. Wake up: Bill Clinton was in no way the first president to use the Oval Office for illicit dalliances, you know. He was just unlucky enough to get caught. Really, if anyone thinks America's history of slaughtering native peoples, slavery, child labor, voting inequity, political corruption on massive scales, and all the rest constitute a higher moral ground just because there may have been a morning prayer in the public schools...well, I have no words. False piety has been used to cover up appalling behavior from time immemorial--it's high time we look to some other code of morality.

America has not turned its back on God at all. What about those surveys that consistently find America to be one of the most religious populations out there? More Americans believe in a Divine than don't. But you're ticked because America doesn't claim YOUR God to be the one for everyone. And America doesn't use YOUR Bible as the basis for its civil laws. You're not talking about God or the Divine at all. You're talking about a code of behavior that you find written in your favorite book. And since you find truth and safety in it, you want to force others to live the same way. Sorry, but this country protects its citizens' right to read other books. In this country, thanks to our Founders, one's relationship with the Divine of his or her understanding can be a private thing. They deliberately set out to ensure that remains the case via the First Amendment. No one gropup gets to call the shots. Our laws MUST be based on the commonalities we share in our HUMANITY, not religion. I'm truly glad that you find so much certainty and comfort in your beliefs, Pattygreen, and you should be glad that your country allows you to publicly profess them. In many places that's not the case.

Yeah, Kartman, there's no undoing the tangled web we weave... :cursing:

Pattygreen, I must say I admire your persistence. That's a nice story you spin there about the angels and the demons. And if you look around, you'll find parallels in many other mythologies throughout history. The human condition leads us to invent rules to govern conflicts and want to live forever. It doesn't make me nauseated, it makes me sad. When I hear that kind of talk I just wonder where the rational person went.

Kartman's right. People worship the Divine in all sorts of ways, many with elaborate mythologies and stories shoring up the basic tenets, but just as many without. What does it matter what they're "named"? You said: ...which is, actually, self-contradictory. Which is it? A relationship with God or a faith in Jesus? And in any event, you started this thread by saying that the US has lost its way by not expecting its citizens to live by a Christian code. That sounds a lot like you think Christianity actually DOES require something of its followers.

I'm not knocking anyone, Beth. I'm saying what have found to be the case, that many people profess to a religion simply because it's what they were brought up with. They may never have really examined their own feelings and beliefs, but go through their entire lives simply parroting what they were taught. Depending on the social order, they may go through their whole lives not even knowing they could think for themselves about religion. That's one effect of a state-mandated religion, and why it comes perilously close to brainwashing. I daresay these are the people least likely to get into conversations like this one, though. :sad: In any event, I'm not knocking the fact of belief or anyone who embraces any particular religion. All I ask is that everyone grant everyone else the freedom to choose for themselves. That is to say--keep it out of the social order.

My band slipped and had to be removed two years ago. There was never any cause diagnosed for the slip, but my discomfort dated from a terrible allergy attack that resolved in to major coughing fits for days on end. I finally had to get narcotic cough meds from my PCP to wipe it out, but by then I guess the damage was done. I think it's more common for there NOT to be a definitive cause for a slip, though.

There are many faiths that consist of little more than a relationship with a Divine Being. They may or may not incorporate a "saviour" mythology, and they may or may not have many facets in common with one another. Do you acknowledge them as being equally "real" as your own?

Could you "choose" tomorrow to stop loving your husband or your children? You could choose to behave as though you have stopped, but could you really just make the choice to stop? I know lots of people, myself included, who have sincerely tried to feel this magical belief so many people claim to have, without success. I maintain that it is not a choice at its most basic level. Professing faith in a religion is a choice...actually having it is not. Humans are easily suggestible, though. I don't think many people really examine their feelings closely enough in the matter of religion. They swallow what they have been taught without really thinking about it.

I don't think one can "decide" to believe, not really. One has it or one doesn't. People can sincerely seek and seek and pray and pray and still come away not believing. You could just as easily say that faith is a biological feature present in some brains and absent in others. Some are disposed to "hear the message" and others won't--can't--no matter how hard they try. This can change over a lifetime in either direction. And somewhere in the middle are all those who are easily persuaded or coerced by other humans to claim allegiance to some group or other and never actually "hear" anything at all. My guess is that the last group is the largest.

Very well said, Kartman. :grouphug: No, I did not ignore your post. As I stated, those statements are statements of opinion, while what actually made it into the Bill of Rights forms the pillars of our country. Our Founders exercised truly extraordinary wisdom by making absolutely sure no religion found its way into our system of government. You are welcome to believe what you want. The absolutely beautiful thing about this country is that everyone is free to do the same thing. And it has nothing to do with morality. Some of the least moral societies in history have been motivated by a belief in Christ.

Yeah, it's a little hard to take someone seriously who takes that sort of tone. :thumbup:

I'm curious--do you include Muslims? And did God intend the great country of America to be and remain a slave nation?

Sorry, the government was NEVER "Christian." It simply wasn't. Those statements are expressions of opinion that are, of course, protected by our First Amendment. They don't and never have had the force of law, courtesy of that same First Amendment. And no, of course it wouldn't be appropriate for atheism to be mandated any more than any other belief system. "Congress shall make no law respecting the establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof..." Couldn't really be clearer than that, could it?

And thank goodness for it! Pattygreen, America is what it is in spite of all the statements you posted above. Our country protects those who don't ascribe to a specific religion, or any at all. Would you really want it any other way?

Thanks, BJean. Since I found out she was ill I've been thinking of her a lot. She will be missed indeed. :thumbup:

No one is stopping us, true. No one is FORCING us, also true. The latter is what our founders intended, in their infinite wisdom, and it's one of America's most vital principles. Cleo's Mom said it very well.

Charming, pattygreen. Thank you, from all the American Jews, Hindus, Muslims, Pagans, atheists and whomever else I have forgotten. How do you explain violence committed in the name of religion? Corruption, theft, abuse, and murder committed in the name of Christ?

Hi Alex! Your IP Address is: 68.193.11.187 Our database shows the following information for this IP: * Country: US * State: NJ * City: RINGWOOD * Zip: 07456 Actual info: * Country: US * State: NJ * City: Boonton * Zip: 07005 Ringwood is just a bit (12 mi?) north of here.