Ron Cusano

There is no question in my mind, just like there is no question in my mind regarding what I believe. And that is sincere!

My grandkids don't play games like that, but I got the point. Think what you want! I know what my intentions were and so does God. You want to think otherwise, knock yourself out!

Idiots! If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck, it's a duck! Or should I say Quack Quack?? I never said those things but that's apparently what you got from it. Yeah, you were offended by the message alright! And naw, I won't curse back at you. I can express myseld without it.

Nah! You havn't gotten under my skin at all. I just consider the source! I really hoped to have serious discussion about a serious subject here, and a few folks were very able to participate. Some were not, and I guess that includes you. I suspect that if I got under the skin of some people, it was that they really didn't want to hear what I was saying, rather than being offended by who was saying it. If I offended someone personally, it was not intentional. You, on the other hand, had the goal of personally offending me, which says an awful lot about what you are all about. If you are that shallow, I pity you!

TRUE! But sometimes that is difficult when you are being attacked.

I can and do! If that is your thing, as you say, more power to you. That aside, I would like to say something to you, since you are a moderator. On this board I have met several avowed athiests, and a few, like yourself and Green have managed to have an intelligent exchange, even though we disagree on so much. If we met in person, we might even like each other. I have been critized by many as being argumenative and condecending, and yet, it is perfectly OK for others to act like bottom feeders and cast disparaging remarks about me. For instance, this BJean character. I am trying real hard to be civil in the face of continuing hostility from a few idiots. So, in your opinion, what would be an approiate way to deal with idiots who keep throwing barbs.

This was not addressed to me so I won't respond directly. All I can say is if it walks like an idiot, and talks like an idiot, . . .

BJean, Alexandra and I are having an intelligent and caring exchange without any dispursions of any kind. We have agreed to disagree. We are talking about how we feel without casting stones. So what is your problem! You make a big deal about how you think I am condesending and looking for arguments, but you just don't stop. If you want to have a simular exchange of ideas on an intelligent level, let's do it. If you want to get into a pissing match, you will find that you have more then met your match. How about we keep this civil and stop with the barbs.

I do pray that you will find happiness, health and peace, but with what I believe, that can only truly come from a relationship with God. This is not condescending and patronizing, or at least not intended to be, but a true reflection of who I am and what I believe. Please don't take it as a negative. If you saw someone doing somthing that YOU regarded as being destructive, even if they did not see it that way, wouldn't it be a good thing for you to wish that they would act in a different manner? Would you really be demonstrating a caring heart if you did less? Believing what I do, I would be a hypocrite not to want to see you believe differently. I can accept you and wish you the best as a person, but it's the belief system I can't accept. Does that make any sense??

I never said that was not how I felt, and I do accept full responsibility for everything I say. I felt like people were coming at me from all directions on the attack, and that expression was right on the money. It was not directed at any particular person, and I make no apoligy for it.

Yes, I believe that we can part as friends. Since what I believe, if true, would mean sever ramifacations for those that don't believe, my remarks to you were out of concern from a sincere heart. Can you accept that?

I said what I meant using a common expression and I know all who responded were not athiests, so I don't understand what you are trying to convey here. Please explain! When you say I made personal beliefs the issue, if you mean by me asking a moderator about labeling herself as the "token athiest", then yes, giulty as charged.

Although I completely disagree with how you feel, I can accept and respect that you do. There is little more that I can add. We can argue intelliectually untill the cows come home but it is up to you to either accept or reject the claims of Christ, and at this point in time, you seem to have your mind made up. I thi8nk that any further persuasion on my part will be falling on deaf ears, so I won't belabor the point. I won't try to twist your arm. That's not my job! I wish you the best and will pray that someday you will look at these things differently. If I can ever be of any help with understand anything about the Word of God, I hope that you would feel comfortable to contact me. God bless!

There is one thing we agree on! More harm has been done in the name of religion unfortunately, but it has been done by people who did what they did in defference to the supposed spititual convictions. They didn't practice what the preached; an indication that perhaps they never believed at all. I too was never inspired by a strong urge or feelings to embrace faith. I saw all the hyprocicy and phonyness and concluded that there could not be a God. I too thought that my life and priorities were just fine. At the time, I was self-employed and doing well, had a wife, children, owned my oen home, plenty of friends . . . what did I need with religion! Someone challanged me about the Bible and I decided to investigate with an open mind, with the intent to prove this person to be wrong, and a fraud. What I found suprised me. In face it shocked me. Even thought i felt I did not want or need religion, if what I found was really true, then I had better accept it. To me, not accepting something that was true, was little more that denial. How could I not embrace something that could factually be proven true. I hear everything you are saying because I have been there, and I respect your right to believe or not believe as you choose. I believe that true Christianity can be embraced intelligently rather that emotionally. I want to challange you too, to explore the biblical claims with an open mind, and I think you may come to the same intelligent conclusions that I have. I don't make any brownie points in heaven or with my church for spending my time doing this ot if you believe as I do. I do this and care because I know this to be true. You say that you are not concerned about sin or an afterlife because you believe this is all there is. What if you are wrong, and you have to suffer eternally for a bad judgement. Isn't it worth the effort to explore it?

I see! Actually, the people in his enviroment did exactly the opposite, and let me explain why! Yes the Jews at the time of Jesus were longing for and expecting a Messiah. The Tenach (Old Testament) gave two pictures of the Messiah to come. Messiah Ben David, the Kingly Messiah, and Messiah Ben Yoseph, the suffering Messiah. The Rabbi's of old seeing this dual role of Messiah actually speculated that perhaps there would be two Messiahs. The fact is the Jewish people were looking for the "Kingly" Messiah to save them from Roman bondage. The Messiah that came was the "suffering" Messiah, who came to become a final atonement for sin. When He returns at His second coming, He will come at the Kingly Messiah to establish His Messianic kingdom. In truth, the people in His enviroment went to great lengths to disprove His Messianic credentials. You ask how you life would be improved. Good question and I believe you are sincere. As an intelligent person, I believe that you would want to know what the truth really is. If Jesus was who He claimed to be and did what He came to do, it has eternal implications for you and for me. You are going to die someday, as am I and everyone else. If the Bible is true and Jesus was the Messiah, and if you reject His free gift of salvation, you will be eternally lost. I didn't use the "Hell" word, but that is what I am really saying. That is after you are gone, but what about the brief time your are here. A life of faith is a life of home. As a child of God, you have fellowship with other Believers, and have a direct spiritual connection with the Father. The Bible teaches that you become indwelled with the Holy Spirit the moment that you believe, and your are changed forever. I can personally tell you that that is very true. Your priorities change. How you feel inside changes. Purity and truth have new meaning. The benefits and changes are legion. Perhaps I do know scripture better than you, which means nothing, but the real difference is I KNOW Jesus and have a personal relationship with the saviour. That means everything. My prayer is that you could experience that too. Being an athiest because you can't see a reason not to is not a real reason. If what I am telling you is true, that in itself is good reason not to be an athiest.

The problem with your supposition that Jesus could have read the prophecies and altered His actions to fulfill them, is that many of the fulfilled prophecies were not in his control! i.e. his bloodline, manner of death, the soldiers gambling for His garments, etc. He would have had to have some way to cause his parents to go into Egypt, and of course, John the Baptist would have had to be willing to have his head removed. The list goes on! With regardto unfulfilled prophecy concerning the Messiah, a portion was meant to be fulfilled to provide His messianiac credentials, while another body of prophecy is to be forfilled at His second coming at the end of the age. Consider what would have been involved for Jesus to stage his claim to messiahship! First, he would have to be insane to subject himself to the excruciating death that he suffered. The Roman officials would have been in on it. So would all of the Apostles and deciples. So would the Pharasees and Saducees. Even Jewish historians and some writers of Talmud would have had to be agreeable to it. So would the multitudes that witnessed his teaching and miracles. An if all of this were possible, what would the motive be? There are other prophecies to consider as well, such at the one that foretold of the rebirth of Israel, which after 2000 years of not being a country possessing their God given land, we have seen fulfilled in our own geberation. Lucky writing?? I don't think so. At some point, as the mountain of prophetic evidence builds and the "amazing connections" multiply we reach a point where we can say with certainty that it must be true. With all due respect, the arguments that you offered are all based on "possibilities" and "what could have happened" and guesses for which there is no evidence!

Laurend, I respectfully disagree! There is overwhelming evidence both historically and through first hand personal accounts. So much so that no serious historian has come to the conclusion that Jesus did not exist. The fact taht you or I have not personally seen him is not evidence that he did not exist. I never saw Abraham Lincoln, but I have no doubt he existed. Using your understanding, we would have to say that NO ONE in the Bible or any other historic writings can be proven to have existed because we can't see them now, and we have to rely on historical evidence to prove them. I am not looking to continue the backbiting, but can't you see the flaw in that argument. It makes no common sense.

Alexandra, Thanks for a serious post! You said you camt to the conclusion as much study. I am curious as to what exactly you studied. You said that what led to your studies was "fascination with messianic cults", so I assume that it was not from a prospective of determining weather there is indeed a diety. Am I correct in this assumption? One of the many things that led me to faith was messianiac prophecy, and the mathamatical odds accociated with the fulfillment of these peophecies. For instance, It was prophesied in Psalms 22 how the Messiah would be put to death. This prophecy was written many hundreds of years before crucificition was every heard of. The odds of this occuring are off the chart. It was prophesied that the Messiah would be born in Bethlehem. The matamatical odds that Jesus would both be crucified and have been born in Bethlehem not increases many times over. Let's add another prophecy, say that He would have to be of the Davidic bloodline. This again increases the odds many more times. When you consider all the prophecy fulfilled by Jesus, the staggering odds are a number we can't even conceive of. Into the realm of certainly. Have you considered these things?

I dodn't know what that means, but I will assume it is not a bad thing!! :-)

Please reread my original post! I did not write that letter. It came from a Jewish women in France. Those were her words, not mine. I just passed her letter along for consideration. My focus was to bring the events taking place in France to light!

Green, With all due respect, do you seriously consider arguments that Jesus never existed to be SERIOUS?? Even your Rabbi, Talmud, and Jewish historians acknowledge that He lived. That argument does not enjoy mainstream acceptance, and if you are an inlelligent human being, which I think you are, you can't really think otherwise. I don't dismiss "information which does not agree with my world view", I dismiss information that has no basis in fact or can not be substanciated with evidence. Would't you?? If I told you a cow layed an egg, would you seriously consider that? Come on now! If someone wants me to consider an alternative viewpoint, present me with some real evidence to support it. Is that a lot to ask? Am I convinced that what I believe is right! You bet I am, and it is not based upon blind faith or how I was raised. Am I willing to consider otherwise?? Not unless you can present me with evidence to make me change my belief system. Is there a problem here? Believe me, I am far from a self-rightous bully! I was once an agnostic with little use for any God, so I fully understand where those that do not believe are coming from. I do not consider myself any better any anyone else. Just forgiven! If my zeal for what I believe comes across as self-righteousness, I again apoligize. You as a Jew find my desire to share my beliefs with Jewish people as racism. If Jesus really was the Messiah, as many, many Jew have come to believe, do you still think you would be offended if I told you so? You can believe this or not, but my desire to reach Jewish people comes out of my love the God's people and my faith. If you guys would give me half a chance, you might find out that I am not what you preceive me to be, and perhaps, what I am saying has some merit worthy of considering.

Green, The "P" word is not an issue with me. It was said in the heat of discussion, perhaps out of fustration, so let's let it go. If you go back and read the post you quoted and look at what was actually said and it's context, you will see I never called anyone those things at all. They were an example of how anyone cold get to heaven through Jesus, even YOU anbd even ME! I am as much unworthy as anyone else on my on merit. Regarding the Sodom remark which was made to a fellow Christian, if you read the Sodom & Lot story, you will see that Lot was beset by a group of unbelieving men wishing to attack him. That is the analogy I used, it is what it felt like to me, was not directed at any one individual. I make no apoligies for it. If you look at the last paragraph of the post you just made, it is a perfect example of the verbal assualts that have been made against me from day one! "It is not the message, it's the messenger"! Don't you think that's personal?? And that is pretty mild compared to what others have said. I started this thread asking your moderator, who labled herself as a "token athiest" why she considered herself an athiest and how she arrived at her conviction that there is no God. It was an honest question coming out of a title she gave to herself. I understand that there are many on this board who consider themselves as athiests. Does anyone care to tackle this question. No one has addressed it seriously since this thread started!!

BJean, I have no illusions that everyone will agree with my charactization here. It is what it is and you can either accept it or take it personally. "Crawling Out Of The Woodwork" is a commonly used expression, and you know it. Yeah, some of the terminology I used was a bit extream, however many of the things that have beed said here, in accusation and attack against me, have been absurd and beyond reason, hense the "wacko and nut job" verbage. It is interesting that one seems to take issue with all that I have be called and the verbal barbs thrown in my directions. Yeah, there is a double standard in play here, but I don't believe it's on my part. Calling the argument "stupid" was nothing but pure truth. Trying to make an argument that Jesus never existed is so outragous it is beyond stupid. Asking if someone had joined the "Flat Earth Society" was over the top, a personal afront, and I apoligize for it. I have no desire to make this personal. I have attempted to engage in serious, intelligent exchange regarding a subject that came up as the result of an inquire I made of the mediator. When I asked questions to find out why she and others denied the existance of God, I was beset from all sides, and no one was interested in serious descussion of the subject, but rather went right for the throat. The things I said were not at all hateful, but rather defensive in the face of what I felt was an aggressive attack by many. I have all along ,and still do, welcome serious debate, discussion and exchange of ideas. When I say serious, I would hope that would mean being able to substanciate an expressed statement or idea with some sort of reasonable evidence, and be willing to consider an other opinion. If I told you that the moon was made out of cheese, would you just accept that or expect me to in some way make a serious argument it?? I have not found that here. If you want to be vigorously honest and go back to the beginning of this thread, you just might find that the subject and the tone of the debate was inspired and set by your moderator.

Be assailed by athiests in mass sure felt like what I described! Using the term "crawling out of the woodwork is just that, a term; an expression which is commonly used, and I never to my recollection compared anyone to a thief, liar, murderer, and the "bigot" adjective was directed at me by someone else! Let me make a statement to all on this board. If I said anything that was taken as an affront against you personally, then I extend my apoligies. That was never intended. In the heat of argument, sometimes things get said that could have been worded differently. I do not, however, make any apoligies for my arguments, aggressive as they may seem, because the redress I received was far for personal and vicious. In the heat of argument, sometimes things get said that could have been worded differently.

BOTH! Jesus did teach to "turn the other cheek", but He also reacted with anger at the money changers when they were diseacreating the temple. This was righteous indignation which has it's place with Christian witness and practice. My aggression has been directed at what I consider to be an assualt against my faith, but I have not reacted with aggression against the many assualts against my person, nor will I. I perhaps have labeled some arguments and comments as stupid or unfounded, but I have never assailed the person offering them.