Ron Cusano

I never felt that there was anything missing in my life either. I have a wife, kids, good business, owned a home, paid my bills, etc. I was happy. When I found God, I must admit, I got a lot happier. As I shared a few posts back, I got curious after reading a book that was way out there, about the Bible coming from aliens, etc. A real wacko thing. I actually picked up the Bible, started to research and study it, and listened to other people in the hope of proving them wrong. I did want to know what the truth was, because if this was true, somehow it effected what happened after I died, I thought it made good sense to check it out. When I checked it out with an open mind and an open heart, thats when all the peices fit together and it made perfect sense to me. I came to the only conclusion I could, that it was real. Everyone who comes to faith comes for a different reason and feom a different place. before that, I was not religious at all and had serious doubts weather there was such a thing as God, and if there was, what He have to do with me. Boy, was I wrong.

You are willing to accept that matter & energy "always existed" but not God. Isn't that inconsistant? Because God is able to create does not say that He had to be created. It is not a cop out. We only understand what is in "creation, the universe", whatever we want to call it, but God exists on a different plane other that time and space, we call it eternity, and is not governed by the the limititations we and creation are subject to. That is what make Him God. Yes God is spirit, but we don't know exactly, nor can we fully comprehend what "spirit" actually is. This is what the Bible teaches and it is consistant and constant. I think you are looking to rationalize and find proof positive for something we are not capible of fully understanding with our limited capisity.

I don't think that any of us are born with the propensity to believe. It's much easier not to believe. I was very happy as a non-believer and did not come to faith until I was in my 30's. Jesus said in the scriptures that "if you will seek me with an open heart, you will find me"! I think the people who find faith are the ones, for whatever reason, seek it out with an open mind. Some are just curious, some have life problem, sickness, health issues, and some, like myself come out of curosity or wanting to know the truth. The Bible say's "seek and ye shall find"! If we don't look with an open heart, we will never find true faith.

I think that we can both agree that there are things at play here that neithe of us, perhaps no one can fully understand. My feeling is that your scientific training and mindset is such that it prevents you from considering the possibility that God exists. Maybe that is where the faith part comes in, when we take the leap to say that yes, maybe there could be a creator that we call God. I think that if we put all the evidence together and used courtroom rules, we as the jury would conclude that there is enough evidence to prove the case "without a reasonable doubt" "Without a reasonable doubt", as we know, is not infallible, so the faith thing comes into play, as does reasoning and sense. As you know, even in science, "proof" is subjective and subject to change. If we can give science that latitude, why is it so hard to give God the same latitude??

Pewrhaps I used the wrong terminolgy then. I wasn't too bright in grammar either. What I was trying to convey was that all they we call "creation" i.e. matter, energy, etc. had to have a creator. Since God as we understand Him is neither, and does not exist in "time and space", this would not apply.

Since we understand the creator to be spirit and not matter or energy as we know it, we understand that the creator always existed. Christians also believe that time ans space are part of the creation, and the creator exists outside of time and space. We call it eternity. If we accept that everything just always existed, then how can we understand that everything ages? I have never heard anyone, even a scientist, suggest that everything always existed without having an origin. I think that to believe that would take far more faith that believing in a creator. It's something to think about.

I do believe you, and I can imagine it can be very uncomfortable, and maybe even lonely when you fill your beliefs are different. I guess thing starting for me when I asked myself if everything that I see around me, i.e land, sea, plants, trees, animals, the planets, the sun, the moon, the air, EVERYTHING just happened? As I said, I am not a scientist, but as I understand Einsteins Theory of Relativity, everything in creation (the universe) is getting older. In my way of thinking, that means everything was once younger . . . and younger, and younger. Until it had a starting point! If matter, energy, etc. wasn't created at some point, then where did it come from. That alone seems to have the hands of creation all over it. As someone who is educated in science, what is your take on that? Once I came to grips that there was a creator, it was a matter of searching to see who or what that creator is. I quickly ruled out the "what" because I saw intelligence in creation. I once heard someone use the anology that if you were walking in the woods and found a watch on the ground, what would you conclude? That the watch just happened over a period of time, or that some intelligence made the watch. I know this is in simplistic terms, but I think you can get the picture. Coming to believe was a step by step thing for me and not something I could embrace immediately, and it took a lot of logic to convince me.

That is an honest answer and I appriciate that. I used to feel the same way. I never knew much about the Bible or the whole God thing. I was brought up as a Catholic but never really know much about God or Jesus, let alone had a relationship with him. Actually, it was a book written long ago called "Chariot of the Gods" by Eric Von Danakin (spelling might be wrong) that claims the Bible was inspired by space aliens, that got my curiosity up. I started reading the Bible, listening to what various people had to say about it, and after a time, all the pieces seemed to fit together, and it made perfect sense. Then I started looking into prophecy with an open mind, actually trying to disprove it. What I found blew my mind! When I looked at all the evidence collectively, with a really open mind, I could come to no other conclusion than it was for real, God was for real and Jesus was for real. I have been studing, reading, teaching and writing about it ever since. To be perfectly honest, blind faith had nothing to do with it at all. It was facts and evidence, and determination to find out the real truth.

See! Miracles DO HAPPEN!!

PS - If you think about it, this leads right back to when we started this thread, when I asked you how you came to the belief that there was no God and what you had based that belief on.

That works for me! And it goes without saying, that I don't believe your take on evolution, and you don't believe my take of the Bible!

There is only two people that I can recall who claim to be Christians that have a problem with how I understand scripture. One who is apparently from a very liberal demonination that does not accept the Bible literally, and the other who professes to be a Conservative Christian but does not have the conviction to stand behind his supposed views, but flip-flops back and forth because he doesn't want to "argue". I know you find that admirable, but I find it a major cop-out and wimpish! There are one or two others who had a problem with what the preceived as my "attitude" and while I may disagree with them, it had nothing to do with interpretation . By beliefs are not based upon MY interpretation, since I believe the Bible interprets itself. In face the scriptures say that the Bible "is not open to any private interpretation"! If you accept that the Bible is to be taken literally, then the subject changes fron one of interpretation to one of "What does the Bible say", and "what is the context in which it is being said". If you want to challange my understanding of what the Bible means, then you need to support it with the BIBLE, not ideas, feelings and opinions.

I have looked at research on then other side, and admittedily find arguments, of a detailed scientific nature, from either side, hard to comprehend. Therefore I gravitate toward the scientists that have opinions and findings consistant with the Word of God. We are not talking about mearly a few crackpots, as you like to make them out to be, but quite a few respected authorities, and more constantly jumping aboard the bandwagon. I also don't know all the scientific details about medical science, and I have never went to medical school. There are a lot of different opinions and methods of treatment out there, that is why I do to a doctor who I trust. Chiropractors swear by their scientific understanding of disease and treatment, which differs from that of MD's. The same can be said of homeopaths, herbalists, , etc. There is a lot of conflicting science and schools of thought, especially with evolution. Everyone thinks they are right. At least I am honest enough to admit when I don't know something. You attempt to challange things of a scriptural nature when you are completely clueless. Now, that is really "bunk" to me!

He believes it it for many other reasons as well, so what is your point??

First, I am not an immature Christian by any stretch of the imagination. Christianity fully accepts science in many areas, but when it comes to conclusions that are in direct opposition to scriptural truth, we reject them unless the findings are indisputable. That is not the case with evolution or the "big band theory"! As I mantioned earlier, and which you cannot dispute, what science says is absolute truth today, can be something entirely different tommorow!

Admittedly, I am not a trained scientiest so I am not equiped to argue evolution at that level, but as I mentioned, I believe and accept the work of others scientiests that have the knowledge and come to a different conclusion that you do. As far as the Christian scientiests that accept creation and evolution, from what I have read and understand, they accept evolution as far as acknowledging the species changes according to enviroment and need. What they do not accept is that one species evolves into another entirely different species, such as an ape becoming a human. You get upset that I challenge you in your area of expertise, and yet you challange me in mine - the Bible! So how is that different?? Mayby looking at it from that viewpoint you can understand why I also get upset!!

http://www.mat.univie.ac.at/~neum/christ/creation.html

Maybe you can't see or prove God because are spiritual blind and dead. You can't see the wind either, but you can see it's effects. That is how God it too! There a great verse in the Bible that says, "the fool hath said in his heart, the is no God"! That pretty well sums it up! You can doubt who I have spoken with all you want, but that doesn't make it untrue. Personally, I couldn't care less what you think! You are so impressed with yourself that it bugs you when YOU are challenged. YOU are a legend in your own mind. In my mind, you are very sad. So you know more than me about science! WoW! Aren't you the bright one! I am so impressed! But I forgot, science is your "god", even if it is a fallible god! There is a whole lot more to life and death that you precious science! There are many, many very reputable scientises out there that believe in creation and do not embrace evolution. You just tune them out because you already have you mind made up.

Don't flatter yourself! You aren't making me blow! I have wised up to you and your mind games! The truth hurts, doesn't it? The truth is, it takes a lot more "faith" to believe that science is the only truth, than it takes to believe the God of the Bible. We're talking about a lot more that evolution here. I admit that I am not well versed on science, but I have discussed it with scientists far more educated and knowledgeable that you who believe in the creation fact over the evolution theory. I know it's a kick in your ego to think there are others more intelligent and educated that you, but you can take that to the bank. The evidence to support creation far outweighs the evolution evidence.

It's interesting that you ignore the rest of the post but focus on that! That is what is laughable!

Absolutely not! Science is right most of the time . . . but not all of the time. Who knows, next year they may be saying the band does some harm we don't know about today! I said, "it makes a poor foundation on which to base all truth"! You only read what you want and then twist it around to try to make a point that is not there. The fact is, you do worship a God, only it's not called God. It's called science, and you worship it at the alter of secular humanism. And your God is ofter wrong. It is fallible. The God of the Bible is infallible and His truth never changes.

Science is a poor foundation on which to base all truth, since science changes all the time. What is considered fact today, could change tomorrow. For centuries, the worlds best scientists insisted the world was flat. That was a scientific truth! Opps, now it isn't. FYI - the Bible let us knbow the world was round rather that flat, centuries before the concept was even conceived by scientists. Your source of "truth" is science that changes constantly. Mine is the Word of God that never changes!

Maybe the did investigate other sources; sources that you discounted, and came to a different conclusion than you!

Tommy, When you refer to abstract thought, I am not exactly sure what you mean by that. I am able to intrepet the Bible just fine. Most Conservative theologians agree that the Bible is to be taken literally except where it's context makes it clear that it's meaning is not literal. I have given examples of this way back. My understanding and comprehension of life is based upon the foundation of scripture. I therefore cannot condoning or embracing ideals, ethics, thinking and principals that are at odds with the Bible. Perhaps that is what you mean when you say I am not an abstract thinker. If so, I don't see that as a bad thing. I know there are some very booksmart people her, highly educated and the like, but in my humble opinion, they are totally blind and ignorant to the only thing that really matters in life. I, on the other hand, am not highly educated and do not claim to be a mental giant. But what I do know is that I am wise in the things that matter most. Things that don't end when they close the lid on the coffin. Sometimes all that intelligence manes you blind to the truth. For what it's worth, you sound like a decent guy!

Sounds like we finally may get some school teachers that didn't graduate from Secular-Humanist U! Sounds like they knew what they were talking about!