Ron Cusano

Yes, but when we, being human do continue to sin, the Bibles tells us that God continues to forgive us if we just ask! You limit the grace and love of God!

I explained this to you several times already and I am not going to keep repeating myself. It didn't speak against it because having indentured servants, what you are calling slaves, was an accepted social practice. And yes, if you divorce without biblical cause and remarry, you are an adulterer. If that doesn't sit well with you, take it up with God and your own church!

EXACTLY!! Right on the money!

You are entitled to your opinion, but that is just what it is, opinion. We are all sinners, even Kate, and in need of salvation. God cannot have any fellowship with sin, so unless our sin problem is dealt with, we cannot enter Heaven. I don't know Kate's heart or what she may or may not have learned about the Lord, but I have to trust Him to do things according to His will and righteousness. You know, 14 year olds are capable of murder, rape, robbery and all manner of things. Should they not be responsible before God because they are 14?? I am not saying Kate did any of these things, but at 14, we are responsible for our relationship to God. This may not sit well with your feeling and emotions, but you ned to trust God to judge righteously.

The Bible tells us that marriage is a covenant for life and you would be obligated to try to make your marriage work. You would be suprised at how God can change marriage even when we marry "jerks"! That is if you put God in the center of the marriage and have the willingness. If you marriage became unbearable because you were being abused, harmed, immorality, etc., I believe it wouold be permissible to leave, but not remarry. This is why we should not enter into marriage lightly.

In a sense, yes, good works are an indicator of salvation. But only an indicator and not proof positive. Somepeople experience salvation, and because of weakness, they backslide into an old lifestyle, as did the nation of Israel. Could that be what you father experienced? I don't know. I don't know what he really believed in his heart and neither do you, so neither of us know for a fact weather he was truly saved or not. Again, good works are an indicator of salvation, but there are other circumstances of the heart and life that come into play. That is why only God can judge men's hearts! The one thing that I do know for a fact is that once you are truly saved, you never can become "unsaved"! Jesus said of those who are saved, "no man can pluck them out of mine hand"! No man even included ourselves. uote=Carlene;401662]I will use your own words here, just so we are clear on this. This sounds, to me, like good works are the measuring stick of salvation. If they are present, you are in the process of being saved. If they are absent, you aren't really saved. So.....does this mean you have to keep performing good works all the rest of your life? If you stop after, say, 20 years and start cheating, drinking, etc, does that mean salvation has slipped away? Does it mean you were never really saved in the first place? In my dad's case, he was a pretty nice guy until age 30 or so. He did not drink prior to that, held a job, and was a respected member of society (and the Baptist church).

No problem on the name thing. I thought you were trying to be condesending. The mention of slavery was addressing a custom of the time, which was different that today's idea of slavery, and was addressing it in a manner of how Believers treat others, rather that condoning owning another person. Regarding women, the Bible does not demean women, but rather hold them in high esteem. Within the church God has different roles for men and women, both of equal value and importance. Because our liberal society and the womens movement has changed womens roles in the world does not mean ther are right by God's standards. If anything, I think society demeans women today. Divorce was permitted under Mosic Law under certain conditions, and even in the New Testament for the cause of adultry. To try to infer that the Bible condons and permits owning another person, that women are second class citizens or that divorce means going to Hell is taking things out of context.

Let's start with the fact that we are all sinners and in need of salvation, even from the womb. Scripture tells us that once we reach the reason, God reveals himself to each of us, and that we are all without excuse before Him (Romans 1) I believe that God holds us responsible for what we have received. I would have to believe that by age 14 she would have heard about Jesus and what He did. Weather she accepted or rejected what she received is a matter between her and God alone, and there is no clear cut answer to your question. Above all God is just, and we can only trust Him in matter of this sort.

I don't know for a fact weather her father did or did not get saved. All I know is, based upon what she said, her father did not display a changed life, which makes his salvation questionable. We are expected to have changed lives and do good works when we are saved, but it is Jesus and Him alone that brings salvation. Once you are saved and have the Holy Spirit of God indwelling you, you cannot lose it.

Carlene, I never said salvation was a gradual process. I said a changed life was a gradual process. You keep twisting everything I say and putting words in my mouth to make points that are not accurate. The only one who know who had a real salvation experience is God who knows out hearts. Certainly not your sister or me. You keep playing these childish word games instead of considering weather they are valid or not. Again, for the upteenth time, good works are a sign of a changed life through the salvation experience. Good works do not bring about a salvation experience. I can't make it any plainer than that.

You took offence whan I called you Charlene, but now you call me "Ronnie" and the other day "be a good boy"! That's a little condesending isn't it. Everything in the Word of God is literal in the proper context, unless that context clearly indicates otherwise. Because you apparently don't have a grasp on the consistancy of all of scripture you insist on picking and choosing passages completely out of context and/or without understand their place in God's plan, and trying to make a case for it.

You are twisting things and I hope not purposely. It is not that he was not saved because he did not change and do good works, he did not change and do goos works probally because he was not really saved! There is a big, big difference that you are not seeing here.

All true! But it is not the good works that brings salvation. That what was Jesus was here for.,

I have never seen where it was written that creation by God was done in one day. If we believe that the Bible is inspired by God, then we also have to believe that God handed it down to us accurately, since God is perfect and does not make mistakes. Yes it was written doen by men, but these men were under control of the Holy Spirit of God. Jesus said to "search the scriptures" and that the scriptures were "good for doctrine and reproof"! Do you think Jesus would instruct us to use an imperfect testimony as the basis and foundation of our faith? If you can't trust the accuracy of the Bible, then you cannot know who Jesus was and what He did!! It is his testimony!! In the Bible God say's what He means and means what He says. If you can't accept the literal meaning of the Word of God, there is nothing on which to base the Christian faith except tradation, opinion and feelings, all of which mean nothing.

No! Same wrong conclusion!! To go to Heaven you don't have to do anything but accept God's free gift of salvation through Jesus who died for your sins. He did it all!! PERIOD! Your good works have nothing to do with you going to Heaven! uote=Carlene;401588]Okay.....then this should work. And it's perfectly logical. 1. Accepting Christ = being saved 2. Being saved = desire to do good works 3. The truly saved perform good works 4. Only the truly saved go to heaven 5. To go to heaven, you must perform good works, or be prevented from doing so thru no fault of your own.

You are drawing an inaccurate conclusion. You would be correct if you changed #5 to say - Those truly saved display a changed life showing good works which attest to having a salvation experience. Someone can have a salvation experience, go out an get hit by a car and die, before there is time for evidence of salvation through good works. That person is no less saved. Again, it is not the good works that is required for salvation, it is Jesus, and Him alone. The good works are an "outward sign of an inward change", just like Biblical baptism.

Jill, that was a lovely answer and shows your heart. Once saved, the Holy Spirit indwells us and gives us the desire to do good works. The "flesh" points us in the other direction. The Apostle Paul wrestled with this and wrote about it in the Book of Romans. When we are indwelled with the Holy Spirit, we are changed, forever. We desire to do good works and must be willing to allow the Lord to change us. This is waht repentance is all about. Turning from sin and changing. It is a growing and refining process that lasts all of our lives until we go home to be with the Lord. It is also difficult, and we sometimes have set backs. The important thing we need to remember is that all of this comes from being saved; it does not cause us to be saved. The grace of God through the atoning work of Jesus was sufficient for that. I can never take credit for always being correct, but the Word of God is always correct and that is what I stand on. It is the fopundation of the faith.

Oh, come on now Carlene! You are twisting what I said and you know it. To be saved, you need to trust Jesus completely for your salvation, and Him alone. Once you are saved, and indwelled by the Holy Spirit, you are changed, and the result of that change is good works. It is not the good works that gets you to Heaven. It is the atoning death and shed blood of the Messiah. Don't play word games.

I am saying that if a person does not show a changed life, his salvation claim is suspect. We all grow in grace and knowledge at different rates so someone who is a new Believer is not going to instantly be transformed to a perfect person. We are works in progress!

The "fruits" are the result of the completed salvation experience. It does not bring about salvation. It is not different in the least.

Sorry for the name thing. It is not arrogant at all, it is Biblical fact. I am saying that if you believe that you must participate in your own salvation, aside from believing, than you will not go to Heaven, which is what your church teaches.

It doesen't differ at all. If you REALLY coem to Believe, the Holy Spirit indwells you and you are changed. It's a gradualy, growing change, but you are never the same. The fruits, or good works are the indication that the change is happening within you. Once you truly believe, nothing can pluck you out of the Lords hands.

Point 1 - I agree with you completely!!

Charlene, Just belonging to a church or claiming to be a Believer does not make you a Believer. Jesus said, "you their fruits you shall know that thay are mine"! You father, while climing to be a Believer, obviously did not display the fruits of a regenerated life. On the other hand, your Mom, while belonging to a Church that I believe has serious doctrinal problems, may very well have had saving faith. My wife was like that. She came to a saving faith while still in the Catholic church, but left after a time because she couldn't remain in good conscience. I can understand your feelings aqnd resentments, but keep your eyes on the Word of God and not on people. People will alsways disapoint you, but God never will.

Charlene, The gospel in a nutshell is "John 3:16 - For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son, that whosoever believeth in him shall not perish, but have eternal life". If you believe Jesus was who he claimed to be and did what he claimed to do, they you will go to heaven, regardless of any denomination distinction. The problem lies in understanding "who Jesus was and what he did"! The waters get a little muddied here what you introduce having to do certain things - "works" - to earn heaven, or look to other means for forgiveness of sin - "comfession, penence, absolution, etc. The fact of the matter is, NONE of us are WORTHY of heaven. We are all worthy of Hell, but by the grace of God alone, Heaven is made available to us through the atoning work of Jesus on the cross. The reason it is so important to understand the scriptures is because this is where the real understanding of who he was and what he did comes from. Anything aside from the scriptures is only tradation, opinion and heresay, which means nothing because is constantly changes. I believe that there are those from all denominations that truly believe, bgut in doing so, are believing in opposition to the official teachings of certain denominations. Many denominational teachings are just wrong when given the test of scripture, nevertheless, I believe there are many who are truly saved within their ranks, no thanks to the wrong teachings. My "Conservative" position mearly means that by foundation for my belief system is the scriptures alone, and that then mean exactly what they say taken in the proper context. It is not a matter of better or worse, it's a matter of true or false.