leroyspuds

Yes Sunnee please join us. It's fun. Patty's the lone conservative these days and could we could use some more conservatives to keep our debate lively. Welcome!

I agree, abut I don't like either. Giving oney away is one thing when you have some to spare, but when you don't have any and you have to borrow it to give it away, then you have big problems. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- I know, this is all very frustrating and our huge debt is scary. We do need to cut spending where we can, but not at the expense of the least fortunate of us. Unfortunately, some more deficit spending was necessary to pull us out of the hole we're in. Cutting social programs wouldn't have solved the problems created by years of irresponsible behavior by the corporations. Eventually things will get better so long as we're sure to regulate the behavior of the folks that put us in this mess. Everytime I look at my 401k I get sick. I've been going without to squirrel away money to retire on and these finanical institutions gambled my money away in order to line their own pockets. To me they are the enemy, not the poor people. Yeah, there's a lot of people who cheat the system and there's some really wasteful spending going on. But let's not eat our own. Let's fix the real big problems that have cost us all dearly.

This is a clear example of how right wingers are so easily fooled and brainwashed. They get hysterical over nothing and perpetuate the hysteria by sending out the lies to everyone they know without ever checking the facts. If we want to be well-informed responsible American citizens we need to find out the truth, not fall for every lie that falls from the lips of Rush, Glen and Sarah and their ilk. Ignorance is not bliss! It's ruining our country.

PG: The Stimulus Bill and bailouts wouldn't have been necessary if big financial institutions hadn't driven the economy into the dirt. That happened on Bush's watch now Obama has to fix it. Though the Republicans criticize the Stim Bill they take credit for bringing all this good money to their states. We had eight years of party hearty under the Republicans and now we're all having to pay for it. Sure didn't stop the fat cats from getting their big bonuses though. Starting an unnecessary war didn't help our pocketbooks either. Sure helped Haliburton though. If I had a choice of whether to give food stamps to a single mother who can't afford childcare or to give millions to wealthy corporations, it's a no brainer.

Cleo's/Bjean: I'm originally from PA too! I now live in Montana. Still plenty of pristine wilderness here. Logging and mining have caused some damage though. One of the biggest EPA Superfund sites is in Butte MT from a copper mine. Now they're trying to drill oil wells in a fragile grizzly bear habitat in a wilderness area in Western Montana. So, far we've kept them out.

Anybody notice we're running out of conservatives to debate? Where's Chris from NJ, where's Ariscus? :biggrin:

I cringed when I heard that BP guy say that on the news yesterday. It's a clear illustration of what I said earlier about corporations having no conscience. BP and their cronies tried to shift the blame to each other and the right wing is trying to score political points on the blood of those poor guys who died on the rig. They're all a disgrace. :biggrin:

CM: "I wonder what they would do if they could no longer drink their water?" ------------------------------------------------------------------------ To quote BJean's previous post: "I suppose the only way it is possible for us to change our way of life is for one catastrophy after another to happen until we find ourselves unable to breathe or physically survive what we've created."

Most endangered U.S. river is drinking water source for millions PHILADELPHIA (Reuters Life!) – The Upper Delaware River in New York State, the source of drinking water for 17 million people, is the most endangered river in the United States, according to a new report. It is one of 10 rivers on a list, compiled by U.S. environmental group American Rivers, which are threatened due to causes such as natural gas drilling, mining and poor flood management. The Upper Delaware topped the list because of the threat of contamination from chemicals used in gas drilling in New York and on the Pennsylvania side of the watershed. Gas drilling was also the reason why the Monongahela River in western Pennsylvania was rated ninth on the list.

They don't get it. All the Republican polititians need to do hit the abortion, guns, gays and big govt buttons and they get the votes. As is always the case the little guy gets manipulated by fear and religion into unwittingly supporting the bad guys.

Associated Press article on what Obama said today about corporate welfare: Obama also said it is time to roll back "billions of dollars in tax breaks" for oil companies and use the money for clean energy research. He said the catastrophic Gulf oil spill shows the country must move toward clean energy by embracing energy efficiency, tapping natural gas and nuclear power and eliminating tax breaks for big oil. Obama said that the Gulf spill "may prove to be a result of human error — or corporations taking dangerous shortcuts that compromised safety" — but that deepwater drilling is inherently risky and America cannot rely solely on fossil fuels. The president said that as the election approaches, he expects Republicans to make the same economic argument they have for decades. He described that as giving tax cut to millionaires "who didn't need them," gutting regulations and putting industry insiders in charge of oversight, as well as shortchanging investment in research. "To be fair, a good deal of the other party's opposition to our agenda has also been rooted in their sincere and fundamental belief about government," Obama said. "It's a belief that government has little or no role to play in helping this nation meet our collective challenges." He added: "It's an agenda that basically offers two answers to every problem we face: more tax breaks for the wealthy and fewer rules for corporations."

Patty, I agree that we shouldn't have a bunch of nuisance regulations and need to carefully choose what to regulate and how. What I want is a balance between what's fair to Americans and what's fair to businesses so we all prosper. I don't want powerful corporations controlling Congress. We've seen so much abuse that our entire economy was brought to it's knees. The government surely has it's faults but we need it to do what's necessary to protect us from those abuses. I think BP is a good example of this. They knew there was a problem and they kept drilling anyway because they didn't want their profits adversely affected. People died, the environment was damaged and people's livelihoods were ruined. Corporations only see the bottom line and their decisions will always be based on how to make the most money. They have no conscience. Sure they want to drill in sensitive habitats. Do you think it's right to destroy habitat and kill off life on this planet so they can make a buck? We don't need more drilling, we need individuals and corporations to invest their time and money in finding an alternative energy source. We need to end our dependence on oil and the Middle East. Do think the oil companies want us to become independent? Heck no! Their propaganda is going to be that we need to loosen regulations and let them drill anywhere they want so they can keep selling oil.

LMAO!! Cleo's you're a gem! :confused:

It really is sad BJean. It reminds me of the movie The Matrix where people are serving the big machine as human batteries. I'd like to unplug from it and live a more natural existence. I guess that's not possible these days (like ever since the industrial revolution!) :confused:

Associated Press: "All along the Gulf Coast, where the tea party thrives and socialism is a common description for any government program, conservatives who usually denounce federal activism suddenly are clamoring for it." I'd like to see Rand Paul go down to the gulf and tell those people that government should stay out of the affairs of BP.

Corporations now shape our lives and our culture. We're hooked on them like a drug. Every minute of the day they're telling us what to wear, what to eat, what to listen to, what to watch, what to think, what to value. They have one objective -- to get our money any way they can. They march out an endless array of products to capture our dollar and we stand in line to get the latest and greatest gadgets and fads. People can't survive without video games, cell phones and big screen TV's. We gobble up unhealthy convenience foods that make us fat. We buy medical insurance and get cut off when we get sick. We invest our retirement funds and it gets gambled away. People have to take prozac to enable them to cope with the anxiety and disconnectedness they feel by living this way. The catch 22 is the corporations provide the jobs we work at to put food on our tables and a roof over our heads. It's a merry-go-round we can't get off. Our lives revolve around producing goods and services so we can get a paycheck to enable us to buy goods and services. So, the only answer is that we the people, through our elected representatives, make sure the corporations play fair.

Say Patty, did you know the guy you are quoting is a supporter of legalized abortion; an opponent of the death penalty; an intelligent design critic and an advocate for the scientific consensus on evolution, calling the religion-science controversy a "false conflict; a supporter of embryonic stem cell research using embryos discarded by fertility clinics with restrictions in its applications; and a longtime advocate of radically higher energy taxes to induce conservation. Hmmm, and you're quoting this guy?

Conservatives regard big businesses as a sacred cow and are looking for a scapegoat to divert attention from the truth. BP screwed up. Haliburton screwed up. But somehow it's all Obama's fault, not the fat cats who are licking their chops while people's lives are devastated. It's not the poor that are sucking up your dollars. You know where your money is going? -- to pay for the mistakes of the rich and greedy corporations who have no moral imperative to do the right thing. They'll make a buck at any price to society. We need more regulation before they drive the world into bankruptcy and ruin the planet along with our children's future. We need to flush the lobbyists out and de-corporatize our Congress. NO MORE CORPORATE WELFARE. Conservatives talk about revolting against their government when they should be revolting against big businesses who are sucking the lifeblood out of our country. Well, maybe when the Messiah returns "He" can plug the leak!

Patty, I'll leave you with this: An indisputable fact is that no religion will ever be the law of this land as the founding fathers had the good sense to make that unconstitutional.

Related to Rand Paul philosophy and business regulation: There are so many examples of this that it should be obvious we need government to regulate business (BP duh.) We wouldn't have child labor laws either or mining safety. Libertarians represent the epidomy of greed and selfishness. Everyone for him/herself regardless of the cost to society. Chris Mathews is supposed to have a show on "the new right." Not sure when it's being broadcast.

To Patty re: homosexuals You said the new covenent means you don't have to adhere to the rules in the old testament, though many fundamentalist Christians use Leviticus as their main weapon against gays. OK, for argument sake, let’s not worry about what the Old Testament says. Let’s just look at the new testament. None of the four gospels mentions the subject. So as far as we know Jesus never spoke about homosexuality. There’s nothing about homosexuality in the Book of Acts, in Hebrews, in Revelation, or in the letters attributed to James, Peter, John, and Jude. Homosexuality isn’t mentioned in ten of the thirteen letters attributed to Paul. It’s only in Romans 1:26–27, 1 Corinthians 6:9–10, and 1Timothy 1:8–11 that there may be references to homosexuality. (I’ll explain the “may be” later.) In any case, the utter scarcity of references to homosexuality in the New Testament suggests that it was not a matter of major concern for Jesus or for early Christians, yet it has been singled out as the one sin that results in American men and women being denied basic civil rights. 1Timothy 1:8–11 – from one of Paul’s letters to Timothy: But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully; Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine; 1 Corinthians 6:9–10 Paul’s letter to the church in Corinth: Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. Romans 1:24-27 Paul is exposing the practice of the pagan rites of fertility, common in Rome. Paul’s concern was for the Christian converts still practicing these pagan rites, worshiping idols and so forth. ..And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen. For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another So, what do these words in blue really mean? The reason I said “may be” earlier is because scholars have had difficulty translating the Greek words malakoi andarsenokoitēs which were used by Paul in Timothy and Corinthians. They are believed to be slang words for “soft” and “exploitative.” In later versions of the bible we see them translated as “boy prostitute” and “sodomite.” (Note it’s often misunderstood that Sodomites means homosexuals when in fact their sins were being cruel, selfish people who thought nothing of raping and killing strangers.) So what Timothy and Corinthians were referring to was the sexual exploitation of young male prostitutes. In recent versions of the bible we see the word “homosexual” being substituted. If these references were really about homosexuality in general there were Greek words with that actual meaning that Paul could have used, but didn’t. It’s interesting that all these references are from Paul. Paul also said, “Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.” In Mark 10:11 Jesus says, “Anyone who divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery against her. And if she divorces her husband and marries another man, she commits adultery.” If we are to take these things literally does this mean there should be no law that gives people the right to divorce and there should be laws prohibiting women from teaching and supervising men in the workplace? Fortunately, the United States is not a nation governed by the Bible, though you believe it should be. Our nation is governed by the Constitution and the Bill of Rights which says we’re all entitled to equal rights. Our laws were created to protect an individual's right to disagree. If the Bible (or someone's view of the Bible) replaces the Constitution as the law of the land, we undermine the great foundation upon which this country was built.

QUOTE PG: "Christians ARE against homosexuality. I never said they weren't. It is a sin and all Christians should be against anything that is sinful." -------------------------------------------------------- PG, in an earlier post you said let them have a ball, you were only against them getting married because it's against the definition of marraige between one man and one woman. Regardless, Christians disapprove of homosexuality based on the Old testament – Book 2 - Leviticus. However, they have a convenient way of ignoring whichever of god's laws they want to: These are all equally bad and call for punishment by death. Pick the ones to ignore: Death to men who lay with other men as they would a woman. Death to children who curse at their parents. Death to those who labor on the sabbath. Death to those who have sex with anyone but their spouse. Death to anyone who kills a man. Other Abominations. Pick the abominations to ignore: Eating a pig, shrimp, lobster or any shellfish. Approaching the altar if you’re blind, lame, a dwarf, or have a flat nose. Cross breeding plants and cattle. Wearing clothes made of more than one kind of Fiber. Shaving your head, cutting your beard, getting a tattoo. Having sex during your menstrual cycle punishable by exile from your people. Many folks on the religious right rail against paying taxes for social programs and say hateful things about those of other races and nationalities and sexual orientations, immigrants, etc. That’s also a no no according to Leviticus -- but ignore, ignore, ignore: “You shall not take vengeance or bear a grudge against the sons of your own people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself.” “When a stranger sojourns with you in your land, you shall not do him wrong. You shall treat the stranger who sojourns with you as the native among you, and you shall love him as yourself, for you were strangers in the land of Egypt. “If your brother becomes poor and cannot maintain himself with you, you shall support him as though he were a stranger and a sojourner, and he shall live with you. Take no interest from him or profit, but fear your God, that your brother may live beside you.” Matthew 22:36-40 and there’s this to think about: The Pharisees, the chief religious sect of that day, made almost an art form of classifying all the various laws and giving them relative degrees of importance. They asked Jesus what the greatest commandment in the Law was to test him. His answer: Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' All the Law and the prophets hang on these two commandments. Hypocrisy is the act of persistently professing beliefs, opinions, virtues, feelings, qualities, or standards that are inconsistent with one's actions. Hypocrisy is thus a kind of lie. Here’s what Luke 6:41-43 says about that: "Why do you look at the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? Or how can you say to your brother, 'Brother, let me take out the speck that is in your eye,' when you yourself do not see the log that is in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take out the speck that is in your brother's eye.” IMO, hypocrisy is the very worst sin of all. QUOTE PG: "All Christians should be against anything that is sinful." Next time you and your husband go out to dinner tell him not to shave, don't wear your favorite cotton blend dress, and please, please don't have the shrimp!.....

congrats on your new grandbaby!

Reading further, I believe the computer-designed DNA was actually injected into an already living cell. So, life didn't start from scratch per se. There is tremendous potential for good from this and similar efforts. Alternative fuels to get us off of oil dependence, cures for horrible diseases, and other advances would be great. Al Qaida creating genetically mutated terrorist zombies or biological weapons of mass destruction would not be desirable! Seriously, controls and safeguards are needed to ensure such technology is used for social good only. How to define and accomplish that is another question.

I think most people would agree we need more enforcement of the border and a more expeditious approval of work visas. Twelve hundred troops added to the current 20,000 border patrol agents isn't going to do the trick and $500M won't go far. So clearly we need Congress to act quickly pass a comprehensive plan. The more controversial issue is what to do with the 12 million folks already here illegally. Should we pay the estimated $200 billion needed to deport them all or offer some sort of amnesty program? If deportation is the answer how do you envision this taking place? Just to play devil's advocate what would the Libertarian take be on government mandates that prevent employers from hiring the work force they need for their businesses? Wouldn't free trade be better served if businesses could hire who they want without burdensome rules, regulations and paperwork?