Cleo's Mom

Thanks, Dave, for your suggestions.

Yes, I know the difference between hunger and lack of satiety. I can eat so that I reach a point of satiety, but it takes more food than it would with most successful bandsters. And it doesn't last long - certainly not hours. Secondly, when I had 2cc's and then 3cc's - it didn't change anything for me. With 2cc's I ate a certain amount of food because that was what I was told to eat. But I was hungry soon again. And it was just a disaster with the 3cc's. I couldn't figure out why 3cc's in a 10cc band would cause so many problems until I found out I had a 4cc band. I have to take my synthroid at least an hour before eating so I would take it around 6 AM with a sip of Water. When I had 3ccs that water would come back up when I laid down. All my doctor did was try to change how and when I took the pills rather than deal with the fact that at 6AM I should be able to take a sip of water. I stay at around 1300 calories. I have Protein at each meal but I don't calculate or do a breakdown. Early in the post-surgery days I was drinking protein until I was told I didn't need to do that anymore. I have tried the more protein thing. Proteins do not keep me satisfied longer. Complex carbs do. If you've read any of Jachut's posts (and she is a very successful bandster) she agrees that you need carbs to reach satiety and that protein doesn't always do it. I concur, for me. But others might have a different experience. I do have a new surgeon. I switched 7 months after my surgery. It didn't take me long to see that my original surgeon (who had only done 23 bands before me) had very poor follow up knowledge/care. He is a general surgeon who continues his general surgery practice. I also think that since he does RNY - he was used to seeing bigger weight losses each week and thought my plateau was a reflection on him. As far as reporting him - I know that the bar is very high for trying to show some kind of incompetence/negligence for a doctor. An attorney/ state board, etc.. would say that I had successful surgery, no complications and the doctor ordered all the appropriate tests and when it showed I was too tight he promptly took out some of the fill. They would just say that we weren't compatible as doctor/patient. He is still advertising for patients in the paper. I think he wants to get his hospital and center of excellence. But back to my band. I don't see what a fill would do for me. I would increase my chances for being stuck but still having that hunger. I know I am not alone with this situation with the band. The way it was promoted to me was - when you eat you feel full when the food reaches the top of the stomach. With the band the food stays at the top, thus giving you that sensation. Well, not so fast. With me it still seems like that empty bottom stomach is saying "I'm empty, feed me". The walls of the stomach stretch when we eat and send signals to the brain. When that bottom part is empty, there are no signals to the brain. Plus when I mentioned grehlin and leptin to my former doctor, he just rolled his eyes. The process of hunger, eating, satiety is SOOO complicated. I don't think they know how it competely works. I just know that the band has never worked like I read on here for some people and I am very envious of their success. Thanks for your help.

So, here is my situation. I was thin all my life growing up and had an enormous appetite. It always took a lot of food for me to feel satisfied. I ate when I was hungry, stopped when "full", didn't gain weight and didn't think about food. That all ended in my late 20's when the genes of my obese family kicked in. The weight started coming on, especially after 2 pregnancies. I did all the diets. They all left me hungry. So fast forward 30 years and now I'm obese. I get the lapband in Sept. 2008. In January 2006 I started my own diet, plus the 6 month pre-op diet and 2 week liquid diet before and after the lap band had me losing 60 lbs. My surgeon wanted me to lose another 10-15 lbs in the 3 weeks after surgery with no fill. That should have been red flag #1. That is an unrealistic expectation for anyone, plus I didn't have a lot more to lose at that point. Red flag #2 was when I found out he lied about the size band he put in me. He said it was 10cc but I found out it was 4cc. His first fill was 2cc's and his second fill was 1cc. This one caused me many problems - pain, reflux, heartburn, pressure. He blamed me. It was a case of well, if you drink that and it does that then don't drink. After he did an upper GI and saw what a mess I was and how I was too tight he called me in immediately for a slight unfill. At this point I had lost about 75lbs. He was never satisfied with this and gave me the come to Jesus talk when I hadn't lost from one appt. to another. That should have been red flag #3. So, I got a second opinion and that is when I found out about the lies, etc.. And then I switched to this new surgeon. He was very complimentary about my weight loss and had a supportive attitude. He told me I was too hard on myself (something my late husband used to always say to me) I want to make this very clear: At no point in my lapband journey from no fill to 3cc's did the band ever, ever for one second take away my hunger or provide me with satiety. Did it make it difficult to eat a lot at one sitting? Yes, but that is different. I was still very much unsatisfied. The inability to eat more and the feeling of satiety are two different things for me. In hindsight, I think the sleeve would have been a better choice for me - it takes away the stomach and reduces those hunger hormones which I think are my two biggest problems. But, I digress. So last December I got stuck so bad that I had to go to the ER and spend the night in the hospital. I have been through a lot of painful things but nothing like this. I couldn't even talk I was in so much pain. Dilaudid (sp?) didn't even help. All the fill was taken out of my band and that is where it is now. So, what am I supposed to do? Getting a fill will not help with the hunger and just make it more likely to cause a stuck episode and when I tell you the fear I have of this - it is overwhelming. I cannot even begin to tell you how painful that episode was. I am sure getting shot couldn't have been more painful. So, what do I do? I exercise every day. I count calories and keep a food log and I have the same hunger as I have always had - before the band. So, what do I do? I am 59, my insurance won't pay for the sleeve. But I did all this and now fear gaining weight back. So far I haven't but it is a struggle every day. Every day. So, you can see that the band doesn't work as it should for everyone. And I followed all the rules. Still do. So, what should I do?

When replies to posts who complain about being hungry or who are struggling are insulting, critical and offensive then yes, I do think the poster is smug and has a superior attitude. And that includes calling what that person does bitching and moaning. If the shoe fits..........Otherwise, why care? And like I said if the successful people really want to offer help, I take exception to a thread called bitching and moaning. That is not helpful or constructive in my opinion. I already offered alternative titles. I take the position of support for those who post complaints, you support those who call that bitching and moaning. We get it. If someone wants to reply directly to a complaining post - go ahead, but to start a thread with that title is posting just to post and serves no purpose but to be insulting.

Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, unemployment compensation (that workers pay into) have been around for a long time - but to listen to some - like the tea party - you'd think they just started under President Obama. And your neighbor's eligibility for unemployment would be based on his work record - length of time at job and salary. Government backed student loans and eliminating the middle man (banks) running these programs (saving billions) is just one thing the government has done to help with college, not to mention financial support for public colleges. Those on the right would say that you can't afford to send your kids to college because you didn't plan well - you should have started saving and investing when they were born. So, it's your fault. You're on your own. Those who support the government programs, like me, would say that there has to be more done to make college affordable, including writing off loans if you go into a particular field (teaching in some areas, medicine) and making the payment terms easier (both of which the Obama administration did). Their radical ideas from the right want to dismantle everything - eliminate the department of Education, the IRS, the 14th & 17th amendments, the minimum wage, go back to it being okay for a "whites only" sign in restaurants and even go so far as to shut down the government. I want to know how much I need to pay so that millionaires and billionaires can get $100,000+ checks in the form of tax cuts? And who will we borrow the money from? And it will add $700 billion to the national debt. All THESE things are scary to me.

Except for the military the extremist republicans that are running for office (and that is almost all of them as the "moderates" lost the primaries) want to dismantle the federal government. They want to get rid of everything and privatize everything (that is republican speak for we want to reward our corporate donors). The republican plan is called the "YOU'RE ON YOUR OWN PLAN" -need help getting a job? - you're on your own -unemployed? - you're on your own -need help with college tuition? - you're on your own -need help getting that mortgage? - you're on your own -need health insurance? - you're on your own -get dumped or denied by your health insurance? - you're on your own -lose your job and can't buy food?- you're on your own -need skilled nursing home care? - you're on your own And the list goes on. It's easy to be against unemployment when you're employed. It's easy to be against health care reform when you have health insurance. It's easy to be dismissive of the least among us when you are part of the most among us. And these smug tea partiers who thing they take care of themselves and "earned" everything they've got and are self-reliant and don't need the government can't even make it out of the house in the morning with the government touching their lives in many ways: -the clean air they breathe -the clean Water they showered and made their coffee with -the safe medications they took -the safely prepared Breakfast foods they ate -the electricity and gas they used to cook their food After they leave the house: -the safe car that they drive to their private sector job (that probably couldn't exist without tax-payer funded contracts) -the federally funded highways and bridges they travel over -the police and fire service of their community At work: -the government workplace safety standards -freedom to belong to a union and negotiate a fair contract (to level the playing field with those who hold all the power) And then these people come home from work and listen to Fox News and bad mouth the government when they couldn't live one day without it. Stupid, hypocritical people.

I think the important thing is doing liquids as opposed to solid food while your band settles down after the fill. I think you could have some creamed soup (no chunks) or something similar to help with the hunger. My doctor didn't even require liquids after a fill. But call your doctor in the morning for clarification.

I have been on LBT for quite awhile and I don't remember reading one post where the poster said they ate junk, drank with meals, didn't exercise, wasn't losing weight and blamed the band. They usually own up to the fact that they know they aren't doing what they are supposed to be doing. What they are looking for is some support, some suggestions on how to get and stay on track and make the band work. What they don't want or need is criticism, sarcasm, being judged or insulted. Now THOSE kinds of posts I have seen plenty of. And I can do without seeing them ever again. And I'm sure they scare off some newbies. But I've also seen posts that offer some very good advice and offer specific helpful tips for that particular poster taking into account their individual situation. These posts offer the positive feedback that I am sure is welcome. And by the way, the band fails many people. Read some of the stories on lapband complications, struggling bandsters, and removal. It doesn't work for everyone. For those who find so-called negative posts irritating, I suggest you quit reading them and/or limit yourself to the "Lapband Success Stories" forum. Plenty of positive posts there. Now I feel better having gotten that off my chest.

These democrats are cowards and there are plenty of them. They know that if they don't support the bush tax cuts for all, their opponents will say they want to raise your taxes. That simple message alone scares them. Republicans have made taxes a scary issue when in fact people pay far fewer federal taxes than most developed countries. And the taxes for 95% of working Americans have gone down under Obama. There are also some cowardly democrats who will run from the Obama accomplishments. TARP, the stimulus and the car bailout were all successes as well as healthcare - they all did what they set out to do. Money has been paid back and unemployment would have been 11% without the stimulus. It is hard to run on "what if", though. There are a few brave democrats who are actually running on their support for the stimulus and healthcare but they are probably in safe districts. It's all about winning elections.

The fact that you not only can't seem to keep water down but are having pain is very much a cause for concern and it should be for your doctor, too. Demand to see your doctor and have some (all?) fill taken out until you start to heal and are able to eat and drink normally. Then think about getting a small fill down the road when you are better.

Thank you for your honest post. And I think you touched on something very important. The capacity to eat and feelings of hunger can be totally unrelated. Just because you have a small pouch with the band and your capacity for food is diminished doesn't mean that when the pouch is full you won't still feel unsatisfied (or hungry). Allowing for only small amounts of food and providing satiety - well, that's the way the band is SUPPOSED to work, and that is the way it works for many - but you are right that it doesn't work that way for all. Too many people on here are quick to blame the person when the band fails to perform as it is promoted, even when they follow the rules. It not only is supposed to reduce your capacity for (healthy) food, thus promoting weight loss, but it is supposed to provide a feeling of satiety that keeps hunger at bay for several hours. Reducing capacity and reducing hunger do not always go hand in hand with the band and that is a flaw in the way it works (or doesn't work) for some people.

Obesity is a very complicated condition and is recognized by many in the medical field as a disease. An alcoholic who has been sober for 20 years is still considered an alcoholic. An obese person who has issues with food can still have those after weight loss. This article (from webmd) speaks about how hunger hormones can sabotage our dieting. And hunger is not all head hunger. While that many exist, I believe doctors use that term too often to blame the patient when the band isn't working as it should (despite following all the rules) Some Dieters Are Set Up to Regain Weight And I know many thin adults who eat all they want, don't exercise, and by their own admission have inherited thin genes and are lucky. So, not all thin people are these healthy eaters/exercisers.

That's okay. We all have off days. Good luck with your lapband journey. I think you will be successful.

If you were really serious about "paying it forward" and actually offering helpful advice then your thread would have been titled: Hungry? Here are some helpful tips. Feeling hungry? This is what worked for me. Some ideas for combating hunger pre-and post surgery. I could go on and on but you get the idea. Your thread title says it all, in my opinion. You were being judgmental, not helpful. And what you call honest and direct could be insulting and offensive to those who have a problem with hunger and get slammed by many on these boards.

Yeah, I can see how calling someone's post about being hungry "bitching and moaning" is going to change their attitude. Who are you to say that because they post about hunger that their attitude needs changing? This is the smug, superior attitude that turns so many people off.

Thank you. You obviously "get it" (what I was saying) while the others who criticized me seem clueless. I don't know why someone (who hasn't been banded all that long) would feel compelled to start a thread saying "your bitching and moaning is not only hurting you but others" about complaints of hunger. That type of post is counter-productive, in my opinion, and can scare away those who have problems because there are so many smug, judgmental people who post here and they fear their criticism.

Here's what the thread starter (on that other forum) -called "your bitching and moaning is hurting not only you but others": Instead of posting about how hungry you are during the pre-op and/or post-op diet: take that time to ask yourself if you are really hungry remind yourself that it is only for a short time find something to do to take your mind off of the hunger reassure yourself that it will all be worth it in the long run smile! Sounds to me like her post would fall under his opinion of "bitching and moaning" and was not only "near" what he described but was exactly what he described as bitching and moaning. So my reply to her was in defense of her problem which I DON'T consider bitching and moaning. And your defense of the criticism of the so-called bitching and moaning is annoying. :grouphug:

Seriously - what part of "I took the OTHER position" (from calling this type of post bitching and moaning") don't you people understand? Learn to read the whole post before you criticize - better yet, read my responses on that other forum. :smile:

I was not being rude. I disagreed with the thread starter (on the other forum) who called your type of posting "bitching and moaning" (when someone complains about being hungry). I was taking YOUR side. Didn't you understand when I said I took the opposite opinion of the person who characterized these posts that way? And then I offered some advice. Go back and read my post. Geez.

Obviously you haven't been following the thread on "general lapband surgery discussion" forum in which a thread was started calling your type of post "bitching and moaning". I took the other position. Of course you're going to be hungry because you haven't had a fill and your capacity for food and hunger is pretty much what it was pre-band. A lot of people will tell you to make sure you get enough protein and Water in each day. That is important but you will probably be hungry until your get your first fill or even after that until you reach your sweet spot. Just continue to follow your doctor's advice for post-band diet and food choices. I was on a liquid diet for 2 weeks post-op but like I've posted before - WLS surgeons are all over the place with their recommendations. The phrentic nerve that causes hiccups when irritated is close to where the band is placed and I think it just gets irritated when we eat. If you only do it once, it's no big deal. Good luck to you.

I do not agree that hunger is mental. Having an appetite is a sign of health. But obesity doctors and researchers are finding that appetite, hunger, and satiety are very complex issues and there is much evidence that appetite hormones grehlin and leptin play a role. These hormones often set dieters up for failure or cause them to gain weight. They can delay the sense of satiety or cause one to eat more than they should to reach that sense. It's not as cut and dry as those who would make it on these boards - like just saying it's mind over matter. If that were the case, why would you need the band? You should have been successful without it just by overcoming that mental hunger. If the lapband works as it should -i.e. you reach your sweet spot and you feel satisfied for hours with just small amounts of (healthy) food - that is great. BUT- that does not happen for everyone despite doing everything they are supposed to do on their part. And so, if those people complain about the struggles with this journey and the hunger they feel, what is the big deal and why even start a thread about it? Just ignore them and wallow in your successes.

If I were in that room and someone walked in and said "I'm starving" I'd think (or more likely say) "Thank God, someone else who feels like I feel. I thought I was the only one." This WLS journey is not easy from start to finish for most of us. There might be a few who breeze through, have almost no pain, no hunger, reach their sweet spot, don't have sliming, PBing, get stuck, have reflux, heartburn, no shoulder pain, reach their goal weight fairly quickly and have a great support system - but that is not the experience for most of us. And if some people have some difficulties along the way and they want to vent - I don't see how that is hurting anyone - especially those lucky ones who post about how great they are doing. Those people should just move on from those posts, be grateful for all their successes and hope that someday the tables don't turn on them. Just as an aside - all of us have tried many, many diet programs. Haven't we all been on Weight Watchers? I remember going to the meetings and a woman saying "I'm never hungry". Really? Then why does every person you know who has been on WW drop out at some point and you hear so many say - "I'm going back to WW - I lost ___amount of weight but gained it back" If you weren't hungry and liked that eating program and it works so well, why didn't you reach your goal weight and stay there? Because many people lie - and want to paint a rosier picture about their situation that what it is. I think that happens on these boards, too.

BJean - there is plenty of money being made out there - even in this recession - and it is the wealthy getting richer. The middle class has lost trillions in the decade of decline that took place during the bush years. They lost earning power and the value of their retirement, 401k, savings,investments and homes all went down. The republicans voted against every job bill even the most recent to help small businesses (which they are always yapping about). They voted against a bill that would have helped keep jobs here and not be shipped overseas. From the moment Obama was elected they weren't interested in building up American - they just wanted to tear down Obama. The sad part is that they are going to take the rest of us down with them.

A new poll just showed that 71% of American receive Social Security, medicare, medicaid or unemployment. These programs are popular as is government money for education, infrastructure and helping the poor (the rest of the poll showed). This is the so called big government that the tea partiers rail against. So, I wonder how many of these people will vote for the "smaller government" the republicans are promising which would require reducing or eliminating these programs?